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What if Energy was (Nearly) Free?

anvilmark asks: "Sci-Fi and sci-fi games often incorporate the romantic idea of 'free trader' ships with ports of call on a myriad planets across the galaxy. Recently I was toying with the physics of propelling such ships and their cargos out of a gravity well and realized the astronomical amounts of power it would take to do it (not to mention interstellar travel). This led naturally to contemplating how cheap energy would have to be in order to make this activity profitable. To make a long story short (too late!), I began wondering what would happen if the introduction of fusion power takes energy costs from pennies per kilowatt hour to pennies per megawatt hour (or GWH)? How do you envision the world changing if energy costs became a trivial part of economic equations?"

17 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. Not sure fusion energy would help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    To get delta v, you need two things: 1. energy, and 2. reaction mass. "Free" energy wouldn't help with #2.

    From a SF perspective, though, what "free" energy would help with is terraforming. If you could afford to create free oxygen from oxygen bound in a planet's crust for next to nothing, and warm the planet for next to nothing, then you've got the problem pretty much licked, except for weather control.

  2. change change change by daeley · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How do you envision the world changing if energy costs became a trivial part of economic equations?

    Somebody will undoubtedly declare war on somebody else. ;)

    Go read Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson

    --
    I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
  3. Heavy Water Depletion by Radical+Rad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I envision the oceans eventually being depleted of economically recoverable tritium and deuterium. It might take a while, but the oil fields of Texas were once thought to be an endless resource. Maybe before that happens we can build a Dyson Sphere and blend in with the rest of the universe's dark matter.

  4. Energy Situation at Universities by Katamai · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am not sure about many other Universities around the country... but electricity for some universities is purchased in blocks. Basically this means that it costs just about as much to turn all the lights off in labor as the added cost of just leaving them on all the time. I wonder if energy costs for the average consumer decrease then might we see more of this type of thing in the American household. Longer lasting lights would also add to this happening.

  5. Hosting Charges by simsj · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I suspect that this would drop my hosting chages. About 5 years ago, I was charged mostly for bandwidth and RUs. Now they don't care so much about how large it is as how much juice it uses.

  6. Free Energy -- too cheap to meter! by crmartin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've done a lot of thinking about this myself, and it turns out to have some interesting implications.

    First, it turns out that the cost of electric at the wall-socket is not dominated by the cost of production, but by the cost of the power grid. If the power were completely free, cost/kW-h at the home would only go down by about 50 percent.

    On the other hand, cost of electricity does dominate the cost to make aluminum, steel, and many chemicals: profits would immediately go up, and costs would quickly drop precipitously for everything from cars to Tylenol.

    Free electric power wouldn't in itself make space travel cheaper, but if you have cheap fusion you can either make fusion rockets, or extend VASIMR. If you can get thrust high and exhaust velocity very high -- say tens to hundreds of km/sec -- then you can quickly start doing things like going to the Moon with constant acceleration. In other words, a trip from Earth to Moon could be quicker than a trip from New York to Boston today.

    Waste disposal would change radically -- give me enough power and I'll just do mass spectroscopy on a plasma made from the wastes. Call it 'mass mass spectroscopy' -- out the end comes pure (isotopically pure, if you care to do it) oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, and so on. This will be very handy for Lunar exploration, as it makes possible the easy separation of 3He from 4He; 3He makes for good fusion fuel, and 4He ("depleted helium"?) makes for cheap reaction mass or lots of other things. On the other hand, it makes uranium enrichment much easier as well -- throw in yellowcake, and out the other end comes O2 235U and 238U.

    If lunar 3He production is economic, so is production of hydrogen (either from fossil water or as a byproduct of 3He production) as well as oxygen, nitrogen, argon, potassium, thorium, and so on. (See KREEP.) Add O2, N2, and lights to a lunar lava tube, and you've got living space and farms -- with cheap power.

    1. Re:Free Energy -- too cheap to meter! by crmartin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Long term, you're probably right -- the cost of steel, copper, aluminum for the transmission lines goes down. That'd be competing with the obvious pressure to move power generation closer to the users, which would be balanced out by capital cost and capacity limits -- you tell me what they are and we can make a guess where the breakeven would be. When I was thinking about it, it was with Bussard's notion of a "Farnsworth fusor" (see, eg, here, here, or here, or the Google search here.)

      This leads to a notional reactor that's 5 meters across, and yields 10 gigaWatts (6600 Amps at about 1.5 megavolts DC, and be damned to Tesla!) using proton-boron fusion.

      (Note: I'm not a physicist, and I'm not a power engineer, so don't come after me if you don't like these ideas.)

      The whole thing is basically a big empty conductive sphere with some accessories, so it shouldn't cost more than about $1 million, so we're definitely in the neighborhood of pennies to mils per megawatt-hour. But it's almost an embarrassment of riches: how to you deal with a city of, say, 5000? A million bucks is a feasible investment for a city that size, but what do you do with the 9.75 gigawatts left over?

  7. It couldn't happen by tickticker · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The actual production costs may go down, but they are probably way less than 50% of total costs.

    There is the infrastucture costs, salaries, maintenance, delivery systems (poles, wire, labor), and whatever else goes into producing the fusion reaction.

  8. some of the effects by evilWurst · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some of the obvious effects of near-free power:

    1) we'll use a lot more power, simply because we can. In some ways this will reduce combustion - electric heat in the winter, electric vehicles (at the very least, electric for short range vehicles and gas for long range). Appliances will have more features and draw more power both while active and while idle.

    2) Appliances will be less efficient. This also means they will generate more heat. Everyone will have air conditioning, though, because it'll be cheap to run. The extra waste heat will be enough, especially in southern cities in summer, to increase the local temperature (more so than now).

    3) new energy-hungry applications will arise that aren't developed now because of the power requirements. Non-portable computers will tend towards beowulf clusters because it'll be cheaper to buy N chips than single superchips.

    4) the power grid must be expanded to carry the increase volume of power. Depending on the fusion technology's specifics, this will either mean lots of small fusion plants, or large fusion plants and a lot more power lines. Power lines my be overhead, or buried. Expect lots more research on cheaper, warmer-operating superconductors. Expect the results to end up used in everything else, especially electronics.

    5) Less international conflict based on water supply - because desalination plants will be much cheaper to operate.

    6) Changes in travel, especially sea travel. You can't build a ship the size of an aircraft carrier right now without being a major world power, because of the expertise needed and fuel needed. Fusion may allow this, though. This will certainly make long range shipping cheaper. It would eventually effect people as well - many would choose a cheap two-day sea trip to cross the sea over an expensive and crowded plane flight, especially if it was a vacation trip on a budget and the scenery was good. (business-class travellers would likely still fly).

    I'm sure there are more, that's just the ones that jumped out at me after a few moments.

  9. Subjucticate! by rritterson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, if energy was free, then it would still be free today, and I'd imagine that most of the aftereffects would have already occured.

    However, if energy were free (note use of subjuctive), which i think is what you meant, I take the cynical view that it would only destroy ourselves more quickly.

    For example, it's not that we can't get to Mars via rocket today, we simply can't get enough energy crammed into a feasible size. If it were cheaper nothing would change.

    At the same time, you are assuming that just because the mass/energy ratio of fusion is much higher, that makes it cheaper. This is not the case. In fact, coal is an order of magnitude cheaper than nuclear power. Looking at current research into fusion technology, the extremely highpowered lasers and plasma contol technologies would be very expensive to build.

    --
    -Ryan
    AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
  10. Re:Global warming by AndyDeck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > But if energy was cheap enough, I'm sure we could come up with a way to increase the rate at which heat is radiated back into space, and/or decrease the rate at which heat is absorbed from the sun. :P
    >=Smidge=

    I've actually thought about this - and I believe that the answer lies in a discovery that was awarded the 1997 Nobel Prize in Physics - Laser Cooling. Now the technique as described is for cooling atoms to near-absolute zero so as to be able to observe them better, but with Unlimited Free Energy(TM), it should be possible to generate a huge super-cooled mass in space and drop it down to Earth for cooling.

    Of course, you don't need free energy to do this. Just go to the asteroid belt, capture a huge block of ice, and crash it into an ocean. For extra points, do this near the harbors of your enemies :) Just remember to check whether you have any allies within range of that tsunami you're about to generate...

    --

    The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life
  11. This is easy... by Asprin · · Score: 2, Interesting


    This is easy - if energy were nearly free, the whole world would turn into Las Vegas. Seriously. Because of the Hoover Dam out there, a typical household can run everything including the air conditioner for, like, $15/month. It's sickening.

    --
    "Lawyers are for sucks."
    - Doug McKenzie
  12. What would cheap energy change? by DuckDuckBOOM! · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Everything.

    Heavily paraphrasing old memories of Pournelle's A Step Farther Out: With sufficiently cheap energy, we can reduce toxic wastes to their component elements; turn the Sahara into farmland; give everyone on Earth at least the standard of living the US had in the 1950s; mine the asteroids; colonize our solar system and others; move industry into space and turn the Earth into a garden.

    And he's right. The cost of producing the vast majority of goods and services is heavily dependent on the cost of energy. Make that energy "too cheap to meter" (as was promised us when the first nuke plants were under construction - sigh -), and the cost of production - including raw materials - drops to essentially the cost of labor. And labor costs drop too: a well-fed, prosperous work force using exotic tools, e.g. diamond-tipped cutters or 8-way Xeon workstations, is much more productive than hungry, unhappy, poorly-equipped workers.

    That being said, if this scenario is taken to the extreme, the possibility of global warming from simple waste heat rears its ugly head. There are probably ways of dealing with that, but, given the number of times my power's gone out this week (lots of wicked weather), I'm not sure I'd trust the planet's viability to bleeding-edge tech. So it goes.

    --
    Life is like surrealism: if you have to have it explained to you, you can't afford it.
  13. Re:Global warming by maxume · · Score: 2, Interesting
    What about the kinetic energy of the object that you hurled into the earth? I guess the easiest way to deal with the KE would be to pretend that it was dissapated purely by heating your mass(and thus not the atmosphere), and as such, the only cooling effect your mass would affect is that from whatever amount of mass stopped moving. I don't feel like figuring it out more than that, but I don't think you would come out all that far ahead on the whole cooling thing, especially when you consider the rather immense amount of energy that comes in from the sun on a given day. Again, me lazy, but the sun is hot, the earth is big, and your blob is small. Absolute zero isn't really all that cold, when you start considering, oh say the relative mass of an ocean and whatever blob you decide to crash into the ocean or burn in the atmosphere or whatever. There is no possible way that your mass would end up cooling off a meaningful percentage of the heat from the sun, from say 25 minutes or something.

    If I'm not making sense, think about air conditioners having different sizes...in order to increase cooling capacity, the most efficient thing to do is to increase the mass of the coolant, not decrease the temperature etc, hence larger ac for larger building.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  14. Recycling would actually happen and make sense by Korpo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Most recycling is either simply not done or not sensible simply because of the energy cost. Would we have inexpensive energy, we could afford to turn coal into oil, or recycle aluminium (today the cost/energy ratio - as shown by a Danish gov't report - actually would imply that burning aluminium would be cheaper than recycling it). Most recycling is simply not put into production because of the enormous energy cost involved in breaking down the molecules involved in building plastics and other stuff.

    Low cost energy would also boost hydrogen technology, because the production would become very cheap. I don't know whether the same is true for Methanol, which is nowadays used for fuel cells (because hydrogen is too volatile for efficent storage).

    On a completely different field, it would amost nearly kill off a lot of jobs (in the Western countries). Since a lot of products are already overengineered today, a low energy consumption is one of the last advantages additionally built into products. If there is less need for enigineering solutions in such products, there will be less need for engineers.

  15. Zero Point Energy anyone? by jgoemat · · Score: 3, Interesting
    What if we could tap into Zero Point Energy? The idea of zero point energy is controversial, but it's interesting to think about. What if we could tap into this nearly limitless source of power in a small and economical way? Imagine batteries with ten times the power output per volume of today's batteries, but they would never run out. Laptops and palm-sized computers would be used everywhere. You could even replace that noisy hot power supply in your tower computer with a ZPE battery. People could begin living off the power grid. Everything could have a ZPE battery to power itself. I imagine this would lead to a sharp reduction in cost and widespread adoptation of wireless sensor networks. Hate sticking to your leather seats in the summer? Leave your electronic car's air conditioner on while you're at work. Maybe we could find a way to absorb heat and convert it into ZPE instead of merely transferring it to the outside.

    One of the biggest uses would have to be travel. Buy an electric car and never pay for fuel again. Start using propeller based planes or switch to super-fast electric trains. Maybe we could even have jets with ION propulsion. Ten times the propulsion for the same amount of fuel. Now we're talking about economical space travel. The cost of a trip to orbit could become affordable to about everyone. We could take the time to get to mars down from nine months to under 1.

  16. Free Energy = The Sun by Makarakalax · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I envision the oceans eventually being depleted of economically recoverable tritium and deuterium

    You assume that fusion is the only way. Personally, I see the world moving beyond fusion power fairly quickly. By far the best source of energy for our needs is the sun. Now I'm not talking about everyone having a solar panel on their roof, I'm talking massive scale harvesting of all the energy that usually is "wasted" going off to light nowhere. Say you harvest 500 square kilometers of sun that usually would only serve to show alpha centauri that out sun exists. This is an extremely unpolluting and excellent source of energy.

    The problems are three fold: getting the energy back to the earth, capturing enough energy for the whole planet and dissapating all that extra energy once it's used (lots of extra heat = nasty). I figure these will all be easy to solve over the next century.

    I'd be pleased to see my ideas come into being, but you must understand that in order to protect my intellectual property, I have a patent pending on the use of the sun (or any star) to facilitate life or living.

    Many thanks,

    Darl McBride