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Hardware Manufacturers Gouging Customers
rahlquist writes "An article over at infoworld discusses that buying that used router on ebay may not be a good deal if Cisco can find its way to screwing you. What's next, buy a used Ford and pay Ford to transfer the license for the onboard computer's OS or face piracy charges if you continue to drive?"
The bad news is that they are violating the gpl. :( I even submitted a /. article that is still pending after 2 days trying to deal with this. I need to recompile the kernel on one of the units I bought from them, but they won't release the kernel sources to me. *sigh*
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
At the rate that hardware becomes outdated, what benifit do they think they would have screwing their customers out of trying to recoup some of their costs?
Not to mention that every time I sell old hardware, it is for the express purpose of purchasing new hardware. Everyone wins.
So a NetApp storage system is two separate pieces, the hardware and the software. If I decide to sell my old NetApp, does this mean I can sell the hardware to someone, and the software to someone else? That doesn't sound like something that NetApp would like.
Vote for global prefs bug
"$15,000 is still a good deal... If the ownership of a system changes, our contract says the software has to be relicensed."
If I give up my ownership, do I get my $15K back? Something tells me no.
One thing they don't discuss in the article, but which I think would be legal, would be to permanently lease your equipment rather than sell it on eBay.
E.g. Used router for sale - $ 400
versus Used router for lease - $ 400 first month, $0 each additional month.
If you really need service contracts negotiated through me, then I do it for you at a reasonable hourly rate for my inconvenience.
If people can't be bothered to READ a contract before signing it I can't be bothered to care.
I do read that sort of thing and that is why I will only buy from scum like Cisco if I have no other choice. And I usually do.
You can buy sync serial cards on the open market you know.
As for non-transferability, BS. They can probably refuse to sell a service contract on the used equip, perhaps even deny you updates. But "going after" you for possessing/using a piece of used equip would never stand in court. Doctrine of first sale allows copyrighted works to be sold by their rightful owner and EULAs are only valid in Virgina. So unless you have an actual contract with a company that specifically says you can't bring in a used box you are clear, and any such clause probably wouldn't stand in court if you were willing to spend the money to fight it. (i.e. one unit from eBay isn't worth a fight, 1,000 from an acquisition probably is.)
Democrat delenda est
Anything you sell on ebay will have a relicensing fee... including that 30 gb hard drive you bought last week. Technically speaking, it's got software on it as well, and any use of it past it's first owner who signed for it could be written in as software piracy.
We bought an EMC SAN from a bankruptcy auction of a failed telecom.
We payed $5k for the unit (bid price), which came to probaly about twice that once all was said and done.
EMC wanted some obsene amount of money to license us the software to boot the puppy up, so it sat in from of our datacenter for a few months. Then a sister division bought started looking into an IBM Shark for their datacenter that we would be using part of. Rumor is IBM gave us a $200k discount on the shark for the trade in of our EMC unit.
So we made off with $190k from the deal! (kind of) Not a bad profit after our horror of EMC's license cost!
To top it off, the EMC has been sitting in front of our datacenter for an addition 6 months or so. I fegure they don't even want the unit. They just didn't want us using it.
That's my interesting experience with this.
-Pete
Soccer Goal Plans
during the recent Big bug, I went around to all my routers, all of them used. I requested the top IOS with the best feature set for what we use each router, for each and every router, and know what? Cisco gave me .bin files for all of them. Since these came directly from Cisco, aren't these now arguably licensed?
But since you are required to pay for a support contract to get these updates, it is clear that the firmware is a separate product, even though it is delivered with the device, and the device will not operate without it. Note that many companies do not operate this way - these days you can download drivers for free for any PC you might purchase, via the internet. Even before the WWW became interesting for commercial purposes, you could generally call up their tech support, send them some money or make a credit card payment, and get the drivers shipped to you for a few bucks to cover a floppy (At the time, a not-inconsiderable amount of money when repeated frequently) and postage.
Therefore, since you must pay for updates to the software, a given update becomes almost an item of physical property. You have paid for it, and the right to use it. Hence, when transferring the device to the next owner, they should take ownership of that instance of that version of the code. It should not be considered simply "licensed" to them. After all, you paid for it, not just in some vague way by purchasing the device, but through the purchase of a support contract which is generally the only way to legally get access to these firmware images. Therefore, you should be able to transfer it, or your license to it, or whatever language you would like to use for the same thing here.
I should think it would be quite sufficient for the new owner to purchase a support contract and pick up. The answer to this "problem" is not relicensing fees, it's end-of-life. At EOL for a given product, current owners of the product should be able to purchase support for some given number of years, or commit to purchasing it, at a given price, and you will know how long you have to support the product. I think it's best to also commit to supporting the device at the current rate. As the device gets older, it will become less expensive to support, because more of the issues will be "known", and after end of life, you can refuse to add new features to the device without someone specifically paying you consulting fees for development.
This way, there is a finite lifetime to a product, you maintain your support costs, and let's face it; If someone has a support contract you will provide installation support to them as many times as they would like to move and reinstall it; This is really the only possible way to excuse charging anyone ANYTHING more than the recurring fees of the support contract when they purchase and employ a used device. If a company purchased an entire other company's assets, then necessarily their firmware licenses would come with it. Why, then, is it reasonable to charge a relicensing fee when someone purchases used hardware? It is not.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"Tague and others think the manufacturers' restrictions are just not right. "It's a flat out scam," he says. "Just because it's typical, just because the other guys are doing it too, doesn't mean it's OK."
How is it, in a nation where it is the will of the people that is to be represented and reflected in our laws and statues, our laws and statues reflect not the will of the people, but the will of an elite minority?
What more evidence do we need than this that ours is not a government by the people, for the people, but instead a government by those who have power, for those who already have it?
These businesses and corporations exist, and may operate only as we permit them to; they are by our permission.
We must revoke their permission. We must revoke their permission to buy laws which ensure their profit margins. We must revoke their permission to buy laws which mandate revenue where there ought not to be any.
What was it that the Justice Department lawyers told us, and the technology lobyist told us in their interviews; that it is naive, uninformed, and probably just childish of us to suggest that our government is in the pockets of corporations, and that corporations can "buy laws"?
What I say to them is that it is they who are naive. The corporate interests of today do not need to buy a single new law to oppress us, to wrong us, and to devestate us.
They do not, because our laws, our resources, our nation, were bought and sold to corporate interests long before any one of us were even born.
We are born into chains and we die under their weight.
If you struggle, it only drives those in power to bind us all the tighter. And they grin in delight. And they swim in their gold. And they build the flames higher.
.sig Realistic fines for copyright in
caveat emptor is one thing, but this is really taking the piss. a netapp is not bespoke software, even though it might be expensive. I don't mind a company getting paid a fair price for their product but this kind of lark puts me off them in the first place.
it's this kind of shit that got the doctorine of first sale pass for books
dave
You could kinda understand it if the company charging through the nose made generic software that could run on a number of platforms. But your average company ain't going to go buy a router on eBay just to get hold of a certain version of IOS to run on their XBox. Likewise, a Cisco router cannot be run on Linux (though SCO are probably trying to work out if any parts of their valuable IP is in IOS in case you happen to have more than one ASIC!).
The hardware is useless without the software, and vice versa. It should be treated as one product.
This simply strikes of sheer extortion. Nothing more, nothing less, and Cisco et al should be taken to task, legally if needs be, for it.
--sanx--
Windows Tweaks
I bought an 831 new (so I have the license for it) back in June. After reading about the recent vulnerablility I contacted Cisco to get an updated IOS version. I thought it would be a simple process, considering some of the comments I read here. I recieved an email back from them telling me if I wanted it fixed, I would have to purchase a SmartNet contract. That was July 18, and I am still running a vulnerable version using the ACL workaround.
I purchased a "refurbished" 3620 router awhile back and recently was looking to mess around with the IPv6 commands. I realized fairly quickly that the router didn't have any ipv6 support. I tried contacting Cisco, but they said that the company I purchased the router from was not an Authorized Cisco Reseller, and that I would have to go back to that company for support. The only other option I had was purchasing a new IOS feature set, that would cost me roughly as much as the router itself (close to US$1000). So I decided to email the company that I got the router from. Of course they couldn't directly help me, but they told me to check on Ebay. The first source I found was some guy selling EVERY image for every router/switch/feature set I could imagine, for 50 bucks. I don't know whether it is legal, but I made the purchase ASAP. The guy selling the software says that you must relicense the image you are using, yada yada yada. I am not using it for business purposes at all so I don't think I need to worry about it. But regardless of that, I found the image I was looking for, for a very nice price. Of course for people looking to get the newest image because of some vulnerability, you might be screwed. But otherwise it is a very good way to go if you are just using your Cisco for personal stuff. Good luck.
It is a pattern of magnetic domains on a hard disk, or pits on a CD-ROM.
Why is that any less physical than the rest of the hardware?
Now, some may argue that "software" is different because it can more easily be copied than the rest of the hardware.
Here is a thought experiment:
If tomorrow, someone invented a "matter duplicator" that could duplicate any item, then could CISCO have a EULA for the hardware as well?
Does this make any sense?
I think that so-called "software" should be treated no differently than any other hardware; i.e., there should be reasonable protections against making copies of it (copyrights/patents), but that one should be able to resell what one buys.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
It's all about blame and expectations.
People expect Cisco to be good. After all, it's Cisco. They've been making good stuff for years. So when something goes wrong, it's an anomaly.
On the other hand, when the new router from the new company that they've never heard of before has a problem, that's 100% failure to them.
Suppose you have 100 machines with 100 IBM hard drives and they've been working for 5 years and 2 drives crash hard today.
You wouldn't get a bad opinion of IBM hard drives from that.
Now, suppose you swap in two drives from some company you've never heard of before and BOTH those drives crash hard within 48 hours.
Would you ever buy another from that company?
Not if you're the average person.
Despite the fact that IBM and that company might have the exact same failure rate on their drives.
That's why it is so important for new companies to spend money on customer relationships. Quickly exchange hardware while charging LESS for the equipment than the established companies. Which means you have lower profits.
So I buy a bunch of Cisco stuff. Since the software can't be transferred, and the hardware will end up costing the buyer as much as, or more than, new equipment, all this new Cisco stuff immediately is worth $0 on the open market. Now according to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) assets are valued at the lower of cost or market. So these assets are now worth $0. Instant depreciation, and I get to write off the entire cost of the hardware and software as a business expense during one year, instead of spreading the cost out over five years or so.
I Wonder what the IRS will say when somebody tries this?
So are they all winking at each other, and tacitly agreeing to screw the customer this way?
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
I get sun workstations on ebay, the price is right and I enjoy using these boxes.
One can download solaris for free from sun, as well as patches, drivers, ect.
This may be bad news, they might decide to ditch the free download eventually. that would really.. suck.
I would not buy a cisco product. get a wan card and a linux box. your probably better off.
just my $0.02
Every time you purchase such restricted hardware, spin off a new Corporation.
Cisco Router Model X SN#12039okaj0123iasj Inc.
When you sell off the equipment, sell off the company. The software is licensed to that corporation. No need to relicense.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
** begin rambling **
I believe cisco gets bashed too much by the linux/open-source community. While the particular incident in this article certainly deserves condemnation, it is far from typical of the cisco experience. If we go incessently after even the best of the proprietery software/hardware companies on every little point, how does that improve the image of Linux/Open Source?
My experience with cisco:
- as a system administrator in NY in the mid 90's I was suddenly placed in charge of several cisco routers handling t-1 uplinks for a small corporate datacenter. I called up Cisco, explained that I knew nothing about the equipment but I wanted to make sure I could responsibly manage them - they sent out about 3,000 pages of documentation across 10 bound volumes overnight at no charge and informed me that since at least one of the routers was under support contract, I could call them on regarding router anytime if an issue occured. I studied those manuals for a year or two and developed substantial expertise eventually getting various certifications and becoming a cisco reseller.
When I later switched to one company and then another, I purchased more cisco equipment. In the 10 years since, I've probably managed 50+ cisco routers and switches from the 800 to 7500 series and never has one failed on me in a way that I didn't think Cisco handled it well. And, given the quality and reliability of the equipment, I've never felt that I've had to overpay.
When a problem occurs that neither I or other network engineers can handle, we call up Cisco and are connected to a senior engineer there within 5-10 minutes and they have someone stay online to keep working on the problem - even if it takes 3 8hr shifts of their staff. They provide this quality of support as long as you have a single support contract with them. On their low end routers, the support contracts are only a hundred bucks or so. I can't imagine a linux sysadmin team providing that support for the price.
Furthermore, as long as you have one support contract, their entire support database is available online 24/7 including all software updates. Yes, I try to have smartnet contracts for all my equipment and my customers, but its nice to know that I never have to worry about getting these updates.
Furthermore, there are constant improvements to the software and daily emails with updates on every change to the product lines, software releases, and documentation.
The low end hardware is cheaper than setting up a dedicated pc system and the high end software just can't be matched with Linux yet (although I am a major linux fan and have deployed nearly 700 linux servers). I've funded some efforts at different companies to replace cisco firewalls with Linux systems, none of them was ever so convincing to me that I wouldn't feel more comfortable trusting my customers to Cisco - although the PIX line sucks(consequently the funding). The only area where I think Linux totally outperforms Cisco on the network engineering level is in loadbalancers, LVS and Heartbeat totally rock over the arrowpoint and localdirector generation of products.
I'd really feel more comfortable if the open source community showed more appreciation for the technical companies (even the proprietary ones) that really try to get things right. It would show more class. Eventually, I'm sure, we will have open-source products that compete extremely well with Cisco,
But given there are so many companies with shoddy products that overcharge their customers, it really isn't worth our time to keep bashing cisco now?
In my mind, Sun is 100-1000 times worse - you can't even justify the pricing difference, let alone the incompatibilities and the lack of innovation in their products. And, most of the complaints about Cisco are from sysadmins who really haven't taken enough time to try to understand the Cisco system or even get a simple basic support contract from them. Cisco is different, it's not bad...
** end rambling **
>If you sell your used hardware to someone, then
>from the corporate viewpoint, YOU are depriving
>them of their right to sell NEW hardware to that
>person
Ehh, yes, that is what RIAA and other "content providers" call theft isn't it (and all others that think copyrigth infringement equals theft). That is, you deprive them of a possible income, hence they lose something and it is theft. SO I guess soon they will argue second hand shops are actuall big illegal thievery shops. Sigh.
Considering the downturn in the telecom market, I'd think that some of these companies would at least be willing to make new customers with some reasonable terms rather than piss them off. Maybe this is one of the reasons why the downturn happened in the first place.
Typical answer for a realestate agent, however the problem is software license, is it for the customer or the unit? If the software license agreement is non-transferable then there is the problem. Obviously companies like Cisco are hurting and putting the hit on internet companies so the can improve their cash flow. Non transferable software agreements are very questionable and I believe their validity needs a court challenge. In this case I think Cisco and the like will lose, this is clearly a case of purchasing property, so that when this property is sold the software can come with, you could do that with MS windows, in fact up until Win XP this was common, used computers stores would sell your computer with your copy of Windows as long as you provided the original disk and key code. No this is a case of dot com gouging it does not come close to being legitimate. How can you prove that the seller knew that the software was a non resaleble item. Most likely they just thought it was their copy of the software, and thought it was fine to sell it. I am sure that Cisco did not go out of their way to inform the original customer about this rediculous and legally questionable restriction.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
The vast majority of corporations out there have only one myopic goal in mind: Make More Money. They will pollute any river, strip any forest, injure or kill any worker or customer to further their mission. Basicly corporations are thinking "Fuck everyone and the magic hand of Adam Smith will save us". Unless better laws are created to protect the individual's rights in contracts, corporations will continue to screw any one they want.
I know,"Don't like the contact? Don't sign it." What happens when every new car dealer starts this or all the supermarkets require you use their "customer card" to buy from them. The RIAA would like to ban used CD sales. An EULA on all CDs would fix their problem nicely. The Magnuson-Moss Act needs to be revised to allow owner's rights to be transferred to subsequent owners and new laws are needed to heavily restrict conditions manufacturers place on goods during the sale. Of course this will never happen with all the money whores in Congress.
Can some say when the erosion of our rights will stop? I can't.
Welcome to Amerika.
pherris
(Oops, almost forgot: "Screw Flanders, screw Flanders, screw Flanders.")
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
Go ask your company accountant about what an asset is worth if it can't be resold for its intended purpose. What this means is that expensive cisco grear that is being deprecated over 5 years is fraud (the kind your CEO can get thrown in jail for). The device only has scrap value once you open the box so it must be deprecated in one tax year. What does this make MCI worth seeing how much cisco gear they own and no one in their right mind would buy all of them.
This is just an example of the way things work in IT. i.e. the vendor lock-in.
I've seen phone systems like this. You buy the hard ware and there are cards giving lines which have to be activated individually.
So there is custom firmware or an OS per line/port that needs to be paid for before use.
-Kastor
A friend of mine had some dealings with a sleazy company in Montreal that tried to screw him by attempting to steal his work and then telling the police that he stole their work, leading to his arrest. They tried to complete the project using their IBM AS/400 computer. He knew that the OS on their computer was pirated, so he snitched to IBM.
These guys were in the business of buying and selling used IBM equipment. So IBM investigated, and discovered that a lot of the computers they sold had copies of the pirated OS. Seems they were buying the hardware without OS licenses. I don't know if that's because the original sellers had restrictions on selling the licenses, or just that they had transferred the licenses to other machines that they owned. But the upshot was that IBM started contacting the customers of this company, then started demanding license fees. Naturally, the companies were pissed at the sleazy sellers, since they assumed they were buying legit systems.
Ultimately, my friend was acquitted, and the sleazeballs went belly-up.
One must make sure that whatever hardware they are buying has a copy of the OS with it...backed up several times preferably. It's pretty easy to back up IOS images... I'm not so sure about the NetApp.
... they have to pay for them... of course they may be hit with a re-license issue, but honestly you can still tell the company to f* off.
That way there is no issue when you buy or sell the item. If the customer wants support or updates
The other poster who was talking about first sale has a very good bit of bargaining ammunition...as for the Cisco rep who made the other guy pay after the fact I would have also told that guy to f*** off. The hardware comes with an IOS image and the customer doesn't have to buy support from Cisco... they just won't get any new IOS images or help from Cisco.
AFAIK at least in Germany those license terms are unlawful. There is a supreme court (Bundesgerichtshof) decision from the early 80's where the late Nixdorf Company was forbidden to charge for the software of second hand equipment.