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Will Munich's Linux Desktops Be Running Windows?
An anonymous reader writes "Remember that story about the city of Munich choosing Linux to power 14,000 desktop computers? One aspect of this story that most people don't know about is that up to 80 percent of those Linux desktops will be equipped with VMWare, a virtual machine emulator, under which they will run Windows and Windows applications. That's right, folks: The majority of those 'Linux desktops' will be used to run ... Windows." This Gartner report from early June seems to be the one mentioned in the article, though I'm not sure exactly where Thurrott gets the 80% figure.
amplified greatly by Thurrott.
Listen to this nonsense: up to 80 percent of those Linux desktops will be equipped with VMWare. Well if .01% of the desktops run VMWare, this statemtn was still true. The 80% figure if menitions nowhere in the Gartner report Thurrott is supposedly quoting.
Look at the name of Thurrott's site. Look at the rest of the pro-MS crap he writes. This boy is shaking in his boots and crap like this is his only possible response.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
The article asks the source of the 80% figure. The original report is here (in German). On page 34, footnote 1, there is the assumption that 80% will be using VMWare for 4 to 5 years.
Terminal Server seat licence costs about the same as an XP Pro licence. So there's no savings that way.
Microsoft stopped offering "machine independant" site licences in probably 1998 or so. All the newer licences require the customer to buy a new licence for each new machine. (At least in the US - can't say for Germany.)
So if/when they upgrade hardware, they are either going to have to continue running an ancient version of Windows (with no support, security fixes, etc); or purchase a new Windows licence at the full retail price -- not cheap.
The article did indicate that their current setup was pretty old (Windows 3.1 even), but if this isn't managed carefully, they could end up paying a ton of money for Windows licences on top of what they are paying for SuSE, VMWare, etc. And Microsoft is going to be very, very interested in auditing these guys.
On top of that, using VMWare does not make all of your Windows management costs disappear. They are still going to have to do most of the stuff normally required to support Windows, plus the Linux admin.
- Save as RTF (but your docs are probably too complex for this)
- Save in Word Perfect format (may still be conversion erros; I don't know)
- Convert to PDF using Ghostscript
- print to file (PCL, Postscript, or whatever is appropriate for the printer) and ftp it, netcat it or copy
/b it (for LPT1: printers) to the printer
You apparently already have a method to transfer your data file to the school computers, so all of the above are adaptable to your method.originally. MS came up with a few extras that made them 11-15 million cheaper.
they also submitted a few comments that suggested that they had read a report they shouldn't have had access to
This makes sense to me, as I am doing the same thing to finally migrate over to Linux full time.
In fact, this approach has me using Linux MORE than when I tried to only use Linux apps.
By having a Win4Lin desktop running Window 98 just one click away, I feel much less silly with my self-enforced migration to Linux.
When I absolutely have to use Windows, it's there for me - no re-booting necessary. The majority of the time I can use the Web, etc. in Linux, and thus slowly, smoothly determine how much of my day to day tasks I can actually accomplish using open-source things like open office.
In other words, having Windows there is making me use it less!
I think, therefore I thought.
Check the history. If you Google for Gartner and OSS/Linux etc., you will see that Gartner's reports are ALWAYS pro-Microsoft even when their supporting arguments are very weak indeed. So no surprise there.
By comparison, Bloor Research reports are usually positive about Linux and Open Source in general.
Most likely GSX for the desktop app needs. ESX is more for reducing TCO for enterprise datacenters. The cost per 2 seats for GSX is $2,500. I'd imagine they are getting at least a 20% discount for buying 5k+ seats worth but it just dosent make business sense to me. If I were a tax payer in Munich I'd be extreamly pissed off that that they wasted soo much money. Rember, they are not just buying VMware, they are also purchasing SuSE and paying someone (IBM I belive) to set this mess up, & they have to train an untold number of users.
Just for the record, there is NO "off the record" record.
Make a record of that.
I suspect that the actual users will become highly motivated to run VMware as little as possible and will soon learn to love linux (as they should).
Speaking of Office, I just downloaded OpenOffice 1.1 and oh boy I'm I impressed. If you haven't downloaded and seen it in action boy will you be shocked. Makes you wonder where OpenOffice will be a year from now?
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One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
The windows remote desktop client can attach your local drives so that they are visible on your remote desktop.
I presume then that it's a case of implementing this part of the protocol in rdesktop.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
According to their web site the copy of VMware included in SuSE Personal and Professional is a time limited demo and not the full version.
I like the idea of VMware but not for $300 a shot. $100 per copy is more like it.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
r0 only has addressing restrictions where some load/store forms use the register 0 value in the encoding of the instruction to represent a 0 in the calculation of an address. There is no restriction on the usage of r0; it does not have the hard value of 0 like MIPS. It is a regular register.
my take:
many european governments are VERY paranoid (perhaps righyfully so) about being dependant on software that is seen as "US based" -- especially Microsoft.
Munich symbolically (and financially) supports a local software company (SuSE) and also symbolically thumbs its nose at Microsoft, whom it is grudingly dependant on for the time being.
I beleive the article is basically credible. Later threads go into more detail.
I'm surprised this article made it to slashdot as well, but for different reasons. The original article was a major coup for linux beating microsoft, and here it seems that the "victory" is basically only headline deep. Few would debate the lack of anti-linux or pro-MS stories on slashdot, so im surprised this one made it through
(fwiw i heard about this elsewhere several days back)
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
The Gartner article suggests that many of the desktops are based on Windows 3.1. It may well be easiest just to have a VMWare window with an old Windows 3.1 app or two rather than try to host this old stuff through servers.
Germany is the only country in the world where this MSFT practice has been shot down in courts as a restraint of trade. AFAIK In Germany you can recycle windows licenses and they cannot be tied to machines and you can resell them as well.
In btw: I see nothing wrong in using vmware as a transitions strategy. Been there myself until openoffice reached a point where it became really useable
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
I daresay they won't need to buy any Windows licenses. Their existing Windows 98 licenses will work just fine. The usual reasons for buying new versions of Windows is for new hardware, support, patches, or integration with Active Directory. As Munich will be using Linux as the host operating system they can run older versions of Windows (in VM sessions) forever.
It's very likely that they already have their Windows licensing "in a row". Remember, they're currently running a mixed environment of Windows 95, 98, NT and 2000. I don't think Microsoft is allowed to dictate which computer (or VMware session) the license is for. At least, not in Germany :-)
Also it's likely that they got VMware a bit cheaper than $300/copy. Buying in bulk you can often halve the sticker price (or better). If they paid more than $150/copy for VMware I'd be very surprised.
Finally, the Windows licenses are one thing, but the Office licenses are another, and the client-access licenses are another. Windows is pretty cheap compared to Office and CALs. By switching to OpenOffice and no CALs they'll be saving millions.
"Bei der Ermittlung des Mengengersts fuer die Lizenzkosten VMWare wird fuer;r die WiBE21 davon ausgegangen, dass fuer ca. 80 % aller PC-Clients (14.183), d.h. fr 11.364 PC-Clints [sic!] je eine VMWare-Lizenz beschafft werden muss." Quelle: Projekt Client Studie der Landeshauptstadt Muenchen: Entscheidungsvorlage, V1.11 vom 23.01.2003
in english:"The determination of the quantity structure for the VMWare-license-costs for the WiBE21 we assume that approx. 80 % of all PC Clients (14.183), i.e. for 11,364 PC Clints [ sic! ]one VMWare license each to be procured."
Conclusion: anonymous reader is well informed.The article reads: "...such as vmware...". This is very speculative of nature. Why not run Terminal Server if you have to? It is a lot less maintenance and you can us rdesktop or tsclient from the Linux machine. Performance will also be better.
These analysts seems terrified of Linux on the desktop. Why?
Microsoft lost.
Claus
Restarting the virutal x86 environment in WMWare is so much faster than rebooting.
This is a good transition move for Windows users as well!
Yah, but upgrading/security fixes are not that important for a VM. I revert my w2k vm multiple times a day. Who cares if I have a virus for 20 minutes, I hit revert and it is gone. (or make it non-persistent)
Since they may only be looking to support their legacy apps, they only need their legacy OSs in the VMs. You don't need to run your 1996 custom app on Windows 2008, you can continue to run it on Windows95 in a VM. Get it to work in a VM, take a snapshot and you are done. "Legacy" implies that it wont be changing very much. Any major changes should include a port to Linux or the web.
Joe
Joe Batt Solid Design
All in all a very well written post, but in my ongoing crusade to purge bad information wherever it rears its ugly head, either delibertily or by accident, I must make the following correction. I know, it's a stupid and more or less irrelevent thing to nit pick, but I figure if nothing else people can learn exactly how large national economies stack up, so it has its merits.
Germany is a very economically prosperous nation, and they are the nation doing the best in Europe, but by no means are they the approx. equivlent of the US. Really, no one is near the US, but here's how things break down for those curious. (All numbers taken from the one and only CIA World Factbook) National GDP (yes, it accounts for currency changes) of all nations with at least $1 trillion in GDP, starting at the top, all numbers in trillions:
And for those wondering, the world as a whole has a GDP of $47 trillion, meaning just these 10 countries make up $31.584 trillion of that, and the US almost 1/3rd of that.
This has been another Bloodmoon Empire service announcement. Carry on.
Request: ECM unit, 1000 km fullerene cable, 1 tactical nuclear weapon. Reason: Birthday party for foreign dignitary.
1. Good quality X server
Only useful if you need to run X11 apps. So only useful if you perspective is "we must go OSS!".
2. Stability
Bullshit. Modern Windows is stable.
3. Use of standard packages.
You don't get much more standard than Windows. 95%+ of desktops worldwide.
4. Incremental user familiarity with the OSS environment.
See point 1.
5. control of upgrade path.
How does using windows stop you having "control"? You decide to upgrade, you don't decide to upgrade.
6. More choice than that provided under a win32 environment.
I beg to differ. There's far more high quality apps under Windows. Before you scream "VMWare!" at me, you can always run VMWare under Winodows with Linux, FreeBSD, whatever as the guest.
So, in other words, your post is one big "OSS ROX" post. Sometimes, you don't need to say it, it's there between the lines.