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Hams Complain about Powerline Broadband
dwm writes "Think
broadband over power lines (BPL) would be wonderful? There might be some collateral damage. The American Radio Relay League (your friendly neighborhood ham radio operators) have documented dramatic HF radio interference in areas where BPL is being tested (Check out the video of actual interference)."
How many people still rely on ham radio? Why havent they moved over to something a little more modern? Does ham radio have any advantages over current technology?
by the amateur radio community is that this internet signal is transmitted through the electrical lines at frequencies from 2Mhz to 80Mhz - 80 through 6 meters. Studies have shown that, at the power levels suggested by the power companies along with the transmission lines acting like very large antennas, the typical amateur operator with have an estimated 33.7db to 65.4db of additional ambient noise to contend with, and would obviously ruin ham radio.
Would it be a huge problem for Slashdot to download the video first and then put up a bittorrent link for the file? Really -- any video link posted in a story immediately goes down due to mega-traffic.
Thoughts?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Well yes. If this BPL stuff is causing harmful interference, I will not 100% be for the use of it - Partly because I am a ham op myself.
That said, BPL does seem like a promising technology. This way, the electrical utlity can also sell internet, allowing the consumer to benefit from market competition.
For me, I see HAM radio's biggest benefit to society being when disasters strike and nothing works (phone, cell phone, etc) HAM ops are able to get communication going and assist emergency response efforts.
Now, if this BPL is causing HF interference, thats OK! after all, in the event of an emergency and the power is out, NO HF noise caused by BPL!
-Grump.
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
Of course, it is largely isolated from the main Internet, since there are a lot of restrictions as to what can be done with Amateur Radio (no commercial use, no swearing, etc.) as opposed to the Internet at large.
About eight months ago I started experiencing MASSIVE interference on my 2.4ghz phone (it goes static every 3 seconds from some source of cyclic perpetual interference) and my wireless network suffered a noticable drop-off in range. I tried to isolate the source (turned off the router, talked to neighbors, etc.), but was totally unable to pin it down.
A couple months after I had been forced to go with an old wired phone I read an article discussing how certain RF lights used for radio towers and other commercial level items can cause long range interference. So I think to myself, "I'm in VT, and VT has mountains with radio towers on them, so maybe its an RF light somewhere."
Of course I don't have the resources to know what towers are around, etc., but maybe a local Ham operator group does? Figuring they would at least no more than I do about interference I searched for a local group and emailed the head of the VT Ham Radio organization located up near Burlington.
I basically asked him if his group knew of any sources of interference in my area, if he knew how I might track it down, and what my recourse might be. I'm basically thinking hey, I'm just wondering what's up, and this guy is probably in a position to help. I've heard the stories of self-absorbed Hams fighting with neighbors, but I'm figuring its an overblown stereotype based on a noted minority of the group.
The response I got was immediately hostile. First point was no answer in terms of known sources of interference... basically just ignored the question and said it could be anything. Then he goes on this diatribe telling me I have no rights, the 2.4ghz range is unregulated (yes, I already knew all this), he and other Hams have more rights since they are licensed, and how I generally have no expectation of a clear channel.
I made the point that I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that I should be able to receive a signal for my phone inside my own house 20 feet from the base station. I also noted that 802.11b and similar technologies in the 2,4ghz frequency are one of the fastest growing areas of the technology industry, and that a rural area like VT might be well served socially and economically from the advent of such tech developments. He disagreed, stating that Hams had done more to maintain the spectrum than anyone else, and thus had a greater right to a greater share than anyone else.
The emails went back and forth a bit, but it basically confirmed the general stereotype for Ham operators as a group relatively unconcerned with the happiness of their neighbors.
So what's the summary? Hams are over-defensive, self-absorbed, and unrealstic. In the old days they had the run of the frequencies since most of the spectrum was totally unutilized. They got comfy living in a big house with few people to bother them. The explosion in communications and utilization of the various frequencies has thus begun to threaten their little fiefdom, and it now has them screaming bloody murder.
My message to Hams: get over it, you are a TINY minority whose hobby does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for anyone but yourself. I and many others don't have a problem with your hobby in general, but we have a right not to lose our use of radio frequencies ENTIRELY just so you can talk with a guy a hundred miles away. You don't generate jobs with your hobby, you don't venefit the community, and your licensing does not entitle you to run rampant over the rights of your neighbors. Despite what the FCC might contend, radio frequencies are the property of ALL citizens and not a select few.
-rt
Have the proponents of BPL considered that it may be a violation of international treaties governing the use and allocation of the RF spectrum? If I want to put an HF transmitter on the air, I must obtain a license from my country's radio administration, who in turn is required to follow international treaties that say what frequencies and emission types are available for specific classes of users. There are bands reserved for broadcasting, ships, aircraft, amateur radio, etc.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
The claim that BPL is good for rural deployment is yet another myth propagated by the BPL lobbyists. In essence it is bait and switch. The BPL strategy is to get the FCC to allow the high levels of interference / pollution as the FCC is focused on getting broadband to communities that don't have it
In reality, if the BPL lobbyists succeed, they will immediately focus on the wealthy suburban markets that are profitable (and already have cable and DSL) and ignore the rural areas.
DSL can work out to about ~ 16,000 feet from the central office. BPL can only go 2,000 feet from the BPL equivalent of a DSLAM, then it needs an expensive repeater installed by an linesman trained to work with 11,000 volt cables. So for a 16,000 foot run 8 BPL repeaters are needed.
At the customer's pole transformer a bridge needs to be installed to couple the signals from the 11,000 volt line to the 110 volt line (shudder to think what would happen if the bridge failed).
However the math is worked, there is no way they can implement this vast array of expensive equipment in rural areas with any hope of meeting the projected pricing.
The existing DSL broadband technology is proven and could be provided to almost everyone who has a phone, the barriers are political not technical. The solution to universal broadband lies in ensuring the phone companies serve all of their customers equally. BPL is a broken technology that is a pure distraction to the objective of universal broadband.
Massive and diverse opposition to interference from BPL / PLC
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Overwhelming number of comments to the FCC strongly oppose interference from BPL.
A very diverse range of corporations, organizations, associations, groups and citizens have filed comments that urge the FCC to ensure that BPL / PLC interference does not pollute our shortwave.
Of the 2,500 comments that have been filed. Over 99% of the comments to the FCC have been against allowing BPL interference. The small number of comments supporting BPL have been from Power Companies looking for quick profits at the expense of turning our American shortwave into an electronic version of Prince William Sound after the Exxon Valdez oil spill.
Below are links to some of the submissions.
IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers)
gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.
National Academy of Sciences (BPL will severely disrupt Radio Astronomy)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retriev
Wireless Communications Association (BPL could disrupt Wireless Internet access)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve..
North American Shortwave Association
gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve
ARRL (Represents 700,000 American radio amateurs)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve
National Association of Broadcasters (Folks that own the TV and Radio stations)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve
I don't want to sound troll. But this thing (ethernet over power lines) has been freaking out ham radio operators all over the world for quite some time. Look for example here [eham.net]. And based on the law "if the shit can happen it certainly will" this will bring EMI problems to all equipment that is connected to or in the vicinty of the jack in the wall. Your TVs your stereos your computers etc.
Besides have anybody of had to deal with power companies? Do you really want THEM to provide your internet connection? Or even being involved in providing one.
Time and time again it returns (and will keep returning) to the simple truth. You need an adequate infrastructure to provide high speed Internet.
In the beginning of DSL I kept hearing a lot of strange things going against physics. Such as UTP (unshielded twisted pair) is better than coaxial cable etc. Well guess what, being entirely untrue this is not the end of the story. The pair that runs the phone line in your home/appartment is not even twisted, its flat (and it's CAT 3 most of the time to the central office).
It took huge amount of money to put power lines, phone lines and CATV into every home. And the companies that were doing that were cutting costs like crazy. Which means that nobody ever thought that someday it will be used for something else besides its initial purpose. And again based on the law I mentioned in the beginning it will be probably the worst case scenario for anytiing else. In case of DSLs that certainly is crosstalk and EMI and also distance. For example in my case no DSL provider does even want to install it for me citing that I am too far from central office.
Personally I think the interrim winners of all this will be the cable companies. Just because the people who decided to get broadband internet access usually go all the way once they've set to have it. Most people I know who started with DSL eventually just switch to cable modems. But eventually every body will lose because again CATV was not intended for anything else. (Just an example untill recently CATV equipment manufacturers were refusing to use multilayered PCBs because it was "too expensive"). So this is it. People just keep their heads in the body cavities of their choice and keep selling each other a snake oil.
On the other hand. It would be actually nice (especially with current situation in tech sector of economy) if we'd start laying fiber to the home and/or build sane infrastructure for wireless access.
Just my $0.02
- Back off man. I am a scientist
There is a lot more in the affected bandwidth than ham radio. The hams are just the most vocal group to oppose BPL.
There is worldwide shortwave broadcast, citizen's band, government and land-mobile radio, too, including police and fire dispatch (although a lot of that has moved up to VHF higher, there is still a lot on "low band"), cordless telephones and baby monitors, television channels 2-6, etc.
So it's not just hams that will lose out if this technology is deployed. Shortwave listeners, public safety communications, other land mobile (there are a lot of utilities using these frequencies) and pepole receiving television off antennas will all find their communcations disrupted.
Not to mention the technical problems of distributing RF over a very-low-frequency network.
This is a bad idea, poorly implemented. Like a nuclear powered airplane with an air-shielded reactor. An idea who's time will never come.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
Most of that was utter nonsense, it's a given that bridging the last mile of arguably the most significant technological advance in the history of mankind to date is more important than those services, which can move to other frequencies.
Considering all electronic devices, including your radio need the power running at the frequency it's already at, Guess who will have to change first? Shielding the cables isn't an option either, that puts this right back in the same spot it is with dsl and cable internet (except perhaps a distance over the cable increase, and that really is just a way of making broadband cheaper and wider reaching, instead of the internet itself).
I have a license, KC5LHH. And while hams aren't at the forefront, neither is the emergency broadcast service. Hams train themselves to provide a worldwide communications network under the *worst* possible conditions. And while BPL would do much to harm broadcasts, I do think that proper power supply filtering and construction can greatly reduce/eliminate the problem. Just don't count em out. In the event of a disaster as trivial as a hurricane/earthquake, they are quite useful. And one day when some conventional/nuclear war takes place or aliens invade, you might owe them your life.
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
After making wait him while I unpacked everything I needed to make my radios work we conducted some test and he was finally convinced I was not the cause of the interference. Even telling him that the radio gear was not even capable of being used at the time was not enough for him to think that someone/something else was to blame.
People resent being blamed for something that was not their fault even when the blame continues after his has been shown there is no way it could have been them.
That's great that if the power is out, the interference would be gone, but why would the HAM operators all over the country still be operating, if 99.999% of the time, they were drowned out by interference, they'd all be gone.
The barriers to dsl and cable deployment are COST. The COST of running the cable and also the fact that neither can go very far from the office due to technical limitations.
Since it's the COST of laying cable and range the technology can travel on the wire the prevent dsl or cable from reaching the last mile, it's reasonable to suspect it would turn out to be just as expensive to replace all the power lines in every location way the hell out in the middle of nowhere. BPL overcomes some of the distanced traveled on the wire limitations.
I'm not saying shielding wouldn't stop or reduce the impact this has on radio, I'm saying reruning every power line in the world might be a tad more expensive than replacing the radios on boats with ones that use what are currently ham bands.
After all, the hams have trillions worth of frequencies that have been dead pretty much anytime I've listened. A friend who is a ham laughed and admitted it, 90% of the time 90% of hf is silent, in fact, you have to know where to look to find transmissions, that doesn't sound like you have to hunt around to find an open frequency to me.. and it has to go aways beyond you have to search for 5mins to find an open frequency before they are "crowded". Allocated is not the same thing as crowded, it doesn't matter if it's Allocated, it can be reallocated, again, hams have trillions worth of spectrum that should rightly belong to the common man... not an elite group of licensed operators.
Since I don't have the spectrum anyway, might as well contribute it to something which actually IS useful to the common man. Ships can use satillite technology, just as US Naval ships do. Emergency services don't need to inform the globe before the power is back on, communicating with rescue workers within a few miles until the crisis is resolved will do just fine. Hams can chat across the globe with these things called instant messengers and voip technologies that run through *gasp* the internet. And thanks to power cable provided bandwidth you won't even have lag in your always digitally PERFECT transmission.