Maximum Latency for ISPs?

fluor2 asks: "My ISP is providing me 8mbit ADSL, and my speed is in fact 8mbit (downstream). However, we all know that there is no relation between transfer rate and latency, eg, a high transfer rate and high latency will kill your FPS games. A packet that travels through the sky and up to a satellite is bound to give high latency. Using pathping, I discovered that my ISP provides me with a latency of 22ms before my sent packets are sent out of my ISP's backbone (6 hops). I have a friend that also tried the same, and he got only 10ms before he was out of his ISP's network. I know 22ms is decent, but I still think that it's far too high if one uses IP-phones and similar. What kind of latency can we accept for a normal 8mbit ADSL connection, and isn't it about time that we get more focus on this subject?"

Comments

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

An 8mbps DSL line...

Since you're one of the first folks to try out this new tech, I think you need to tell US what to expect.

How much do you pay for that thing anyways? Just to play games?

Holy shit. I have trouble putting food on the table and you're worried about your high latency times for an 8mbps connection?

22ms?

[alph0ns3]

Back then, we had 33,6k modems, with 200ms pings at best, we played quake in software mode in 320x240 at 10 fps, and we were happy!

Latency and Throughput

[blate]

Your post states that latency and throughput are unrelated. For TCP connections (FTP, HTTP, IMAP, POP, and many games), this is absolutely not true.

The maximum possible throughput of a TCP connection is one "window" of data per round-trip time. The "window" size is essentially the amount of unacknowledged (ACK'ec) data that can be outstanding. This is often called the bandwidth-delay product, I think.

What you need to take away from this is that even if you had infinite bandwidth between you and your peer, the throughput of a single TCP connection is upper-bounded by the delay product. For example, if your window size is 32KBytes (I'm going to use 32,000 to make the numbers prettier) and the round-trip time is 100ms, then you can transmit (or receive) at most 32KB * 10 = 320KB per second. To go faster, you have to either increase the window size (which consumes more memory) or decrease the round-trip time (which is sometimes impossible, since the speed of light is a constant, or so my physicist friends claim).

A couple other points.

You're probably not capable of noticing the difference between 10ms and 20ms in terms of response time for interactive applications, including online gaming. if it were 10ms vs 100ms or 200ms, then yes, but 10ms is less than one refresh interval on your monitor, so you really can't "see" the difference.

As far as VoIP (IP telephony) and other multimedia network applications are concerned, again, you must consider the end-to-end latency (one-way delay) and/or the round-trip time, not the latency between you and some arbitrary router at your ISP.

The phone companies spec their systems (or so I've heard) such that the *round trip* latency for a domestic call is always less than or equal to 100ms. We're talking POTS here, not cell service, which experiences higher latencies.

I work on VoIP software; in an IP call (both ends are IP clients), it's very hard to keep the *one way* latency below about 100ms, if you're lucky, even if both clients are on a LAN. This is because you have to have various buffer and jitter compensation delays so that the sound quality is acceptible under somewhat adverse network conditions. In a typical call across the internet, 200ms one-way latency, IMHO, would be considered quite good.

So your 20ms intra-ISP latency (vs. the 10ms that your friend reports) is in the noise.

Oh, I should also mention, for completeness, that packet loss (or even reordering, which is more common that you may realize) can *really* hurt both TCP and VoIP (which usually uses UDP) performance/quality. This gets into some messier technical issues... basically, though, if your DSL isn't lossy, and you're getting 20ms intra-ISP latencies, you're doing as well or better than most of us.

Your friends who are running on 56k modems, who eat 200ms just to get their packets to the ISP's router on the other side of the PSTN are really going to be hurting :)

ADSL vs. SDSL

[EinarH]

Have you considered changing your ADSl into either a SDSL or VDSL service?
Some of those ISP's that offer ADSL have started to offer SDSL or VDSL. VDSL is currently very expensive in my area and only people within a short distcance from a telephone central can get it. SDSL is more flexible when it comes to max distace. Most people on SDSL get lower ping.

When I got my new connection I could either choose between 1024/512 ADSL at $85 or 1024/1024 at $140.
A bit expensive, but I get my own permanent IP, no pay per GB thing, can have my own servers etc.
And I can't complain at the latency, since many of the other users on the ISP are offices and bussiness whom almost only use their computers at office hours I get very low latency. Approx. 15 ms. to many CS-servers and the same to a backbone.

So I'm happy, but I still gaze at the connection of a friend of mine. He just got a VDSL 12500/6250 at $227. Officially, According to their User Agreement he cant't resell but the ISP is not that strict on it so he allready has 10+ customers... ;-)