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Hams Complain about Powerline Broadband
dwm writes "Think
broadband over power lines (BPL) would be wonderful? There might be some collateral damage. The American Radio Relay League (your friendly neighborhood ham radio operators) have documented dramatic HF radio interference in areas where BPL is being tested (Check out the video of actual interference)."
It's more of a hobby than a necessity
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -George Carlin
I'm a HAM radio oprator. It bothers me that some pople don't see anyting wrong with creating interference on already allocated radio waves. What if the same companies started to interfere with WiFi bands ? How would you react ?
I punched a baby once.
Troll!!!
I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds bouncing radio waves off the atmosphere a ton more interesting and impressive than sending some packets over the internet.
I'm only into shortwave, I'm not a ham, but I can pick them up.
Picking up someone in Ecuador for example is a LOT cooler than getting an email from someone in Ecuador.
The RFID tags are being increased in power as well, which will interfere with amateur radio too possibly. Not sure on the techie details as I'm relatively new to this.
Other than it beinng completely free and open for anyone to use regardless of how much money they have? Ham radio is the one communications medium where everyone is on equal footing. Well, except for those old farking hams with their advanced licenses who think they are farking god because they can do morse code and you're stuck with a god damn no-code tech license. Bah.
I don't recall seeing this in any DARPA specifications. It was designed to provide network communications over unreliable links. And before people go off bashing ham radio, consider that Karn's Algorithm, a critical component of TCP/IP without which the Internet would have died long before the present number of hosts, was developed by Phil Karn, KA9Q (a ham radio operator) to solve problems with TCP over AX.25, the ham packet radio protocol.
"The Internet" would not survive a nuclear strike. Hell, as we have seen great swaths of it can be taken out by a clumsy backhoe operator. Ham radio definitely has uses. In fact, ham radio could quickly be brought to bear to provide TCP/IP links to replace damaged infrastructure.
Ham radio is often used to provide communications following disasters like hurricanes.
No doubt the Internet is more important, and more capable than ham radio in general, but with my ham gear and a 12v battery I can provide significant communications for a lot of people. How much of the internet functions when a whole city's power grid is out?
Oh goodie, they're going to splatter all over the low TV channels and the first harmonics will trash the VHF band as well, not to mention low-band VHF used by many police/fire departments in rural/hilly areas.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Ham Radio does not get spammed, does not receive DDOS attacks, was instrumental in coordinating rescue volunteers at the World Trade Center after 9/11, is Internet-compatible (google for IRLP), doesn't have to cost a penny after you buy your radio, and Ham operators are not being sued by SCO or the RIAA, or monitored by the FBI or DOJ.
On the other hand, ham radio does not have major pr0n sites or warez traders.
Take your pick.
I am a rather new ham radio operator, and I cannot believe the way the slashdot community is responding to this. With even a quick evaluation it should be clear that the benefits of amateur radio are more important than bpl. To me, the primary difference is that ham radio can be a challenge, and the internet is simple point and click. Try being 50 miles from a Utility plug, with a 8w 6meter radio. and have fantasitic comunications with people all over the states. try doing that with the internet. And you will see just how valuable ham radio is
I'm a ham, and I don't think this is a troll. It brings up a very valid point about the relative merits of two different communications paradigms.
HF ("short wave") communications certainly lacks the strategic and commercial importance it once had. It's always been a relatively-noisy, unreliable, and bandwidth-constrained way to communicate, and nowadays, HF is used primarily as a backup for satellite and long-haul microwave circuits. We could live without if we had to.
If, by sacrificing the entire HF radio spectrum, we could actually wire every home in the USA for economical broadband Internet access, I honestly wouldn't oppose it. Amateur Radio operators and commercial/military/governmental HF operators alike should realize the truth: we can't shy away from the technological, economic, and social potential of universal broadband Internet connectivity because of the lamentations of a few modern-day buggy-whip manufacturers.
Now, as a disclaimer, I will say that I don't believe that power-line distribution makes sense for broadband Internet. The power companies have spent the last hundred years optimizing their network to ship 60-Hz sine waves around, and trying to shovel data through a network like that is bound to be more trouble than, say, running fiber to every curb in America.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
Yes, broadband over powerlines has proven to be a technological dead end. It's been tested over here for several years, and it's just not worth it compared to already installed adsl or cable.
The power companies is doing one thing right though, with every new long span high voltage line they're laying, they're twirling fiber with the lines. That's the future. A fiber channel into each and every home.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
I'm N7ZTT. I can never get my extra class license now that they lowered the morse code test to 5wpm - the advanced class (which no longer exists) is my only proof that I can transmit data by hand at ~10 baud (yes, faster than some early modems! 13wpm = ~10 baud)
:-)
If you follow that link, you'll see I earned my advanced class in 1993; I received my first license in ~1991. But I'm not an old fark, I was homeschooled & did this for part of my curriculum. I'm only 23
I'll make another post in a few minutes that won't be a brag thread. It's actually sorta sad to see Ham radio fading out. You can do everything and more on the internet than you can on amateur radio. Of course, if we had wide-scale power outages & the sun was spewing crud at our atmosphere, morse code could potentially be the only way to quickly send information to other countries. Due to the nature of morse code, it can be deciphered even with a very low S/N ratio.
Anyway, I'll make a more intelligent post soon:
"Am I wrong?"
The importance of ham radio becomes apparent during wartime and other emergency situations. Battery, antenna, and radio and you're "online". There are too many things (and people) that can happen to the average person's IP connectivity.
I feel the need to point out to you that many people benefit from Ham radio. I'll probably get modded down for this, but I may as well burn some karma.
Many people appreciate the services provided by the National Weather Service. How many lives are saved by issuing severe thunderstorm and tornado warnings? While I don't know the answer, I'd be willing to bet it's a somewhat large number.
Do you know that the National Weather Service relies on storm spotters to provide them with information about severe weather? That's right, there's some things doppler radar just can't tell you. And do you know how much of that information gets from spotters to the NWS? That's right, it gets there by Ham radio.
And also, consider that many places just don't have internet connectivity. You don't think about it because you live in a wealthy country and you live a good life. But what about South America? What about Africa? What about Asia? It's much less expensive to build a Ham radio than it is to buy the parts for a computer.
Some radio signals reach to every corner of the planet, something the internet and broadband just won't do. It's not the most modern method of communication, but it's still one of the most useful and important.
And I won't even mention that Ham radio is often the first communication link to an area that's been hit by a disaster. Hams often help provide communications in the case of an emergency.
Hopefully you don't still think that only an elite few need or benefit from Ham radio. That's simply not true. In fact, complaining that it's so unfair that you won't have broadband over your powerlines because of Ham radio is far more elitist than any of the pro-Ham comments I've read so far.
Why don't they move over to something more modern? Do they have to? Maybe because of the challenge of making a contact over hundreds of miles using very low watt transcievers, or experimenting with Earth-Moon-Earth communications, or slow-scan TV. Just because they can pick up a phone and call someone the same distance away isn't the point. I can easily install windoze on a computer and make it work, but that doesn't mean I have to. I prefer a challenge, which is why I started playing with Linux and use it on most of my computers. How many of you installed Linux the first time, just for the challenge? Maybe it wasn't the easiest system to use, and people might say, "why don't you just use windoze?" I'm just trying to make the slashdot audience understand where hams are coming from, although the analogy may be bad.
I'm torn about the BPL issue, though. I applied for and got my first ham license 2 months ago, and I got my first "rig" a couple weeks ago. I'm excited to start a new hobby, and I'm studying to upgrade to a General class license. On the other hand, BPL would allow my parents to have broadband. They live 3 miles from a small town, and currently use Wi-Fi which sometimes works. I'd like to see more people get broadband, but does it have to be at the cost of losing a hobby that's been around for 100 years?
~jason
KC0QHQ
Passing data over power lines is irresponsible from an engineering perspective. Power lines were designed to carry very very low frequencies, 60 hertz to be exact. BPL is wideband noise from 1 to 80 megahertz.
:-)
Anyone with the slightest electical engineering knowledge knows that a signal of such high frequencies will be radiated and antenuated nearly immediately. The power lines are just awful transmission media for these frequencies. What is needed for the power cables is shielding -- that's what's known as coaxial cable. ( Why don't they pass data on cable ?
This is analogous to the water company trying to deliver water with perforated pipes. The water just spills out everywhere and every couple hundred feet they would have to pump in more water so that you had sufficient water pressure at your house.
BPL was rejected in Japan and Europe, becuase it polluted the spectrum so bad it was pathetic.
For those dumping on ham radio as being obsolete or feel broadband is more important, consider that this will interfere with many other services including international ship distress frequencies, government (including military) allocations, shortwave broadcasts, and most likely aviation and public safety frequencies. Is your ability to get high speed pr0n more important than all this ?
Why is everyone else (like the FCC and utility companies) saying this is great ? The FCC is pro-big business and pro-utility. Equipment vendors are retreading the same technology that was rejected overseas and not informing their clients, the power companies, of the true interference potential. The power companies are dying to get into the broadband race as the telcos have their heads up their butts with DSL.
We need broadband, but this is not the solution. We need to remove the barriers for DSL and cable. Power companies could leapfrog the telcos and cable companies with fiber into the home or unlicensed wireless from their poles.
Quite simply, BPL is DOA.
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
Broadband over power lines is running a high frequency signal over unshielded, untwisted wire, for miles. Hmm, who would have thought that could cause radio interference? Maybe the power companies (and the equipment manufacturers) should have thought about this for a bit longer.
It's one thing to run fiber to the curb, and use a low-power signal to the home - that might be workable. It's basically what the hybrid fiber coax cable systems do, but their wire is shielded too.
If the equipment is generating this much RF interference, I don't see how the equipment could be certified for deployment. If it is certified, I'd be interested to know what agency put their mark on it.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
Sample size: 1
I have been reading /. for years and this is the most disappointing reaction to a story posting that I have seen to date.
/.ers are attacking amateur radio rather than seeking more information about the service. "Hams" are not just ten old guys sitting around using "CBs" to talk in some antiquated manner or a bunch of old guys hunched over a telegraph key slowly tapping out morse code. Amateur radio is also not just an "emergency" service -- although some amateur radio operators do participate in emergency communications. You would be amazed at what amateur radio has to offer -- GPS location services, radio/Internet interconnects, satellite communications, digital communications, microwave projects, rural Internet, and other bleeding edge projects. Many of these projects will become standard /.er fair in five or ten years.
First, BPL is proven to cause interference to more than just amateur radio. Amateur radio operators are one of the few groups that has the skills and capabilities to prove the problem exists before a major mistake is made in deploying BPL.
Second, I have seen a number of anecdotes indicating that "ham" radio operators are jerks and, therefore, apparently should not have any rights. Obviously, in any group, a small minority of the members may be jerks. However, "hams" are by far one of the kindest, most intelligent, and thoughtful groups that I know. It is not fair for me to minimize the "jerk" problem, but I cannot see a link between being a jerk and having rights taken away. Get to know some real amateur radio operators and you will see a dedicated, service-oriented, and technologically cutting edge group.
Third, amateur radio operators are licensed by the FCC. The licensing requires extensive testing and is conducted very professionally (locate a local VEC session and you will see what I mean about professionalism). The tests are rigorous, especially for the higher classes, and require the applicant to be seriously interested in radio and technical communications.
Amateur radio operators are not a bunch of people with "CBs" sitting around making life difficult for others.
Forth, amateur radio operators are largely responsible for many of the "Internet crowd" technologies. Wireless Internet (I was doing that in 1990), satellite tv, "cell" phones, etc. were all largely based on amateur radio technologies. Amateur radio is really a cutting edge scientific and technical discipline.
Fifth, and probably most important, BPL may sound like an excellent idea; but the telecom industry promised broadband access via standard telephone and digital line technologies to most people in the US by 2006 as part of the mega merger process in the 1980s and 1990s. In exchange for creating mega-monopolies, the telcos promised to provide broadband services. The telcos, however, have heavily lobbied Congress and state governments to conveniently "forget" this little deal because it is now "too expensive." If the telcos would be held to their agreements, poor technologies like BPL would not be needed. Think about it: do you really want your Internet connections from a high voltage/amperage power line? Contact your Congressperson and state representatives and ask why the telcos have not lived up to the commitments.
I guess I am just disappointed that a number of
Sorry to get on my soap box.
It's more of a hobby than a necessity
:-)
Is broadband pr0n a necessity ? Don't answer that
Ham radio may just be a hobby, but it is an important one. We provide emergency communications when celular, telco, and power are dead. It promotes international goodwill. It allows many people to learn RF engineering and become great engineers. For the nerds, you can play with high power RF, pass data, send video, bounce signals off the moon, use sattelites, and much more....
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
Wait until there is a natural (or man made) disaster in your area and comunications are knocked out. No phone, internet, or power. Ham radio can be the only way to communicate out of an area. Modern communications are great, but there are times when good old ham radio is needed, and is the only way to communicate. So, yes, it is just a hobby -- at least until that tornado, earthquake, hurricane, etc. comes...
DE WB3IZT
Beware of Sleestak
please think.
Sure, the disaster area has no power, but what about the people you need to recieve you?
What benefits? no AM? no emergency services?(other emergency services as well as ham), Noise on non properly shield equipment(like most home electronic equipment)?
Now, what benefits of broadband are there? you can get email with dial-up, you can get IM with dial-up. clearly broadband is not a criticle need.
Don't confuse numbers of users with usefullness. Perhaps we should get rid of the firestaions, since they only help a small handfull of people?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
we can use the same frequencies (we often work in the 155-mHz band,like the police). Problem is, when you're in a deep valley, those frequencies don't work worth squat. The only thing you can do is hope to hit a mountaintop repeater, and those are ham only.
I have a girlfriend whose name doesn't end in
"The answer is to discover which frequencies this interferes with and move the hams off of those frequencies. "
In other words, take some more ground from the commons and give it to big business. No thanks.
And even if I did agree with you on that point, this case would still be different. It's a wired service. The RF bandwidth is being wasted because it's just a lousy way to send data. If they set their minds to it, they could probably come up with an economical way to string some fiber over the towers they already own. Power lines have some serious but unavoidable drawbacks as it is. Why add more problems?
Yeesh - Have you looked at the evidence they compiled? It's not just a little static. It's S9 and greater noise. It makes HF communications nearly impossible.
I'd probably agree with you if they were just screaming about it. But they have *proof*.
Keep in mind that radio requires two things to be useful: a transmitter and a receiver. If power is out and phone lines are useless, then you are correct that hams could send distress messages out. But HF transmissions can be quite tricky to transmit with pinpoint precision and atmospheric conditions can leave you with only a few possible transmission destinations under even ideal conditions.
In emergency conditions, directing your transmissions with makeshift antennas can leave you with only one or two possible destinations ( like the mentioned Mexico to New Zealand hop). If all of the possible receiving locations have a high level of inteference from local powerline broadband, then your plea for help "ain't gonna get heard". Hams are required to make sure that their radio emmissions do not cause inteference with nearby radio and TV receivers. They can also ask for FCC action to put a stop to intrusion into the ham bands.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Different frequency ranges have greatly different propagation characteristics. Many of the bands used for local fire, rescue and police were picked specifically because they don't carry too far to keep them from overlapping too much.
You may want to educate yourself before calling bullsh*t on someone elses post. He said nothing about a ham license requirement for every member of a S&R team. Only that some of what they have to do would be almost impossible without ham assistance.
Also, if you are equating CB ( citizens band ) users with licensed amateur radio operators, you are completely wrong. CB is named for a section of radio spectrum that was taken from exclusive amateur radio use to create a spectrum for unlicensed use in low power (5 watt), short range communication. The motorola radios that you linked to as a great alternative have a great range, "- 2 mile range in ideal conditions but 1/4- 1/2 mile on average." Just what those rescue teams need in rough terrain, radios that won't communicate.
Fire and Rescue, Police and other public safety groups have authority to stop a ham for use in emergency situations too. I'm not a ham, but know a couple that have been identified by either license plate or antenna and stopped for communication use. One was at a wreck scene that was in a valley that the HP radio couldn't get out of (cell phone either) and another was during a large wildfire.
Now that I think about what you said, you are right. Even though hams help during emergencies, route messages around the world between military and families ( more in the past), provide a fun hobby and encourage learning about electronics, they really are useless. Just because you can't see a need or use for them, they will probably disband after seeing the compelling logic of your arguments.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
I'll call you on that :) FCC abolished the sending test how long ago? Pre-1993, at any rate...as that's when my Advanced license dates from. You can still receive at 13WPM though (and the test was kinda weak in my opinion...the examiners were amazed at five minutes of solid copy. A one-minute requirement strikes me as barely workable).
Get your extra. And hang onto your CSCE. I still have all of mine around here somewhere.
As far as all these chumps complaining about hams and their "private playground"--yeesh. The REASON for the amateur service is that it's proven, in technological and social resources, to greatly enhance the commons. Same basic reason we have copyright protection--investing or limiting the public domain in the short term to enrich it in the long term. If you want to eliminate all ham bands, fine. Never use your cell phone again. Or TCP/IP (look up Phil Karn...some of us know him as KA9Q). Heck, wireless networking owes a lot to TAPR and other amateur experimenters. Avoid anything using the microwaves--hams developed the technology to make them accessible.
Oh, you mean you want unlicensed usage? Fine. Plenty of bands for that. The ELF area, for example. Or 49MHz. You know why 49MHz, 900MHz, all those other unlicensed bands are shitholes? Because they're unlicensed. There's no responsibility for maintaining equipment or proper operating procedure. Nothing keeping the corporations off there.
The airwaves are a public resource. Ham bands are a publicly-available way to use them. Just like accessing other public resources may require licensing (such as operating a motor vehicle on the public roads), ham bands require licenses. That doesn't make them some sort of "exclusive club."
- If it interferes with Ham Radio, it also (potentially) interferes with radios used by people you may thank one day, such as firefighters, abulance drivers, police, etc...
Most emergency services are moving to the UHF frequencies AFAIK. In fact, most if not all in the NYC area are already, and I'm sure most other large urban areas have already switched. They're also using FM, which eliminates most interference.
Will the FCC care? Probably not. As long as everyone can get EyeWitless News and Clearchannel they're not concerned. Sure, it interferes with shortwave, but since VOA stopped broadcasting to North America, there's nothing on SW for Americans to listen to anyway (the FCC's hypothetical opinion, not mine).