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Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
ksheff writes "According to this story, IBM is planning on introducing low-end SMP servers and deskside machines based on the PPC970. The machines would be able to run Linux and AIX. A 4-way machine is expected to cost less than $3500! IBM expects a 20x increase in the number of PPC Linux servers by 2006."
Something interesting: gcc on PPC doesn't generate code as good as Visual Age for C++ on PPC. Hopefully, as these machines become more popular gcc will become better on the PPC.
I found this article that talks about this
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
enemy-territory]$ file et.x86
et.x86: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (GNU/Linux), for GNU/Linux 2.0.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
>>>try to run that on a ppc and tell me how it worked?
Too true. Still you proved my point more. Yes, Linux on PPC backed by IBM is "Cool", but right now, EVERYTHING is based on the standard of X86 compatibility.
I have a choice if I go with X86. I like Linux, and if my clients like linux, all the better. I can offer it. HOWEVER, if they, for some reason, go with MSWindows, I can fdisk linux, and install Windows.
And remember, MS axed all but their X86 line back in going from NT4=>NT5. I know, on Apple PPC, there's Linux or MacOS. Guess what though? The way Apple's going through 3'rd party developers, I dont trust them. And I certainly wouldnt invest in their computers until I know they'll survive getting rid of MS, Adobe and others.
Point recap:
PPC Linux. Little hardware accessable. Nice server. Expensive.
X86 Linux. Mucho hardware usable. Very configurable. Cheap Cheap Cheap. Well supported by MANY vendors.
You are on crack. There are no boards for a quad xeon on pricewatch for under $500. Try 'dual' not four. There is a big difference last time I checked. Besides 4 xeons on a shared bus run like dogs. I believe the word is contention. Especially when they are only running 533 bus speeds. You would almost have to turn off prefetching to get any scalability.
...is that you're comparing a build-it-yourself solution to an OEM solution. The OEM solution means you don't have to spend the time and effort to build the machine, that there is a (hopefully) semi-intelligent person on the other end of an 800 number to provide support, and that if the machine goes berserk, they will be there to fix it under warranty. Two very different situations, IMO.
...for a machine that will kick the crap out of this great machine IBM will release...
Based on everything I've read thus far, it seems to me the PPC970 cheaps are substantially more efficient than their P4 counterparts at the same clock speed. Because of that, I hardly doubt a quad Xeon 2.4 system would "kick the crap out" of a quad PPC970 2.0 system. It seems you're exaggerating a bit--or perhaps you have something to backup your claim?
And when Opteron comes out...
Opteron has been out for close to 3 months now. Machines are available from several vendors. Google is your friend.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
You seem to be confusing 'expensive computer' with 'beowulf cluster'. Clusters have a great price/performance ratio for a small class of problems. Climate modeling, fluid dynamics, some life sciences, etc. The machines from IBM are designed to do , in enterprise speak, 'transactions'. SQL querys, web services, distibuted software, etc. A cluster makes a very shitty web server.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
True, it does explain some things. Mainly I se this as a push into the "We want low end, but server prices" pricing cap. I'm thinking of the Low End Sun's, Itaniums, SGI's non-X86,HP and other low end server stations. In that category, PPC running AIX or Linux sounds nice.
It's just crossing that low'end barrier is the killer. If you can make your app into a threaded app, you can send each thread to a processor and run them all at once. Beowulf. And you can use the really cheap stuff to do it it too. Google's already proved that X86 stuf is reliable for that kind of operation too.
It's when you need heavy transaction power is when you really go with AIX. Banks, Airports, and other time critical lookup and registration is when you need low-latency, high cpu and ram that super's have.
I still fail to understand why you'd want PPC linux rather than X86 Linux. You've just got more choices with X86.
That's 4U, not 4-way... big difference! Whoever contributed this link read it incorrectly. :(
No, you read it incorrectly! The article clearly states that the 4U configuration is 4-way and the 2U configuration is 2-way.
You've got to be kidding, right? IBM won't even bother to support Linux on their x86 ThinkPads, but you think they're going to design a PPC Linux ThinkPad?
The Opteron competes against the Xeon, not the itanium.
That's what Intel wants you to think. Comparing the best Opteron systems versus the best Itanium2 systems in the SpecCPU database - Integer performance is roughly equal and for FP the Itanium2 is roughly twice the speed of the Opteron.
But, on a dollars per unit work basis, the Opteron stomps the Itanium2 for both integer and FP and that's the secret that Intel is working really hard to keep their Itanium2 customers from learning. Really, the only place Itanium2 beats opteron is watts expended per unit of work, the Itanium will put out more heat than any other chip available...
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
You probably had the IBM Power 820
No, you only need special firmware on the card if you want the computer's firmware to be able to talk to the card. Modern OSes use the firmware for very little, or they don't use it at all. For example, on a PC, you can disable a hard drive in the BIOS, but Linux will still be able to access it (assuming it's not your boot drive). Linux accesses the drive controller directly; it doesn't use the BIOS.
So, you'll only need a special NIC if you want to netboot with that NIC. And you'll only need a special graphics card if you want to see the boot process on that card (you can use a serial console if you don't... at least these machies had better support serial console).
5: What about power consumption issues? Last I've seen the G5's, they gobbled power faster than an overclocked Athlon.
When did you last see a G5? A 1.8GHz PPC970 uses about 42W, while an Athlon XP 2500+ (1.833GHz) draws around 54W. I don't know how fast an overclocked Athlon would gobble power, but I'll note that the max power consumption of a non-overclocked Athlon 3200+ (2.2GHz) is 77W.
Oh right, because everyone knows that all ethernet cards are identical in terms of performance and quality.
I sure hope no one here has been taking any of your advice on enterprise servers seriously. Do you honestly believe that Fortune 500 companies pay for these hideously expensive service contracts with Dell et. al just for kicks? Hell, if they hired you they wouldn't need service contracts--a 24 hour Walmart could support the entire operation! Jesus, what are they thinking anyway?
About time someone brought that up. From MoL's FAQ:
Job's is going to freak when he figures this out. =)"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
While I agree that it's a bit premature to call the new plant a total failure, orders have been smaller than IBM expected.
Please alter my pants as fashion dictates.
gcc is a complete joke on PPC.
Apple uses gcc to compile Mac OS X, and pushes gcc for developers, so they've been doing their own work on gcc. The more compiler hackers that use PPC, the better gcc will become, no? Maybe this new machine will add some motivation.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
well, you better believe it, as the article actually say:
...
"The ULE models, which will run Linux and IBM's AIX OS, will ship in 2U two-way and 4U four-way configurations. A base configuration of the 4U is expected to cost less than $3,500, sources said."
And it is actually believable as it also points out:
"IBM will stress better performance than Xeon-based servers, 32- and 64-bit compatibility with no migration costs or penalties, and linear price scaling from two-way to four-way systems."
This is a key feature of power4's design: the ability to have low cost multi processor systems (apple ships 1-way 1.8Ghz at $2.4K and 2-way 970s at $3k -- same configuration)
>Of course, if they ever DID come out with a 4-way
>PPC system for $3500, you'd better believe it would increase
>the hell out of how many people run Linux on PPC.
>I'd sure as heck buy one!!
tell me about it
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
I doubt this is connected at all with Apple's 970 offerings. IBM is already moving their AIX heritage to allegedly scaleable Linux, which is cool in concept (if unproven), and they are replacing their own Power architecture with PPC 970 - this is simply IBM staying in the UNIX server market - within their own strategic initiatives. A move I welcome, as it gives me at least a hope of a second non-Itanium based UNIX vendor 5-10 years from now.
They can pry my MIPS based Irix boxes from my cold, dead fingers - but someday I'll feel differently (when those boxes are really old and no longer supported). When that time comes, I'd prefer not to run Itanium (I still don't trust Intel for serious server work) and I'd prefer not to run Solaris/UltraSPARC - I trust Sun even less than I trust Intel - at least since they got all corporate.
What I REALLY hope, is that HP decides to offer HP-UX on either Itanium or PPC in the future - giving customers like me a choice not to use Itanium... HP has dealt with IBM before - and it worked (LVM is feature starved, but rock solid).
The desktop discussion (Apple or Amiga clones) is really non-sequitor - though it could be an interesting side-benefit of the new servers...
If i want more raw speed I start up in fluxbox or another wm with less overhead than KDE. Like the guy said, he wants to be productive, and Xwindows gives him that productivity out of the box. If he would go your path he would get huge slowdowns (have you ever tried loading an X11 app on top of OSX?)
It would be very beneficial to Apple to watch KDE even closer and employ more of its methods (they already use konq). The many customizations can be hidden in an advanced configuration manager.
Have you ever tried to run linux/xwindows on ppc? it's really simple, you can try mandrake 9.2, very nice and speedy distro.
Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
But it doesn't actually say that the base configuration comes with 4 cpus at this price. It's very common for IBM and others to offer a lower price configuration with empty cpu sockets for later upgrades.
Sun and Wintel both have an advantage with blades. They may not be as fast as IBM's offerings but they cost only %15 as much. 100k for an AIX RS/6k despite the advantages is unacceptable to all but a selected few who are now cutting costs.
However these machines are not workstations but blade servers. If you want a fast risc powerpc workstation I would suggest the new Apple G5's. They have more software, 6.4 ghz internal bandwith, serial ATA, PCI-X 800 mhz bus, and other goodies. Not to mention you can run MS-Office, games, and other apps.
Linux on anything non intel really just includes OSS software. Not really worth it if your willing to spend big bucks.
http://saveie6.com/
The multitude of X86 cheap stuff doesnt work on these platforms. You probably pay 3-6 times what you'd normally pay for NICS and GFX cards. Apple does this all the time.
That's funny -- I just got back from CompUSA, where I paid all of $15 for a D-Link 100baseT NIC that will work with both Macs and PCs. The exact same trick works with most SCSI cards, several flavors of NVidia and ATI graphics cards, and Creative's Soundblaster line.
It's been many, many years since PCI cards for Macs cost substantially more than their PC counterparts. Like, almost a decade now.
And here's the thing: in many cases, those Mac cards will work unmodified in Linux-on-IBM/PPC servers and workstations. Also, occasionally, in Sun kit. Reason is, the "BIOS" in the PowerMacs, IBM's e-Servers and all of Sun's hardware is the same: OpenFirmware, AKA OpenBoot. Once you've set up your PCI card to support OpenBoot on one platform, it supports them all, and all the platform vendor has to do is write an OS-level driver for the card.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
1. OSX is unix. Click terminal.app, you're looking at a tcsh shell. Bash is bundled. So is perl, python, tcl and, yes, AppleScript. There's even a full-fledged IDE for AppleScript.
2. ImageMagick compiles quite happily on OSX. You can get binary packages from Fink.
3. AppleScript is merely the most visible frontend to what Apple calls the "Open Scripting Architecture" or OSA. You know all that neat process-automation you can do with the GIMP because it has a scripting language built-in? You can do that in almost every MacOS Classic and OSX application ever written in the last decade via OSA, and you can do it in not only AppleScript, but any scripting language that supports the OSA interface. Which, at last check, is just about all of them.
From the sounds of it, you've got your workflow pretty well optimized for your needs, so I wouldn't suggest that there's any overwhelming need for you to change it. But by saying things like "OSX only helps the computer illiterate" when by the looks of things you haven't the faintest clue what OSX is, you only make yourself look like yet another troll.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
Actually, IBM appears to be devoting some time to working on GCC support for PPC. In particular, they are working on auto-vectorization (i.e., you write scalar code and it gets turned into Alti.., er, VMX code).
Rather than give you a whole bunch of details about what "I" do that will add a lot of noise to the discussion, I'll point you toward the actual tools that may be of help in creating your own workflow:
scarse for command-line calibration and profiles work (pre-built rpms can be had at the rpm search sites, see also patches if you want to compile yourself.)
And of course these days there are also additionals things that you can do some tasks related to color management:
Photoshop and some other tools from device vendors in the Windows world will run under Crossover Office (I use PS6 mysefl).
Some basic (very basic) stuff also exists for GIMP if you are so inclined.
VMware is helpful if you need to run applications in a real Windows environment from within Linux with device support, including support for USB.
Finally if you are a coder you may find littlecms to be useful as well.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
4U means the physical size of the server. 4-way means that there can be as many as 4 CPUs in the box. It doesn't mean that there are 4 CPUs in each server. Base configuration means the bare minimum of equipment (cards, memory, HD) and software (Linux, AIX) that will ship with the box. Mostly likely the $3500 box will have 1 CPU as a starting point. Companies then can estimate the final box fully loaded.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
No dude... you're wrong.
t n/tn1167.htm l#Section1
Here, this is from Apple:
"Hardware-specific code still exists in firmware (ROM) in order to handle the computer's start-up activities. This code fits into one ROM called the Boot ROM. The Boot ROM has the hardware-specific code and description of the hardware needed to start up the computer, as well as to boot an OS and provide common hardware access services the OS might require. One part of the Boot ROM contains Open Firmware. This Open Firmware implementation is significantly improved over versions of Open Firmware found on older PCI-based Macintosh computers. In particular, the device tree and Open Firmware drivers are much more complete."
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"