Jesus Castillo, Supreme Court, And Free Speech

I've been following the Jesus Castillo case for a while. The case itself is an obscenity charge for selling an adult comic to an adult undercover police officer in Dallas. Recently, the US Supreme Court denied his appeal, with the notion that obscenity is a state-level affair, despite the First Amendment being a Federal law. There's also an interview with the head of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, and some good ruminations from Neil Gaiman on the subject. Bad precedents for free speech - the CBDLF donations and giving to the EFF are Good Things.

Comments

Cases like this are rediculous

[mjmalone]

The government needs to back off on lifestyle issues, especially when it comes to adults. If a person is making a positive contribution to society (not in jail, has a job, pays taxes, etc.) what right does anybody else have to tell them what they can and cannot say, do, smoke, eat, drink when it does affect other people. I am hoping there is more to this case than just buying an adult magazine, but according to the article the offense took place in Texas, which makes it less surprising that such a rediculous case is even being considered. I also find it interesting that his appeal was denied because obcenity charges were a state issue. Doesn't the federal court system have a certain responsiblity to step in when a state is being accused of infringing on a constitutional right?

Re:Cases like this are rediculous

[drinkypoo]

Saying that people cannot smoke on the street is reasonable, because the street is public. Saying that people cannot smoke in a private establishment is ridiculous, because it does not belong to the people. Citing labor laws as a reason to disallow smoking in a workplace is ridiculous because people can simply choose to work for smoking or non-smoking establishments. The people will decide.

Similarly but not at all identically, outlawing the sales (or at least the display of pornographic publications at a newsstand is reasonable, because it's in the public eye, but outlawing the sales or display of pornographic publications inside of a shop is just plain stupid and clearly a violation of the first amendment. If you don't like it, don't shop there.

Re:Cases like this are rediculous

[Surak]

The community does. If 99% of the population says 1% can't do something they like that does effect the rest, even in a very minor way, that 1% loses out.

So if 99% of the population are cannibals, and they decide to eat you, part of the 1% of the population that isn't...? Is it okay that you are now lunch?

Re:Cases like this are rediculous

[MobiusKlein]

To the contrary, 'Porn' aka 'Free Love' is a way of life for some. Many a hippy commune was founded on the idea of Free Love.

The mere 'pursuit of happiness' was one of the reasons America was founded, if you recall.

rbb

Re:Cases like this are rediculous

[ChaosDiscord]

Citing labor laws as a reason to disallow smoking in a workplace is ridiculous because people can simply choose to work for smoking or non-smoking establishments. The people will decide.

Similarlly, labor laws that disallow running machines in dangerous ways likely to injure and kill workers are ridiculous. People can simply choose to work for non-employee mangling establishments. The same with laws that prohibit sexually harassment my employers, those chicks can find themselves a non-ass groping establishment. Don't like my unsanitary kitchen? Let people chose between sanitary and unsanitary restaurants.

Personally, I'd rather live in a country where sometimes a community (be it a township or the entire nation) decides that certain activities cost society too much. These restrictions need to be made very carefully, the risk of overregulation is very serious. You definately need an emergency valve to protect essential freedoms (the Bill of Rights does an okay job at this).

Re:Cases like this are rediculous

[Zirnike]

"It stands, therefore, not as a right, but rather as a privilege awarded by the majority."

Bull. 10 seconds with google would have given you this tidbit:

Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

How clear can you get? Any right not explicitly given to the government is EXPLICITLY given to the people. People like you have constantly ignored these two amendments, and in the process, slashed away at the rights given to us by our existence. Not by the government, inherent rights.

If a woman wants to express herself by getting nude and getting paid for it, it's her call, and no one else's, except in that we don't have to buy a copy of 'Janet Reno, nude!' if we don't want to.

Oh, regarding: "The decision falls to the majority. Will more people be unhappy with it than happy? Then it won't be allowed."

In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of people do not need to be protected by the majority. The Constitution is set up to make sure that minorities cannot be repressed by the Fed (and the States). A white (non-Yankee) male does not have to be protected to get a job as sheriff in the deep south. A black woman just might. The Constitution protects against the 'Tyranny of the Majority'.

Texas

[mopslik]

Since it's in Texas, will he receive the death penalty?

Am I missing something?

[GeckoFood]

The case itself is an obscenity charge for selling an adult comic to an adult undercover police officer in Dallas.

At the risk of getting myself modded down for being a little clueless... Why is selling adult materials to adults in Dallas a problem? Is adult content illegal there? Or did he violate some ordinance? If it's a local thing, this should not be a big deal at all and is way out of proportion...

(if he thought said police officer was a minor, well, then I think I can understand the issue.)

Flame away...

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Texas Penal Code isn't generally thought of as a laugh-out-loud read, but Section 43.23 is an exception: "A person commits an offense if he ... possesses with intent to wholesale promote any obscene material or obscene device. A person who possesses six or more obscene devices ... is presumed to possess them with intent to promote the same."

Re:Am I missing something?

[mckwant]

I'm not well read on this, but I think the issue is that it's an obscene COMIC, and the DA is arguing that it shouldn't be available in a comic book store. Apparently, the store in question is also across the street from a school, which, of course, shouldn't matter at all.

This is exacerbated by the fact that, as we all know, comic book stores are populated solely by eight year olds who are really only interested in the adventures of Richie Rich, and might have their fragile minds corrupted by the mere presence of such materials.

Re: Am I missing something?

[Black Parrot]

> The Texas Penal Code isn't generally thought of as a laugh-out-loud read, but Section 43.23 is an exception: "A person commits an offense if he ... possesses with intent to wholesale promote any obscene material or obscene device. A person who possesses six or more obscene devices ... is presumed to possess them with intent to promote the same."

Ah, the Five Dildo Limit. Remember that when packing for a trip to Texas.

Re:Am I missing something?

[DAldredge]

From another site:

I apologize in advance to all those readers who have ties to the Lone Star State, but only in Texas would a woman get busted for possession of sex toys. Not possession of narcotics, or an open container of alcohol or even an illegal alien. Instead, Kathleen Elizabeth "Kathy" Grubbs of Longview, Texas was charged with obscenity for intent to promote "objects defined in a dictionary as having the shape and often the appearance of the male genitalia, used in sexual stimulation."

According to a Nov. 21 article in the Longview News-Journal, Grubbs, having been pulled over for driving erratically, had 17 "obscene materials and obscene devices" in her car, a felony under Texas state law. The law states that anyone possessing more than six "obscene" items at a time has intent to promote said items. This is apparently a big no-no in Texas, where there have been raids on various adult bookstores in recent months.

Grubbs, a distributor for Slumber Parties Inc., called the charges "kind of ridiculous."

First amendment

[fingusernames]

The first amendment is not a "federal law." It is a component of the federal constitution which restricts federal power, and through the 14th amendment, it is considered "incorporated" to restrict state power as well. This has been well-settled since shortly after the Civil War.

Larry

Obscenity rulings

[Anixamander]

the US Supreme Court denied his appeal, with the notion that obscenity is a state-level affair, despite the First Amendment being a Federal law

Free speech is a federal issue, however the USSC decided in 1973 that the determination of obscentiy is a test in part based on community standards.
The court does not seem to be ignoring this issue as much as they are referring back to their previous ruling.

Re: this is normal

[Black Parrot]

> the precedent has always been that the locale of the alleged offense has the right to determine what is "patently obscene" free speech is guaranteed, but if everyone around decides that what you say is obscene you can be shut down.

IOW, there isn't really any free speech.

> I for one, believe in personal responsibility. Your right to extend your fist ends when it hits my nose

And personal responsibility suggests that you shouldn't buy naughty comic books if you don't want to see them.

This may be "normal" in the USA, but it isn't "liberty and justice for all".

Curious

[phorm]

Is this just a local law, or one that's in a lot of states. Is such material OK, except in the form of comics?
I'm wondering as to the particulars of this law, as selling an X-rated comic book (which I'm assuming didn't touch the fringes of underage-looking characters or whatever) to an adult is not a crime in most areas, and certainly not here in Canada. How can the US uphold such a law, or is it just Texas?

What really gets me is that the store doesn't get busted for carrying the material, but the clerk does. The cop that pulled this bust should be ashamed of himself, railroading an unsuspecting clerk like that.

Amen.

[InterruptDescriptorT]

That being said, I think I'll stay far away from Texas. It's like looking back in time 100 years.

100 is a number the figures prominently here in Texas. The temperatures always seem to be above it, while the locals' IQs average well below it.

This is probably one of the back-asswardest states in the Union and since you appear to have half a brain, I'd recommend staying the hell away from it and let it degenerate into the backwards, inbred garbage dump it is rapidly becoming.

As Much as I Love the First Amendment...

[XaProf]

I'm going to apologize in advance for being picky.

1. The First Amendment isn't law, it's a part of the Constitution. The Constitution trumps Federal Law.
2. The first words of the First Amendment say "Congress shall make no law..." That is, the First Amendment initially only restricted Congress, not state legislatures. Then, through application of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Supreme Court (SCOTUS) said that the First Amendment would (kind of) apply to the states as well as the federal government.
3. But wait, free speech isn't that easy. Lots of states have crimes against fraud. But what is fraud? A lie. What is political speech (sometimes)? A lie. When can you tell one lie from another lie? This is where things get tricky.
4. Sidenote: this is why the First Amendment applied only to the Feds initially. The Founders thought that the to-and-fro of normal political action in the states would help preserve liberties, and so didn't prevent the states from doing a heck of a lot initially. They were more afraid of the federal government becoming tyrranical. Rhetorical question: ask yourself which is more tyrranical today -- the states or the feds?

So SCOTUS has now made a million itty-bitty divisions within the First Amendment. You can go to jail for burning a draft card, but it's ok to wear a jacket saying "Fuck the Draft."

The Supreme Court is busy. Very very busy. Don't think that they're the only ones who could have helped this guy, though. For his case to have gotten this far, it must have wound its way through a handful of courts and a dozen different judges.

The First Amendment is complicated. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a foe of obscenity law as Larry Flynt; this post isn't about the underlying case, more about the way that it's been presented here. Want to make things better? Petition your state legislator to change the laws of your state. State legislators have a thankless job and would probably look forward to some feedback from one of their constituents.

And no, I'm not a legislator or a guy who knows one. I'm just a student.

Sheesh....

Whoa, There, Cowboy! Local Obscenity Laws == Good

[RobotRunAmok]

I followed the links, but got no information re what the local obscenity laws are in Dallas. Did the comic sold violate them? If so, then what's the issue...?

Lookit, laws re obscenity and speed limits and such are made on the state and local levels Because That Makes Sense! The people in downtown Tulsa don't want L.A.-style porn shops opening in their area, and the people in L.A. don't want to live in a Tulsa-esque climate. Fine! Great! Makes perfect sense! If the Fed comes in to determine what is "universally" obscene or not, folks in both Oklahoma and California aren't going to be happy by the compromise.

Hey, this is America, Land of Opportunity, and if I want to get rich with a chain of Car Washes, I can go for it. But if I try to open one next to your suburban golf course or grammar school, I'm going to be denied. Why? Cuz of the local zoning laws. So I go elsewhere to pursue my "opportunity." Makes sense to me, and the people with the kids in the local school. Some guy selling some explicit tentacle-sex manga is cuffed in Dallas. That makes sense too.

How refreshing that the Supreme Court is repsecting state statute on this one. I really do not want the Federal Goverment involving themselves with local lifestyle laws. There's a Big Big World West of the Beltway and East of Hollywood.

I wonder...

[Lord_Slepnir]

...if its too late to let Mexico have Texas back. I hate having to say I'm from the same country as these people.

Nobody knows why the Court refused to hear case.

[Glassbear]

Recently, the US Supreme Court denied his appeal, with the notion that obscenity is a state-level affair, despite the First Amendment being a Federal law.

But the Supreme Court didn't actually say that, or anything of the kind. Read the linked article. Castillo thinks the Supreme Court refused to hear his case because Castillo thinks the Court thinks it's a question for the states. But the Court itself didn't say one word about why it refused to hear Castillo's case, so we have no way to know whether his belief about their reasons is an accurate belief or not. The Court gets asked to hear thousands of cases every year and actually hears fewer than a hundred of them. The Court generally doesn't offer any explanation of why it takes, or fails to take, any particular case -- and its order denying Castillo's petition says nothing about why they decided not to hear it.

Some Background

[_xeno_]

The links Hemos gave did little to establish background for the "Jesus Castillo case" so I'll try and do it based on some brief research and what I found through Google.

Basically, during the month September 1999, an undercover police officer purchased a collection of adult comics from a store called "Keith's Comics" in Dallas. He then looked through them to try and determine comics that would be considered obscene by community standards. (This is a normal part of vice operations anywhere.)

The comics chosen where Demon Beast Invasion: The Fallen and Legend of the Overfiend (links to Google searches). At trial the second one was dropped and only "Demon Beast Invasion" was considered as being an obscene book sold to the officer. (Funny quote from the Dallas Observer article: "There was no test here to show the clerk knew what was in there. You can't judge a book by its cover." (Said by Castillo's attorney, working for the CBLDF.) Look at the Demon Beast Invasion cover. I think you probably can judge that book by its cover. Just look at the Google links above. Enough editorializing...)

The defense basically argued that the books were not legally obscene because they did not "taken as a whole, lacks any serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value." Scott McCloud (OT: one of my father's childhood friends was his older brother) testified about the artistic values, and Susan Napier, an associate professor in UT-Austin's Department of Asian Studies, testified about the cultural value in relation to Japanese culture.

Castillo was found guilty, and both appeals in the Texas legal system failed to overturn the verdict. The Supreme Court was the last resort, and they have declined the case. He has already paid his $4000 fine and began his 180-day probation.