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How To Make Dual Booting A (Bigger) Pain
the_phenom writes "Thinking of dual-booting your Windoze XP 17" Toshiba P25 laptop? Think again - this one 'uses a DVD with an already setup version of Windows XP Home and then transfers it to the notebook's hard drive,' preventing the normal setup procedure and thus, dual-booting." This reminds me of the unfriendly practice on some PC builders' parts of including an OS "backup" only on a hard-drive partition.
Since when are Windows CDs a requirement for dual booting? I've installed a dual boot solution just fine WITHOUT any Windows CDs. That's on 98se, 2k and XP Pro. Worked like a dream and I simply did NOT need the CD, nor can I think of any situation where I WOULD need the CD. (then again, it's 5 am in the morning, I think I can barely be qualified as sentient atm)
So to put it in a simple way:
What's the fecking problem!?
Hate me!
How is this news? Tosh and other vendors have been selling PCs with only a "recovery CD" that wipes everything for years.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
One of my HP machines had a similar setup where Windows 98 (one of my older machines) was distributed as an image on 2 "HP Recovery CDs".
To install Linux on these boxes, I simply resized the Windows 98 partition down to 2 GB and used the other 16GB of freespace to install Linux.
"I filter at +6, and have yet to miss out on an important comment." (#822545)
How is this any different from the "system recovery" disks that have been shipping with laptops for years. I can't remember when I last bought a laptop that came with just a plain OS install disk.
You can call IBM and they will send you CDs for your ThinkPad. They don't usually come with the laptops from the factory because most people never need them.
Basically it costs less on their part.
Use Partition Magic to shrink the XP partition and create space for a Linux partition. How is this any different than thousands of other computer systems out there that come with a rescue disk to rebuild the system to the factory installed image? Yes, for the 1% of users that want to dual boot it will be a minor pain. For the other 99% of the users a rescue image like that is a godsend and saves support costs for the company. If the computer is completely hosed, stick the DVD in and reformat/reload. No need to pay a computer geek to work his magic on your broken Windows box.
If it's a regular Windows installation on an NTFS disk you can still install Linux by resizing. You can use either Partition Magick or the first disk of the Mandrake 9.1 set to resize the NTFS disk. Make sure to defrag the NTFS partition from within Windows first before doing this procedure or else the contents will be destroyed.
The problem seems to be that the image is the size of the disk so reinstallation of Windows, once Linux is already installed, will overwrite all partitions. It's just a complete disk image on the DVD. One workaround is to do the Windows installation, install Linux, use something like g4u to create a copy of your disk.
Or, use dd from the Linux partition to copy the Windows image once it's all installed.
Almost every laptop sold nowadays only come with restore cds, they never EVER come with a full copy of windows. HECK nowadays HP and Compaqs just have a partition called RESTORE PARTITION, and thats the only way to restore them because they come with NO DISKS! You have to contact HP or COMPAQ to request them for a small fee. And even then, they are only restore cds. Basicly your just paying for a licence. Which means legally you can go to Kazaa and download a Win2k ISO and just use the licence you payed for. Simple....
keanmarine.com
It isn't that hard. I had to do this with my Dell. Most systems now come with "image restore" disks instead of installation disks for software piracry reasons.
Now, to dual-boot all you have to do is:
1) resize your windows partition using any available tool (I purchased partition magic).
2) Install linux in the newly created free space.
3) Put the bootloader (I'm partial to Grub now) into the MBR.
And you're off to the races!
Of course, this means that if your windows partition goes south you have to backup your linux partition and start from scratch, but that's the risk you take.
It doesn't stop you from installing linux, it doesn't stop you from dual-booting. It is simply a quick and easy way to install windows for a fixed hardware platform.
Jason Pollock
Wow, I had no idea an Apple laptop would dual boot Windows and Linux!
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
here...r esize.htm l
http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfs
Now we just have to pour some resource into it.
Actually, the HPaq EVO D510's we've got at work came with a recovery CD that you're supposed to start with and a WinXP Pro CD that you put in during the recovery. If you just put in the XP CD, it boots and installs normally. I'm not sure if it actually works, because there is no key on the CD case, but I have been able to get as far as the point where it asks for the key. I suppose the recovery CD handles that part. If you could find out what the key is that they're using (I doubt it's the FCKGW one), you might be able to install XP clean.
;-).
Or, as clean as is possible
Anyway, maybe it's possible to just put in the OS CD, if you get that option with other vendors.
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
Why not just borrow a full install disk of XP from a friend? Surely this is a good example of fair use, considering you already own a license to the operating system, albeit a different copy.
[ home ]
Since CDs are such a terribly expensive part compared to the cost of a laptop. This seems like a really silly way to cut costs, if you ask me. Sure, most people will never need them, but if they do, it becomes a pain to fix the problem....
As others have stated, this is a non-issue.
My Compaq Presario 2715US came with Windows XP on a series of three CD's that will wipe everything before putting them back on. As far as I know, this is fairly common practice nowadays. The twist here is that all of the Microsoft applications (XP and Works) and the drivers are within the image, all of the other apps that came with it (WinDVD, Symantec Anti-Virus, etc.) are included on their own CD's.
It's easy to make a dual-boot. Resize the NTFS partition, and then install Linux into the empty space. GRUB or LILO will then install into the MBR, and presto, dual-boot!
The thing that I hate about XP versus Windows 2000 (and earlier, I believe) is that XP seems to deliberately clobber the MBR. For example, if I install Linux (and GRUB or LILO), then install XP afterwards, GRUB/LILO is gone, I have to use a boot-disk to get back into Linux. This pisses me off to no end.
As for those images... If you get Windows 2000 or Windows XP images, you've almost got a full-bootable copy. The image for my laptop was made with (I think) DriveImage, and I was able to get an evaulation copy of it, and it allowed me to extract the i386 (CABs) directory. From there, I just had to borrow a few files (like setup.exe, etc.) from a friends' XP installation CD (which indicently came with a Dell laptop he bought), and make it bootable according to Bink's pageOf course, not knowing fully about how Windows XP's activation works, I didn't want to just make a copy of his XP install CD, in case it was keyed for a Dell laptop. And, just in case, it somehow cut him off. :)
-- Joe
The Knoppix CD has QTparted. This is a great GUI wrapper for various tools to partition and resise partitions. You can even shrink NTFS partitions. The Knoppix CD boots to Linux without doing anything to the hard drive. It is great. Free download of ISO image is available.
/boot partition.)
You can also use the Knoppix CD to install Debian Unstable to the hard drive. 2 warnings:
1) It will put LiLo on the MBR. ( I prefer to put it on the boot record of the
2) After hard drive intall it will first boot with KDE in German! It is hard to find the right GUIs to get it into English. There are instructions on the internet on how to find these GUIs.
Religion is the main cause of atheism.
there are other partition tools besides partition magic. such as parted, and even ones that come w/ various distros of linux.
imho, this whole article is BS. the reason computer makers utilise these "restore" disks is for their main customers, people who have no clue and just want to be able to point and click. They realise that those who know what they are doing will get around it, and do what ever they want anyways. quit bitching, its pointless, and stop acting like your wheaties just got pissed in or something.
also, since when do you need windows disks? resize the partion, and hell, you can even use the boot.ini to boot to linux, dont even need to screw with the drives MBR.
its not hard people, get over it, and constantly looking for reasons to jump on the "M$ sucks, DAMN THE MAN" bandwagon over every miniscule little thing. choose your battles, you just make us look stupid.
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms,
Why do people think this is some sneaky move, and look at MS. It's simple WinXP pro, for example, is 1.6gig installed, thats almost a gig bigger then a normal disk. So install takes a long time as it resets everything up. Having it on a dvd not compressed and allready set up makes perfect sense. It's for a laptop, very static hardware. For a regular user being able to put a disk in and it copys everything over and your good to go is a great thing. I also bet this was more of toshiba idea then MS's. They arn't building these things with the intent of dual boot, just doesn't make sense to worry about something 0.01% of those who buy one will do. Why not make it nicer for the 99.99 percent that will use it like normal.
Also to other, I don't think any PC maker has included a straight off the shelf version of windows in nearly a decade. No computer I have bought or seen bought by someone had a true real version of windows with it. When you buy a computer from any OEM it comes with a quasi version of windows. This is no differant. Except if the HD crahses of have to re-install you can now do it in a few minutes instead of over an hour.
Dell lets you go through a standard OS install. And it is because of OEM licensing. M$ apparently doesn't produce OEM CDs for their OEMs, telling them to make their own. Dell's CD simply checks to make sure you have a Dell BIOS on the system, so you can only use the CDs on other Dells (vendor-specific, not model-specific).
I have a Toshiba laptop with the same recovery disks (3 CD's instead of the DVD, but the same concept).
It was a bit of a pain at first, as I did have to buy System Commander (which is very cool as a boot-loader and as a utility) to get around this. Since the install image is NTFS you'll need Partition magic 7 or 8 or SC7. Not sure if there is a freeware utility to munge NTFS partitions.
Once up and running, I took a snapshot of the resized XP partition and now I don't need the recovery disks. It is nice though that Toshiba installs all of the drivers for you, and that the system works out of the box after re-imaging.
As for running another O/S on this laptop, Linux and Solaris are VERY well supported, so I don't think I'd give up this laptop just cause of this slight inconvenience. The laptop is a 1415-S173 Celeron 1.8GHz which has a beautiful screen and was $850.00 new with rebate and 512MB. In short, it kicks price/performance ass.
Contrary to popular belief, life is not a bitch. It is far far worse.
My sister and I bought identical HP computers a while back, and after some troubles we needed the rescue CDs, and HP was more than happy to send rescue CDs to us, just not the right ones. Long story short, I have 6 sets of rescue CDs in my office that do me no good, and a company I'll never buy computer parts from again.
The other problem is that with the model of HP I had (and assumably most other models as well) you had to buy a special copy of windows directly from HP (presumably with a huge markup on an already over priced product..) in order to get most versions of windows to work at all.
Moral of the story is, plans like these hurt the consumers and help create/maintain monopolies. It's too bad THESE situations wouldn't get taken to court...
Shoot Pixels, Not People!
Back when I was a Windows admin (I've also cleaned the toilets at Burger King, which is almost as bad) it was very easy to create a scripted install so that you could just pop in a CD and it does the rest. You could (and probably still can) do this with the standard retail distribution CDs and the Windows resource kit. The real reason for these crippled "restore" CDs is to prevent people from copying them or selling them. It has nothing to do with making the installs any easier.
> Since CDs are such a terribly expensive part compared to the cost of a laptop. This seems like a really silly way to cut costs, if you ask me.
You're not used to dealing with manufacturing hundreds of thousands of something.
In those quantities, pennies count. In this context, a CD that's not needed almost all of the time is indeed an unwanted expense - multiply the cost of that CD by x00,000 and you've cut a big slice out of the overall profit of the product.
I read this article yesterday. I promptly emailed the editor. Here is a copy of my email.
r esize. html
To Whom it May Concern:
I have recently read an article on your website claiming there is no way
to set up a dual-boot system on the new toshiba laptop. This is not true.
There are now non-destructive ntfs filesystem resizing tools for linux.
I personally used a live-CD to resize my windows partition before installing
debian. I know that Mandrake comes with the tools by default and has the
option for resizing windows partitions (NTFS) from the installer.
here is a link to the FAQ:
http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/info/ntfs
I hope you can attach an editor's note so future readers will not be
misled by this article.
thank you,
david tansey
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
If lead time is an issue, use the CDs as an incentive to register your laptop. Check the box on the warranty registration form and you get the CDs in the mail.
Of course, requesting the CDs gives them permisson to send you tons of junk mail.
Here's some stuff you wouldn't realize until you made the mistake of buying one.
1.) Toshiba's now come with a "BIOS-less" system which means that windows controls all the hardware and you can change NONE of the settings, which makes installing linux a real pain in the ass, but it is still possible.
2.) Toshiba's have a problem of having their own "helping" software that when you boot with a net connection it will call home and download "updates" automatically for you. One such update was for my model to cut the clock speed in half.
3.) Every toshiba I've owned has horrible battery life, you might as well consider them a computer with a built in UPS and easy to move around, and not a "portable laptop".
4.) Toshiba has a little problem with laptops overheating (hence the lawsuit) and certain parts melting.
5.) Toshiba's only selling point is their spec sheets, but as far as being a good purchase you're in for some real problems down the road, I have yet to meet someone who hasn't had some part of their toshiba fall apart and cost less than $100 to fix.
All-in-all these laptops aren't that great, while they pack the latest and greatest they aren't exactly stellar machines. Overheating and hardware failures are certainly nothing new to toshiba's and I would recommend everyone read reviews of ANY laptop model out there.
Remember while it may be cool to have a laptop usually there is something sub-par (make sure you check the waruntee by the manufacturer and highest screen resolution). And ALWAYS remember that if you have the opportunity to grab an extended or three year waruntee for less than $150 then go for it. The battery WILL die, you WILL lose a key on the keyboard, you WILL drop it at least once in 3 years, and something WILL die in it. These are not model specific by any means, these are general laptop things.
Hope this helped ...
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
Really, what's up with that? I think XP Home is made for people for whom this would be a total non-issue.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
My sister and her husband bought an absolutely horrendous piece of crap Packard Bell several years ago. It came with one of these lovely discs that wipe your HD and restor it to a "factory state". (Windows, with a sheitload of annoying, not to mention buggy, PackardBell spam and adware)
At some point the computer finally gave up and collapsed under the weight of all the spamware it had been subjected to. They gave me a call and asked me to come over and take a look at it. I told them I'd pop over later on in the evening. Unfortunately, my brother-in-law decided he'd try to fix it before I got there... with Packard Bell's image disc. Financial records, their digital cam photo collection, my sisters grades (she's a teacher), and a thousand other useful things... Gone. Toast. Whoops! I took a red magic marker (the kind teachers seem to have oodles of) and labelled the offending disc "EVIL!". That was about all I could do.
I'm sure my sister and her husband are not the only tech-unsavvy people who have fallen victim to these image discs of EVIL, and they've never even heard of Linux! These discs have been around for quite some time and I'm sure any manufacturer that uses them gets plenty of tech-support calls as a result. The only reason to use these discs seems to be that they let manufacturers include all sorts of annoying and useless software with their name on it. Frankly, it's a stupid practice and it hurts more than just Linux users.
Just to totally avoid pure FUD, I feel a few things should be noted:
2.) Toshiba's have a problem of having their own "helping" software that when you boot with a net connection it will call home and download "updates" automatically for you. One such update was for my model to cut the clock speed in half.
This was for Intel's Speedstep tech. This cuts the CPU down when the machine is idle in order to conserv on battery life. Mhz programs will read the CPU as half-speed, because your machine isn't doing anythign else...which leads to:
3.) Every toshiba I've owned has horrible battery life, you might as well consider them a computer with a built in UPS and easy to move around, and not a "portable laptop".
I'm not saying it was right for them to force those updates on you, but I hope you can at least see the connection.
First of all, -1 Troll.
./ is all about, right? I have said it before and I will say it again, like Linux advocacy, Mac advocacy is an effort at ensuring the tools I want and need are available to me in the future given the overwhelming market forces arrayed against "alternative" platforms like Linux and OS X.
:-) I routinely make backup images of my hard drives to an external hard drive just in case something happens. A simple restore takes care of this issue.
:-)
Oh, please. Seriously?
Second of all, we don't all use Macs because we don't want to.
Fair enough. It's weird though, after trying OS X, I will never again use another OS for my work if I can help it. It is seriously efficient and has replaced in my workspace: 1) IRIX, 2) Win2k and 3) Classic MacOS doing everything in one box what the three OS's did in three boxes.
It's that simple and I wish you Mac zealots would get that through your thick heads at some point and quit bludgeoning us with your evangelism.
The parent post expressed a problem that is easily resolved by using OS X. It was a suggestion and a point for discussion. That is what
you can use Virtual PC on this Toshiba laptop just as well as you can on a Mac (it's a Mac and Windows product, you know),
Very true. But then you are using a Toshiba laptop and not a sweet little Powerbook that provides good run time and performance in an elegantly designed and functional package.
Why should you need to spend extra money just to be able to dual-boot your computer?
I agree with you. Ideally one should not have to spend any extra money to get a dual boot environment. I too was running a triple boot environment as of last year. However, this year I have consolodated all of my software libraries and standardized on a single environment that is more efficient for me and I still get a webserver and workstation running at the same time.
But the story posted here seems to be nothing new. Few PC's I've seen lately come with regular old Windows install disks like you can get in a store. Most of them come with "restore" disks that simply put the drive back in the condition it was when you bought the machine.
There has been a trend toward this for years. Remember when OS's came with paper manuals? These were replaced by (often inferior) online documentation. When Microsoft got so big, it made financial sense to attempt the scenario you describe by not shipping boot disks at all. After all when you have 95% of the market, 50 cents saved per license adds up.
Of course, this is of no help if you somehow type "rd windows" at a DOS prompt by mistake or something and don't need or even want to actually format the drive.
Routine backups are of great importance here.
Still, I confess that I don't quite understand how this actually prevents you from setting up a dual boot.
Marketshare.
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There's also the support issue. If you give "average" users one and only one way to load their software, it simplifies your support procedure in many ways. When you let them do custom installations from setup CDs, there are many more variables you have to consider during support calls. I can't blame them for trying to make the process as simple as possible.
If profit margins in the PC market are as razor-thin as some say, you can be sure that any extra expense in manufacturing, distribution and support will be passed on to the customers as higher prices.