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MMORPGs - Ruined By Non Role-Players?
Thanks to RPGDot for their new editorial discussing why actual in-character roleplaying in MMORPGs is dying out, as more and more 'action fans' are being attracted to RPGs. The article suggests: "When you take an MMORPG apart to analyze what it is, you discover pretty quickly that it's mostly a huge graphical chat room... the role-playing aspect of an MMORPG is nowhere in the [priority] list, which leaves the few poor souls who are willing to do so in the dust, grinding their teeth at the l337 speech they are subjected to." But it seems in-game bugs and glitches make it difficult for even the most hardcore role-player to keep in-character: "It's hard to sustain a willingness to role-play when the mindless android in front of you swallows your shuttle ticket without so much as an apology."
This happened with MUDs, The Realm, UO, EQ, and is still happening today. It's nothing new. Perhaps if there was some way that players (of higher levels???) could reward roleplaying, and make it an important part of the game. Even automatic filters/penalities for using leet speak? Use something akin to the grammar checking programs in various work processors to figure out your 'roleplaying level'? At one point I would have said GMs could help in these efforts, but there are too few of them, and they are always just fixing problems in the games for the most part.
The Best solution would be if quests required some degree of roleplaying (thus actually making it a roleplaying game), instead of just having to kill something, find something, or deliver something.
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I don't play any MMORPGs, but from what I hear, they are all pretty badly made, with all kinds of bugs, glitches, lag, etc.. That right there would discourage me from remaining in character if I played.
Hopefully Blizzard's World of Warcraft will be of much higher quality and they will take steps to encourage role playing. This will most likely be the first MMORPG I play, and I look forward to some real role playing. I hope they deliver.
Are there any MMO's out there that have community or operator based moderation? (i.e. a way to tell if people are good role players, or just don't care.) It would seem that you could divide most game universes into two - one for real role players and another for everyone else who just wants to chat. If you step out of character one too many times the system operators could warn you; and if the behavior continues, they'd simply kick you from the 'Real RPG' universe to the 'Big Chat Room' universe. You'd still have fun playing the game the way you want to play it, but you're not interfering with those who want to play it differently.
The only MMORPG I was ever "serious with" (I had dabbled in the free trial of AO and the AC2 Beta, but neither of those took an hour of my time total) was the SWG Beta. If you've read any of my other comments, you'll know what I think of it (as a "game" it sucks). Thats not the point, however.
The problem with Role Playing in a computer game is that you are artificially limited by the constraints of the game. If the programmers have decided that you have to get past (kill) target A to get object B, then you have to kill target A to get Object B. In a "true" RPG (DnD, or whatever "flavor" you prefer), there is a DM who may *want* (or goad) you into fighting target A, but in the end, you could at least attempt to bluff your way past it or sneak around or whatever. Also, in a PnP RPG you can interact with your environment in ways that a MMORPG cannot currently let you. For instance, I've never quite been able to walk through tables or other party members in DnD, yet in SWG you have a rather incorporealness that, well, breaks immersion. Also, the NPCs can be only so engaging. If I told an NPC to "blow off" in a PnP game, he'd "hear" me, and react accordingly, whereas unless its a specific encounter, if I type "blow off" to a random NPC he'll simply ignore me.
So it all comes down to the Game Master. Without the human interaction, its very difficult to stay in character, IMHO. Of course, one day that might not be the case, and there isnt anything wrong with MMORPGs, other than they are in fact glorified chat rooms most of the time.
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
Sadly in America imagination is rather dead. All the online RPGs have been reduced to Diablo-like play and sadly, due to the current cultural trends people in the US have a complete lack of imagination. After DM'ing for over a decade I have see a massive transition in play style. Now all that players do is dig through a manual and "Min-Max" their characters. They have no sense of role-playing, they mearly want to maximize their statistics realative to the game mechanics. I gave up role-playing about 2 years ago due to the fact that I could not find people with any sense of what role-playing is. The richness of teh American imagination has been replaced by spoon fed crap and television. The quality of role-playing can be measured by how much a person reads. It requires imagination to read a book (without pictures) and I see year after year book stores close and literature section sin the big "Chain" book stores fill up year after year with self-help books, technical manuals, and New Age religious crap.
My 2 cents
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
I have to confess that I am both a a pen-an-paper role player and an avid computer game player. I have noticed this problem is mainly to do with, as people have already said, how you let people go about the tasks they are presented with and also what tasks they have to do. I have been involved with Neocron since it ending its open beta stage. There are elements in Neocron which could allow for more traditional GM (Games Master) situations as there supposed to be players out there which can effect the world by creating and removing problems. The problem is that the majority of on-lien gamers want a more in-depth UT2003 or even just a simply blaster like Quake.
;-)
Not many people are ardent enough gamers that they would be willing to put up with those who didn't want to role-play when they did. It is a lot easier not to role-play than to stay in character. I think that there should be be games which take more traditional role-playing elements such as GM's, open ended situation and missions and the like. Dues Ex 2 is promising to maybe such a game, although this is of course not an MMORPG by any means but it does show that FPS lovers and RPG lovers can find a game which they can both play.
I suppose in the long run it's a bit of a pipe dream to have a proper RPG based MMORPG or is it? I guess as always it should be the case of if see something you want done, do it. I think it'll be cool if proper role-players took even GURPS system and using the mod-happy Half Life 2 engine made a free, open ended RPG world. It could work... maybe... ok probably not. I can dream though.
How can you say that civilisation's do not advance... in every war we invent new ways to kill you.
I used to play a lot on a MUD where they had both an age requirement (18 or over, or no go), and roleplaying was required. If you didn't roleplay, the other players simply started to ignore you, and sooner or later the admin would give you the "start acting your role or look for another MUD" deal.
It did have a chat channel for out of game-talk, though. I pity the soul who used it for metagaming talk...
I think I'll start playing there again. I miss it.
Leveling up builds character.
where someone will be paid minimum wage to play an in game "Non-Player" character. Much cheaper then inventing AI. Give them a script for some events and have them wing it on other occasions. Of course, if you have too many people playing NPCs it could get prohibitively expensive.
Or you could offer someone free in game time or items if they spent a certain amount of time playing a character. It would be kind of funny if teenagers could earn minimum wage sitting behind the counter in a virtual shop, just like they can IRL.That's a good point. The people you are referring to act like its a privilege to play a MMORPG and you must abide by the RPG rules to play them. Sure, they'd be much happier that everyone would be playing them like RPGs, but how long would that happiness last before Sony (or whoever else is running the servers) decides that there aren't enough people playing the game and decide to cancel the service, as was recently (or will recently be) done with Motor City Online.
The role-players should realize that without all of the '1337' action-gamers, the producers of the game would not see it as a profitable endeavor.
It's like sex, except I'm having it!
if its role playing, and you create your own character, then you can't possibly be out of role, because its your role. I can see this arguement holding water if you were playing an already established role, but for the most part, you don't. To put it in SWG terms, if you were playing Luke, Leia, or Han, I could see someone getting angry with you if you strayed out of line.
If its your own character, then its your own role and you can't escape it or betray it. That, to me, is the beauty of online role playing games. The universe you're in becomes much more than what you've already seen.
To me, those that complain are the ones that are really, really hardcore, those that demand that you talk in your characters native tongue, and not English, for example. Yes you exist, yes I respect your opinion, but there's a bell curve here, and you're on the edge, and that means you ain't ever gonna get your way, so long as the curve stays where it is. The converse of this in in your guys' favor though, because the people that don't even play according to the universe are few and far between also. What lies in between (the middle of the curve) is what exists in Online RPG's.
RPGs are however they are because the majority of people play the game in that way. That means that the majority of the people playing are happy with it that way. You've been outvoted. Take it or leave it.
The richness of a given social experience is directly proportional to it's significance, and the amount of options you have. If you have the option of acting maliciously if you so choose, then a positive interaction is more meaningful. In addition, a reputation or something that imparts a consequence to your choices is necessary so that you have realistic modes of interaction.
In "real life" social settings, there is no way to predict how a person will react. There is plenty of conflict - if a boss or co-worker takes a dislike to you personally, and attempts to ruin your career, they are allowed to act maliciously against you. In MMORPGs, because of the problem of persistence (I can buy a new account or make a new char, and my reputation is gone) the actions themselves lose value. This causes it to be far too easy to perform the negative actions out of dislike, and combined with the polarizing nature of the Internet.. we've all seen the flame wars via e-mail or bulletin board, you end up with people who only interact negatively, ie "Griefers."
As long as people are forced to interact with kiddie gloves such as no attacking, no stealing, no kill stealing, no harassment, no aiding monsters you are fighting, no disrupting a wedding, then you remove a lot of the conflict and interaction between players. When you remove the conflict, things get boring.
In addition, the worlds themselves are very static and unmalleable. Is it really easy to roleplay killing the 50th spawn at a given camp? What exactly are you doing there? Why are you killing these bandits? Why don't they go away? It's a really forced world architecture, meant to be condusive to one thing: Killing and powergaming, not roleplaying. Are there other ways to do it? Sure. Have any current MMORPGs gotten there? Nope.
I can't imagine anyone rolepaying in an environment as antiseptic and conflict free as one of an MMORPG. To blame the playerbase for repeatedly acting in the same way with the same environment and constraints is to ignore history and then complain when it happens to you as well. The choices that are required for meaningful interaction are tricky ones, because they require treating people like adults and policing the player base. These are two things that most MMORPGs seem unable or unwilling to do currently, so I suspect it will be some time before you see a rich roleplaying environment in an online game. But to blame the players for only interacting with the game in one way (powergaming) when that's really all the options that are given to them, is to assign the blame to the wrong party.
It's not just that adventure gamers are `ruining' the experience.
:)
I used to play Dark Age of Camelot. Excellent MMORPG, as well designed as they come. But I've long since stopped playing, because the experience was just too artificial.
In a pen and paper or even a computer RPG, the world changes in epic ways as you advance through the story. But because the world of an MMORPG has to be consistent for players, the world cannot change too much. For example, the king of the fairies will have to always be there, you can't guide empires to ruin, buildings stand forever-- the sense of changeability that is otherwise present in RPGs is lost. So is mortality, because you respawn. You might be penalised, but your character can't be dead and gone. Where then is the comradeship? Can you really feel for an immortal character as you would for a real companion (well, RPG companion)? There's a good reason D&D players become very attached to their characters, and spend a lot of time mourning their deaths, but it is partly that mortality that makes their journey perilous and exciting.
I think some of the MMORPGs out there really are very good, but they lack a certain je ne sais quoi that story- driven RPGs have. And that is a problem with the melding of genres, rather than who's playing them. I recognise that there are many more issues to consider, but i feel that this is one of the major ones.
Just my 2 cents.
You are telling me it is easier to roleplay while making it all up over a coffee table, than it is in front of a computer game where you look like your character, move like your character, get to interact with mobs, explore a true virtual world and basically see what it is you are talking about? Oh and do it in realtime...
Who cares how buggy it is, it has to be a step-up from rolling a dice to see how much damage you do (yeah like that is real...).
In fact having fewer uber-geeks who have memorised the rule book, and look at me funny when I order quiche from the tavern vastly improves my gaming experience.
While it's not quite in the league of MMORPGs, there are numerous Persistent Worlds set up using the NWN engine. Some of these encourage/require active roleplay, usually through the presence of DMs who oversee everything, give NPCs life beyond scripted conversation, and reward roleplayers with experience or other in-game prestige.
The problem, of course, is finding a good PW and integrating yourself with the cliques and whatnot that have surely already formed there. Likewise, since these are usually run out of some guy's bedroom or dorm room on their home machine using an existing connection, you're probably not going to get the stability or scalability of a true MMORPG.
On the other hand, the personal touch can be quite nice. It's worth dabbling in, at the very least.
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when me and one of my freinds ran some MUDs we ran into this problem, left unchecked they would have devolved into a big OOC chat room, with little or no role-play. And some of the larger MUDs REALLY suffered from the OOC Syndrome. (btw, OOC = Out of Character) with almost every message being a global OOC, with some of the Admins even happy with this, running all manner of OOC games/quizes for free exp.
The nonRP thing is partly because of the Admins, of course, if the admin PCs don't set an example, or reinforce nonRP behaviour, then the online enviroment will devolve into an interactive chat. Or if there is not proper incentive to RP, meaning that experience gathering and item farming is 100% from just plain game interaction, and not social interaction, then people will not roleplay, since it is not required.
Our solution was to make higher-advanment contingent on the admins, meaning you had to RP quests socially to advance. Guilds were also good to enforce RP, since most guilds were controlled by people who knew the admins, and had respected status, they enforced RP within the guilds (all of which were storied) and kicked out non-RP players and blatant PKs, and since not being in a guild wasn't advisable in our MUDs since you were fair game without backing, and got no favors from patron gods.
When I was a god on NeoGeno I offered good items to those who RPed their devotion, and did RP quests, with some in game elements and mobs included, but used within an RP framework. Also having good roleplayers causes it to spread, people want to fit in with clans/guilds who have killer rep and resources, and who RP well, and have a damn good story.
One little code snippet we were working on before we lost our server/interest was to have two classes, RP and non-RP characters, like Bad Trip did with PK/non later in its life. People who pick RP auto-ignore OCC and nonRP globals, gain levels faster, can use better EQ, and have PK free areas. Also the admins would favor the RP people in all global quests, and arguements. The nonRP people would have access to a nonRP channel, but not Tells, and could here globals and such, but not Quest channels. They couldn't Pray, and weren't safe from PK at the healers, unlike the RPers, who were safe from PK there, and there were no penalties on nonRP PKs.
As you can see the whole setup has to be indicative to RP, RP has to be a goal during the actual implementation of the code, AND you have to tweak the social enviroment to make RP better for gaining levels and eq (positive reinforcement). But I really don't think the Sony or anyother MMORPG maker cares if the game is RP or Chat, since you still pay for it, and there are more chat people out there than RP people, so it is a better market.
Personally, when I want RP I'll stick with the remaining MUDs out there, or paper&pen RPGs.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
We are a group developing from scratch a GPL'ed MUD/MUSH in Spanish based on Tolkien's Middle Earth. Of course it's not intended to be 'massive'. But we expect it to be fairly populated, and in spite of that we think that people in it will remain mainly in character.
We are working hard to achieve that goal, and we have some guidelines and ideas that hopefully will aid us to get rid of l33t people.
First of all, our targeted audience is people in the Spanish Tolkien Society. That give us a strongly motivated public, which will surely enjoy themselves more from a good role-playing than from a killing session.
Second, it will be quite a bad idea to go out there carelessly hunting orcs... because the damage/healing system is intended to be reallistic. It means that if you get hurt it won't be just some Life Points down, you'll have a broken leg or a poisoned injury, and you'll have to be in bed for in-game months to be healthfull again. And only if you don't get killed. No magic potions (remember Frodo?). So, only warrior characters will go to battle, and it will be dangerous.
Third, it will be difficult and dangerous to travel. People will stay at home, and will have social intercourse with their neighbours. Of course there will be adventures, but mostly those that just delay dinner!
Fourth, we will not ban out-of-character speaking... but we will mean it to be rude! 8-D (This is an idea of mine). We hope to introduce a culture in which newcomers, that are not aware of this social rule, will talk about not Middle Earth subjects, and then everyone will get scandalized!
In summary: our game will not be a huge graphical chat room, because it will be socially designed to be a parallel reality not a videogame, and only people in character will enjoy it. Wish me luck!
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
Ever since I saw it, when I think of roleplayers, all I can think of is that short internet video that has a bunch of characters sitting around a table (with a monster in the kitchen looking for beer or something), doing their roleplaying thing. It's just hilarious, and I really wish I could remember the link/title etc.!
I don't know about RP'ing, when I play games it's to have fun - occasionally it may involve some RP'ing - but I'm not going to be 'forced' into playing a role all the time. I know the hardcore RP'ers always have to point out that an MMORPG is, in theory a ROLE PLAYING Game (usually typed just like that), but let's face it in computer-land an RPG means you have a character(s) with stats and upgradable weapons, armour, magic/psi powers etc. That is the 'vernacular' I believe for a CRPG.
The majority is out there playing and having fun, and sometimes I can't help but resent the roleplaying types - at least the 'aggressive' ones that feel you should play 'their way'.
The problem with modern online role-playing games is that the vast majority of players are simply playing to win. "Win" is defined, in their opinions, as increasing experience, beating quests using any means necessary, and aquiring gobs of "phat l3wt".
Why? Because the game engine is spewing tons of this kind of information at them: stat points, hitpoints, experience, weapons which do Xd6 damage and have Y enchantments, etc... Numbers, numbers, and more numbers - none of which have anything to do with true role-playing. If nobody had told you that you were supposed to "role-play" in one of these games, how would you even know to do that? The game doesn't tell you. And it certainly doesn't encourage that kind of behavior.
If the social aspects of a game aren't directly included as part of the gameplay itself then the vast majority of players will ignore it. If the developers spend 95% of their time coding game math and 5% on features that encourage social interaction, you shouldn't be surprised when 95% of the players don't role-play their characters.
This is a tough topic, for me at least. I love Role Playing Games. I started with D&D back in the day and I have continued ever since, switching to computer/console based RPGs after my 'friends' ditched me.
I really do enjoy people who Role Play, ya know, assume a role and stick with it. This does not mean the l337 h4x0r posing as a level 5 mage. I want the game to keep the concept of role playing. However, not everyone sits behind their computer with a Jolt Cola in one hand and a direct copy of Sting in the other (the guy even told me it changes color when orcs are around, but I haven't had the chance to try that feature out yet) like I do.
But this poses a problem. There are not many of our kind out there (which is probably for the best), but those of us who are out there are prone to just a tensy wensy bit of elitism. We become less tolerant of people in the community who are not as extreme as we are. We want a different game than they do, but when we subscribe to an MMORPG, we are subscribing to a Mass Multiplayer Online Community. Let me say that again, Mass Multiplayer. That does not mean just those of us who are really really into RPGs, but everyone else too.
So what's the solution? Good question, thanks for asking. Maybe different servers, based on your extremism, ranging from the l337 folk, to the SCA folk. We cannot let our elitism scare others away from our community. Be kind welcoming, don't punish people, give helpful suggestions, they work better and establish a lot more good blood in the community.
DISCLAIMER: I am a big SCA fan.
Well, that's my two cents
I'm more than well aware of the people who believe that role-playing is some pure, unsullied ideal which everyone who plays these games must aspire to. I deal with them far too often, and wish they would find this role-playing nirvana they're after so they can leave me the hell alone. However, I think most of these people would be better served taking acting lessons than playing games.
Role-playing games are not the same as acting. Some of them get a good approximation thereof (like Mind's Eye Theatre stuff from White Wolf and a hard-nosed DM on a Neverwinter persistent world) but what your looking for is over there with all the theatre majors. Final Fantasy VII isn't an acting game, it's a role-playing game. The term has come to define that style of game, and all kinds of variations on the theme, but acting ain't a part of it. Most MMORPGs that have ever been are just the same kind of thing with you able to talk with tons of other people and interact with their versions of Cloud Strife, Tifa, Cid, or whomever. Frankly, Warcraft 3, Shogun: Total War, Quake, Half Life, and just about any other non-puzzle game in existance is as much an acting game as Everquest, Baldur's Gate, or any other so-called "role-playing" game.
I actually like acting, but a game is at best a mediocre stage, and online gaming is the worst of the lot. There are people who have a blast doing it, and more power to them, but acting like the rest of us are ruining your performance is sad.
I would love to see more role playing in MMORPG's. However, I would not consider the lack of it "ruining". There are *lots* of reasons I really can't bring myself to log into Everquest these days. (I used to MUD then I Everquested for *cringe* about three years - I have not tried any other MMORPG but I do read the reviews...)
1. Dynamic Content. When I bought Eq, I figured some of my monthly payment would go to create a continuously changing world. The changes don't have to be major, but it's pretty crazy how well nailed down things are in Eq. People know exactly where and how frequently important monsters appear, what they drop, and what level they are. When I started there were things called "GM events" in which the rules changed and actual people ran encounters. Sure there were problems, which have been solved by basically not having such events.
2. The Time Scale - realistically I can play about 2-3 hours per week. Past a certain level, there is really no way for me to advance because no group will accept you for only a couple hours. I don't blame them. These people play for many hours straight and its too difficult to find a replacement - it may literally take hours - so I would be wasting all their time. Further, people won't take you seriously if you can only play for a couple hours per week and, since joining their group may cause them to get killed and thus waste more of their time, they will not accept me. Again, I don't blame them it is not worth the risk to join with someone who is, potentially, going to waste your time.
3. The large death penalty - I can accept my own character's death and loss of experience. However, I cannot leave (potentially) five other people to suffer the penalty just because of me. It can take a great deal of time to get "rezzed" which restores some of the lost experience and getting a "rez" must be done immediately or it is not possible. My character is quite useful at gathering together our corpses after a spate of deaths so sometimes I find myself spending more time online than I can really afford. At lower levels this was not a big deal because the penalty was smaller and people are not as intense - often it is easy to get a rez from a high level just passing through or to call on a higher level friend. However, when you are rather high level, it is very dangerous for another high level to come and help you out. A single death may take hours of time to recover from in terms of getting a rez and regaining lost exp.
4. Camping - the safest and thus most accessable way to advance is to sit in one place and kill the same creatures over and over. I wish there would be some explicit reward for utilizing more of the game. Eq has a huge world, most of it unpopulated and some of it badly crowded. There are quests which access most of the game world, but there is really no benefit from most of these quests. If I spend about 10 hours camping in a certain place I will gain a level. If I run around and do quests for 10 hours, the experience I gain will be minimal and any gear I get will be rather poor - I could spend the time camping certain trivial mosters (called farming) and sell the loot to other players (mostly for tradeskills) and get far more than enough cash to buy better gear. Note: at extreme high levels there are good quests, but I'm not there yet.
5. Training - dungeons in Eq are great! However all those twisty corridors and narrow points become death traps if a single person - usually not in your own group - makes a mistake and leads a monster (or a few...) to you. Why not make a copy of the dungeon for each group which enters? I believe other games do this. It would certainly benefit Eq. This would go great with dynamic content. Why not make random changes in dungeons each time it is created - and why not have the computer judge the strength of the party as it enters to set up challenging battles?
6. Lack of alternative paths - currently there are three paths: gaining experience, money/gear, or t
a war on terrorism? How can we end a war on a method?
I'm seeing many different opinions of what roleplaying *is*. So I guess it's no surprise that no game seems to be able to live up to everyone's expectations.
To me, a shining example of good roleplaying is when the character does something that the *player* knows will be really bad for them, but the character wouldn't have. I've almost never seen that happen in online games.
But to me, the biggest problem with nearly every online game I've tried is mentioned in the article, but I don't think it's a "roleplaying" thing. It's language.
One of the reasons I like games is... immersion. Escapism. I can come home after a bad day at work and go into a world where magic works, where the good are rewarded, and where I can slay great evil beasts.
That is almost *totally* destroyed when there is a continuous scroll of "lol!!!!! I 0wn3d j00r k177!!!!" type stuff. To me, it destroys the immersion and snaps me back into the real world I'm trying to escape when I meet an elven princess who immediately says "greetz!! grp me!!! grp me!!!"
That's one of the main reasons I abandoned EQ and DAoC (the other being time). Take away the immersability, and I find it hard to see why anyone would play any of the MMORPGs.
- Muggins the Mad