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iTunes: Don't Leave Home With Them
BadDoggie writes "Politech is reporting that your 'ownership' of music purchased from Apple's iTunes isn't what everyone considers ownership. According to the license, 'Apple may use technologies to verify' that you have not 'use[d] or attempt[d] to use the service from outside of the [United States]'. This includes Canada. Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S." Update: 07/25 16:23 GMT by P : The post to Politech says the songs would "disappear," not be deleted; from the context, it seems they were merely unplayable, not deleted. Update: 07/25 21:34 GMT by M : Apple has contacted the guy, and is apparently making him happy. However, the question remains: Apple definitely doesn't want people buying new songs from outside the U.S., but do they intend to generally permit foreign users to reauthorize (in effect, retain access to) the songs they have already purchased? Apple's policy is very unclear on that point.
Or one more reason to break their stupid DRM. After all, if you do leave the USA, the DMCA doesn't apply to you while you're on foreign soil, so you can then legally crack the DRM and make a proper backuup copy.
According to the article, you either have to volunteer the change of address info to Apple, or change the address on your credit card.
So, don't tell Apple you moved and tell your credit card company that you lost your card and need a new one.
You won't be able to purchase new music, but at least you won't lose your existing songs.
Exactly! And by the way, if you burn all your purchased songs to CD soon after you purchase them, then you don't risk losing them if your system goes ba-bye.
I'm sure those burned CDs still work in Canada.
Can you play US-bought CDs if you take them into Canada? Do the RIAA's distributors have any say in the matter?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
All sales are final etc. If it's a sale, can they unilaterally withdraw the sale based on a spurious interpretation of their terms and conditions?
That is crap. RIAA folks are clearly insane, but I am still not going to believe that they demanded this utter nonsense from Apple and refused to license the music to them, unless they make the playback of songs (bought in the US) abroad impossible.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Perhaps they're just trying to stay legal.
although i can't condone the fact that his songs no longer work, i feel i should point out two things.
1st, no company has yet gotten authorization to distribute musical content outside the US. i'm guessing this is a record label issue.
2nd, in his case he had to reinstall everything. it asked to reverify his address, but he'd changed his address on his credit card. it was Canada now, not the US. not sure what else they could have done. if they sell songs outside of the US, they get in big trouble.
if he hadn't wiped everything, his songs would still be working today.
the "technology" they used to verify he was a US customer was his credit card billing address.
(which makes me think that someone could try a PO box in the US and then get their mail forwarded to Canada and get around the US restriciton)
True. However, you can usually do it the other way around (Play US discs in London) since most DVD players available in the UK aren't region restricted. Except, of course, the one my flatmate purchased - I had to use the PS2 and the RegionX software.
What bothers me is that this person paid for and downloaded music from Apple. He doesn't say explicitly, but he infers he was not trying to buy more music, just listen to what he had already bought, and after "reauthorization" it either disabled or deleted his purchased music. This would mean that Apple considers anyone playing music purchased from them to be actively using their service, even if they are not connected to it.
What happens if I buy 100 songs, and then cancel my account with the music store? Will I lose the ability to play those songs? Does Apple consider that I am still using their service even if I have cancelled my account with their service?
I wasn't able to find the TOS easily, looks like you have to sign up to see it. But, from what appears to have been pasted, the customer is restricted from actively using the service, which implies that the user may not purchase new songs.
It did not seem to include playing music previously purchased. Can someone with the TOS post a link to it or at least cut-and-paste the parts that relate to this issue?
Is Apple interpreting their TOS to include user activity while not connected to Apple? Is simply using the Apple computer and software to listen to purchased music considered part of what they offer?
Usually, in order to "use a service" there is some form of connection involved during the use, either event driven messages back and forth or constant link. Does Apple's software send information to Apple for each song you play?
I can accept, and it makes a lot of sense, not to allow songs to be delivered to users outside of the US for various legal reasons. It would also cut down on cc fraud by not allowing US accounts to download music outside of the US. I can also accept not allowing new accounts to be created if the user is outside the US. But to disable purchased music, preventing the purchaser the ability to listen to it?
IF the music was "rented" or "allowed to be played as part of the service" it would be one thing, however, since Apple's own web site says "Buy it" or "Buy song" certain ownership rights are implied. When you buy something you usually have certain ownership rights. I wonder if deleting or disabling something after it has been boughtconstitutes any form of criminal or civil fraud. Software companies wanted this ability, and UCITA (or was it UTICA?) would have given it to them, but I thought only a small number of states actually passed laws that let that happen.
Apple's web site also mentions ability to create music CDs that you listen to in your car, etc. from the songs you download. They can't disable those CDs, and they are giving you the ability to create a CD single just as if you had bought it in the store, further enforcing the concept of "ownership" for the purchased song. ["Ownership" in this case means right to listen to song on any equipment you choose and in the method you choose, not ownership in that you can give away copies.] Apples disabling of the songs (or deleting them) is inconsistent with the rest of their service. That inconsistancy would seem to be important if someone were going to pursue this (IANAL, so I may be full of it, wouldn't be the first time).
I'm really curious (and amazed and aghast) at this turn of events and Apple's response, if any.
I can certainly see Apple needing some of these restrictions. I guess now we know why the *AAs have been pretty quiet about Apple's music store. I just attributed their silence to a lack of selection of music represented by the *AA, but given this, and some of what I read on Apple's web page today, it looks like Apple negotiated something with them already. Which is fine, would make good business sense, and if true would mean those wanting to boycott *AA may have to boycott iMS too. Anyone know?
And here I've been planning to get a nice new shiny Mac, OS-X, and iPod (would have been my first Mac). I will definitely be watching this and consider the outcome here before I make any purchase. I'll probably just stick to cheaper non-Apple hardware and Windoze when necessary and Linux the rest of the time.
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
One of the complications that is slowing the opening of iTunes Music service in Canada is that borrowing your friends CD collection, and copying for your self is perfectly legal in Canada.
There are some strings attached, you're not allowed to sell or broadcast from the copies, for example, and you need to copy from originals.
The legal question is, are 'mixed' CDs composed of individual tracks purchased from iTunes originals you can copy from or not. The CRIA says "no, you can't copy from those CDs", the government says "yes, according to the law, you can."
what does that tell you about his service, if he frequently patronizes iTunes!
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
When I, from Sweden, open up iTunes Music Store it tells me:
...could be that Apple must consider customs regulations in Europe... and selling to me would be illegal export.
The iTunes Music Store is not available in your country yet. You will be able to browse music and listen to previews, but you won't be able to purchase music unless your billing address is in the United States.
Me thinks:
"yet" indicates the service will come to me. Thus it does not make sense they hunt me down now.
"unless your billing address is in the United States" indicates that if I just provide a proper billing address they dont care where or who I am.
Does anyone honestly believe that Apple has any REAL control of the iTunes Music Store? Agreements with the record labels had to be made. This is above all else, a money making venture, a software service to which Apple excels. And just to remind everyone, the reason we have DRM today is because people abused digital media in the past, and there is ample evidence to support that argument. Apple gives us more freedom than most, but just because it has approximately 4% market share doesn't mean the record labels give away all that freedom to the independently thinking few. When iTunes 4.0 was released, many people abused the internet file sharing feature and Apple taketh away.
Everyone talks about how the Music Industry's business model is outdated and needs to be changed to reflect the modern technology which exists around us. I think most slashdot readers would agree that classic music licensing schemes and sales models are rapidly becoming outdated.
By the same token, then, don't we need to update our expectations and buying models, as consumers? We can't insist on totally new business models without being willing to adapt to them ourselves.
It seems strange to me that everyone is so rabidly against DRM, when quite frankly anyone thinking about it comes to the conclusion that without it, some pretty ridiculous situations can result. Just because people do not, right now, ruin a band by trading its songs on services does not mean at some future point a service will become so ubiquitous and easy that it couldn't happen. Everyone forgets that the band AND the distributor need to make money.
Not to say I agree with all DRM. Oftentimes it seems like people go too far to the restrictive edge, "You can only use your music with headphones while a RIAA exec standing over you with a shotgun wards people off." I find Apple's DRM to be very reasonable, and it's also the kind of DRM that, should Apple finally kick the bucket, could be extended by another solution, even if the authorization service changes.
The poor fellow who's message is the subject of this article changed his home address to a foreign address. iTunes has no other way to tell if you're in a foreign country. I'm surprised it didn't let him authorize, but I am not surprised that it used that data to exclude him from using the iTMS. I'm sure that the situation will be rectified shortly. Apple can't afford to rampantly piss people off, and if you look at their decisions over the last 3 years you'll see in general their model has been consistant with that.
So please, Anonymous friend, instead of ceaslessly complaining about the end of an era, why not try and help shape the face of these new business models. We're at an amazing point as our society slowly beings to adopt digital media and computing on a mass scale. We've got a responsibility to make sure things turn out in a way that's equitable to everyone.
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"When reading the "Terms of Service", it says that purchases are not available outside of the US and the "service" is not used outside of the US."
Well, they've limited their sales to mac users, now they want to limit their sales to americans. They plan to become popular how?
From the blurb:
"Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S."
Talk about sensationalism. The article in no way mentions that the files were deleted. They just wouldn't play. Sheesh.
The solution to the quality loss when ripping mp3's is to burn to CD and then rip back to AAC, which shouldn't cause any loss in quality because it is the same compression scheme that you started out with. The only thing that will be different is that the DRM will have been erased.
1.) You can't reauthorize songs you purchaed if you move out of the country.
2.) You can't listen to them on anything that can't run iTunes (Macs, and soon Windows).
3.) You are dependent on the continued existence of Apple to be able to authorize the playback of them.
Yes, I know that you can burn them to CDs but those CDs will not sound as good as the ones you buy in the stores, unless you have poor hearing. In my opinion, CDs are still the best option, although copy protection threatens those of us who like to listen to them on open source
I've used the phrase that way since I was a child. I'm now 30-something. Move with the times grandpa. :)
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
Once again, my favorite game quote:
"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last loose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
-- Commissioner Pravin Lal, "Librarian's Preface"
Actually I've heard that foreign students choose Canada over the US because it's supposed to be the easiest and most useful dialect of English to learn. There is significantly less variation in accent throughout Canada than any other major English country (eg: Texas vs. the Bronx, Cornwall vs. Scotland) and Canadian English is supposedly easier to understand by people with other English accents and even easier to learn for non-English speakers. I have no idea if there's truth to any of this, but I've heard it more than once...
I don't argue that this thing stinks, and that Apple oughtta at least have a way for the poor slob to reverify his purchases regardless of where he lives, but: Remember DVDs? You buy one in the USA and good luck playing that disk when you go overseas and stick the disk into your friend's DVD player and its country code doesn't match. So there are lots of bad things related to DRM and this Apple iTunes is just the latest.
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
Better yet, import the AACs into iMovie and export them as AIFF, or capture the audio using Wiretap. (Unless you actually want a CD). I've done that for all my songs from iTMS, and if Apple ever prevents that I'll stop buying.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I'll never use emusic's service. I signed up for their trial offer, and I gave them my email address with -emusic added to it. Now I get about 3 spams a week send to that address.
Even if it wasn't their fault, they have never responded to my emails informing them of the spam, and by ignoring it, they lost me as a potential customer.
You can. Use Apple's own API to remove the DRM from the files. There's a 23-line java progam for exporting to AIFF and there's even a suite of commandline utilities for manipulating them. I used these tools to take an album I bought yesterday to work with me, w/out resorting to using a CD. A simple search on google reveals all kinds of tools for getting to the underlying mpeg4 data. You can only use these tools on a machine authorised to open the files, but once you have the data, you can export it in a variety of formats.
t'nera semordnilap
The reason for this is that music studios have signed contracts going back to the 80s, 70s, 60s, and before, which only cover the right to sell music in the US. Many artists sign with different labels overseas (this seemed the best way to go before the internet appeared, since each local label knew the most about marketing for its own territory). Anyway, many US labels don't even have the right to sell their music stock outside the country. Apple is just passing along this restriction.
It would take a MAJOR re-negotiation of almost every artists' contract to change this. That may eventually happen but it won't be soon.
The same thing happens with movies, btw. Expect on-line pay movie services to restrict viewing to the US.
So a company that will do anything necessary (no matter how unsavory) in order to maximize profits but whom we sorta like is to be lauded while another company that will do anything necessary (no matter how unsavory) in order to maximize profits is fair game for demonization because we sorta don't like them?
I understand now that you've explained - Apple is clearly better than Microsoft!
I give up. You win.
I spent a lot of time travelling between Australia, the US, and Japan. Three seperate regions. I guess you don't like people like me.
I'd admit, I tried to fight you. I used to buy CD's, but I can't play new ones on my computer anymore, so I stopped. I used to buy DVD's, but I can't keep track of regions and licensing, so I stopped. The same goes for games.
I wanted to buy from iTMS. It seemed convenient. But I'm not in the US at the moment, so I can't. Even if I did, it seems not so clear now what I can do with the songs I 'own'.
So what do I do? I don't like file sharing. Call me nostalgic, but I like to have the actual physical media. I like to support musicians, artists, and programmers.
But you media guys have tried bloody hard to discourange me.
I've been standing around for years, holding my money, and waiting for you to let me buy shit I can actually play/watch/listen to.
But you're just too damn good at what you do.
So I give up. You win. I'm off to download kazaa.