1.6GHz PowerPC G5 800MHz frontside bus 512K L2 cache 256MB DDR333 128-bit SDRAM Expandable to 4GB SDRAM 80GB Serial ATA SuperDrive Three PCI Slots NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR video memory 56K internal modem
$2,399.00
1.8GHz PowerPC G5 900MHz frontside bus 512K L2 cache 512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM Expandable to 8GB SDRAM 160GB Serial ATA SuperDrive Three PCI-X Slots NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR video memory 56K internal modem
beware the differences between the 1.6 & the 1
by
Tumbleweed
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Okay, I just noticed this today (forgive me for being slow), but there are 2 potentially-important differences between the 1.6GHz machine and the 1.8GHz machine:
1) The 1.6 only uses DDR333 memory, not DDR400 (I dunno if it can make use of DDR400 if you replace the DDR333 it comes with). The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!). I'm wondering if the mobo can handle some Mushkin 2-2-2 PC3200 RAM if I got it? 2) The 1.6 can 'only' use up to 4GB of memory, vs 8GB for the 1.8 and 2.0 machines.
FYI if either of these things bugs you, be warned. Shop smart, shop...S-Mart!
Re:The last of the Apple-based OSX machines?
by
jeremyp
·
· Score: 3, Informative
Not even remotely true. OS X is based on the Mach kernel with a BSD userland. On top of that they put the Aqua windowing system. The only thing it has in common with Linux is that you build it with gcc.
-- All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
What does packaging have got to do with anything? Does "packaging" encode your OGGs or AVIs any faster? No? Does it get you higher score on Seti? No it doesn't? Does it compile Linux kernel any faster, no it doesn't.
This really touches on the difference between apple and most wintel retailers. It's all about Quality. Quality is a basic aspect of the way we understand reality which underlies both the classicist and romanticist systems of thought. By refering to a list of easily measurable benchmarks, you are nailing your colors to the flag of classicist thinking and opposing the romanticist side of the product. Thinking that this is OK is how horrible products are created. Some people spend their whole lives laboring under this kind of thinking; you don't have to if you think about Quality. (Full disclosure: I'm reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance right now).
Re:hurray for apple
by
WatertonMan
·
· Score: 4, Informative
I believe the memory manager in Panther is 64-bit aware. The special version of Jaguar (10.2.7) that initially ships with the G5's allows 64-bit applications and thus presumably has some memory issues dealt with. Panther isn't fully 64-bit, but most aspects of the OS don't really need it to be honest. (And neither do most applications)
Re:ObWhines
by
Slack3r78
·
· Score: 5, Informative
You know, I'm an x86 fan, and I build all my own machines simply because I enjoy it, but I have to disagree with you on the price thing. Out of curiousity due to your post, I put this together to see how a similarly spec'd PC would compare as far as pricing goes. Now compare it to Apple's offering.
I realize it's an Opteron, which is technically a server processor, but it's the only currently available chip which I would say is comparable to the G5. And yeah, there's a 9600 Pro when the mobo doesn't have an AGP slot, but that's to keep the price comparison fair. So now the premium of the apple is only ~25% instead of 1000%.
I should also note that things like an operating system and peripherals were left out of my comparison system, since that cost is going to vary due to desire/needs in the x86 world.
So basically you get a bare 1.8GHz dual Opteron for about $600 cheaper than a 2.0GHz dual G5. While, like I said, I'm an x86 fan and I like building my own systems, I could definitely rationalize a G5 purchase, and I don't exactly fall into their target demographic anyway. I really think Apple's got their act together with the G5 line. While to those of us used to building full systems of commodity hardware for a few hundred dollars, it sounds high, but in all reality, the pricing on the new systems is rather fair.
Re:hurray for apple
by
Hes+Nikke
·
· Score: 3, Informative
Hey, it's not like Apple haven't had production problems before now (*cough* G4 cube) so maybe this is smart anyway.
if by "production problems" you mean "didn't know when to stop," then yes, apple had problems with the production of the PM G4 Cube.;)
i wish that apple had properly priced that line! if you had a choice of $2000 for a non-expandable though small brick computer, or $1500 for an expandable G4 tower at the same speed, which would you do?
exactly.
-- Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
Re:hurray for apple
by
WatertonMan
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Xcode is very cool. However my problems with Project Builder relate to their very limited debugging tools and not compile speed.
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
I've asked a few people playing around with Xcode and by and large the changes to the actual debugging UI is only superficially changed. I've sent in lots of feedback to Apple but nothing has been done. This is amazing to me as adding something like Visual Studio's debugging panes would not be very hard. I'd be very, very surprised if it would take more than a week of work. But for reasons known only to them, Apple has not done it. And thus I primarily debug in Visual Studio.
Re:hurray for apple
by
mekkab
·
· Score: 4, Informative
I do some kernel programming in AIX for ibm pSeries machines, which are 64 bit chips. The OS has a 32 bit emulation mode. SO everyone will use that to begin with. Then, certain devices and drivers will require 64bit, and the apps will follow afterwards.
THAT will most likely be driven buy how many people buy the machines and what sort of market demand there is.
And yes, we are talking months, maybe years.
BEsides- you'll see more performance gain from the GHZ rating rather than from the 64-bit-ness, (unless you have a need for LOTS of addressable ram. 64bit is a virtual memory manager's dream.
-- In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Re:hurray for apple
by
MouseR
·
· Score: 4, Informative
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
How about NOT having to leave your debugging session when you make simple changes?
Check out XCode's features, notably the Fix And Continue and ZeroLink.
It makes fixing silly things a snappy process, and you don't need to restart your test suite to get back to the same point. Just fix WHILE you debug, recompile the fixed code and resume execution where you left off, foregoing any application re-initialization (such as connecting back to a server).
Re:hurray for apple
by
SethJohnson
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Perhaps this is a troll.
Macs are hardly known for their long shelf life
I'll bite. My personal experience and observations culled from working at many Mac-based offices is that Macs have a much longer lifespan that PCs. As an example, I am still using the 450mhz B/W G3 I bought in 1999 for $1800. My Dad is using a 400mhz B/W G3 he bought the same year. Both machines are running OS X.2 just fine. The only thing that had us teetering on upgrading in the past few years was the prospect of digital video editing with real-time rendering. The G5 has pretty much convinced me it's time to upgrade. Four years later and I've got a computer I can still probably sell for a couple of hundred bucks. That lowers my cost of upgrading to a G5. I think a 1999 intel-based PC will probably cost you money to dispose of through a recycler these days.
I'm not beating the "macs are better" drum here. I'm just comparing the lifespan of the mac to pc.
Re:ObWhines
by
wolrahnaes
·
· Score: 3, Informative
I was doing a similar price comparo, so I started with the Dual 2GHz G5, put in 1GB of RAM, 500GB of HD, the Radeon 9800, and removed the modem.
Summary
Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5
1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
2x250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English
Subtotal $4,045.00
I then configured an all-out G5 Fighter using prices from pricewatch.
This is what I came up with, part by part
Case: Lian Li PC-6070 ($153) This all-aluminum case has great looks as well as front panel USB2.0 ports. It is as similar to the G5's case as I could find.
Processors: 2x AMD Opteron 246 ($799 each) 2GHz, 64 bit...as close to equal as possible
Mobo: Rioworks HDAMB ($415) Being the only dual Opteron board with AGP, this was a given. It also included onboard Gigabit LAN, SATA, USB2.0, 1394, and 5.1 surround.
RAM: 2x Samsung DDR400 512MB ($85 each) Even though the Opterons only use DDR333, this was supposed to be as even as possible, and for $10 extra, why not up to DDR400 for future-proofing
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB ($318) Should be the exact same card
Optical Drive: Pioneer DVR-A06 ($166) The SuperDrive is AFAIK this same drive or an earlier revision
Hard Drives: 2x Western Digital WD2500JD ($308 each) Should be the same
PSU: Sparkle Power 460 ($81) 460w PSU with the EPS12V connectors needed by the motherboard
Mouse: Logitech MX500 ($32) The mouse is tough to make even, with no 1 button mice for PCs, so I chose one of the best mice (mouses?) available today.
Keyboard: Logitech Elite ($8) This is a nice keyboard, far better than Apple's keyboard.
OS: SuSE Linux Enterprise Server AMD64 ($448) Since you have to buy MacOS with the Apple, I included the only fully tested distribution quality OS for AMD64. This would likely be left off and most people would just recompile what they have for 64 bit use.
In total, with shipping, here are the costs for the AMD system: With SuSE: $4064.13 W/out OS : $3616.13
Bringing back the G5, that was $4045. The AMD64 system basically has the same parts, but comes up $428.87
Basically, if you value the time that it would take to assemble the above system and install/configure the OS (basically doing a Linux From Scratch to compile everything for AMD64) at more than the difference, the G5 is likely a better choice. Either one has all the software compatibility you could want. The G5 will run all of your old MacOS (or PPC Linux) apps, and the AMD64 system will run any old x86 app.
My opinion is that the pricing is even enough to negate that from the consideration.
Kudos to Apple.
-- I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Re:Text console?
by
Bob[Bob]
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Erm, so what happens when your enter ">console" as your username in the login box?
Re:It's Not That Complicated
by
larkost
·
· Score: 4, Informative
LCD's win in a number of areas:
Power Consumption
Space
No Flicker (really important if you stare at a monitor all day)
Possible digital connection (never have to adjust geometry)
Weight/Portability
Better pixel-to-pixel contrast (on digitals)
And if you get the right screens (mostly LeCei or Apple), they have beautiful color correction, at a par with the best CRT's.
This is vs. CTR's advantages:
Higher luminocity
Average color space is better (with exceptions above)
lower cost
higher refresh rate (important only in games)
So, I think your "CRT's blow lcd's away" comment is unwarranted.
Re:beware the differences between the 1.6 & th
by
tantalus
·
· Score: 4, Informative
The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!)
Actually, Apple is using very nice samsung memory (with a lifetime warranty in the g5s. And if you click on the picture in that link, you'll see that those are samsung chips on a samsung PCB, which is the same RAM corsair, OCZ, and even mushkin has often used to get outstanding overclockable memory. These manufacturers just test the memory (if you're lucky) and cover it up with a heatspreader, which will void your warranty if you remove it to see what's underneath.
Re:hurray for apple
by
Mr.+Show
·
· Score: 3, Informative
Please keep in mind when complaining about PB and XCode that while PB is free, and XCode will at a minimum come free with Panther, Visual Studio.NET can cost you anywhere from $549 to $2,499, depending on the package you choose.
Slashdot Mirror
You could like to an article, like The Register or Apple PR itself.
"Men lie."
"Yeah, about sleeping with other women, but never about bioluminescent plankton."
-Dan Brown
100,000 pre-orders according to Apple PR. Which you would have found if you had read this.
--Quentin
that Apple has over 100,000 pre-orders of the Power Mac G5. See the link.
from the Apple store:
$1,999.00
1.6GHz PowerPC G5
800MHz frontside bus
512K L2 cache
256MB DDR333 128-bit SDRAM
Expandable to 4GB SDRAM
80GB Serial ATA
SuperDrive
Three PCI Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
$2,399.00
1.8GHz PowerPC G5
900MHz frontside bus
512K L2 cache
512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
SuperDrive
Three PCI-X Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
Okay, I just noticed this today (forgive me for being slow), but there are 2 potentially-important differences between the 1.6GHz machine and the 1.8GHz machine:
1) The 1.6 only uses DDR333 memory, not DDR400 (I dunno if it can make use of DDR400 if you replace the DDR333 it comes with). The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!). I'm wondering if the mobo can handle some Mushkin 2-2-2 PC3200 RAM if I got it?
2) The 1.6 can 'only' use up to 4GB of memory, vs 8GB for the 1.8 and 2.0 machines.
FYI if either of these things bugs you, be warned. Shop smart, shop...S-Mart!
Not even remotely true.
OS X is based on the Mach kernel with a BSD userland. On top of that they put the Aqua windowing system. The only thing it has in common with Linux is that you build it with gcc.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
What does packaging have got to do with anything? Does "packaging" encode your OGGs or AVIs any faster? No? Does it get you higher score on Seti? No it doesn't? Does it compile Linux kernel any faster, no it doesn't.
This really touches on the difference between apple and most wintel retailers. It's all about Quality. Quality is a basic aspect of the way we understand reality which underlies both the classicist and romanticist systems of thought. By refering to a list of easily measurable benchmarks, you are nailing your colors to the flag of classicist thinking and opposing the romanticist side of the product. Thinking that this is OK is how horrible products are created. Some people spend their whole lives laboring under this kind of thinking; you don't have to if you think about Quality. (Full disclosure: I'm reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance right now).
I believe the memory manager in Panther is 64-bit aware. The special version of Jaguar (10.2.7) that initially ships with the G5's allows 64-bit applications and thus presumably has some memory issues dealt with. Panther isn't fully 64-bit, but most aspects of the OS don't really need it to be honest. (And neither do most applications)
You know, I'm an x86 fan, and I build all my own machines simply because I enjoy it, but I have to disagree with you on the price thing. Out of curiousity due to your post, I put this together to see how a similarly spec'd PC would compare as far as pricing goes. Now compare it to Apple's offering.
I realize it's an Opteron, which is technically a server processor, but it's the only currently available chip which I would say is comparable to the G5. And yeah, there's a 9600 Pro when the mobo doesn't have an AGP slot, but that's to keep the price comparison fair. So now the premium of the apple is only ~25% instead of 1000%.
I should also note that things like an operating system and peripherals were left out of my comparison system, since that cost is going to vary due to desire/needs in the x86 world. So basically you get a bare 1.8GHz dual Opteron for about $600 cheaper than a 2.0GHz dual G5. While, like I said, I'm an x86 fan and I like building my own systems, I could definitely rationalize a G5 purchase, and I don't exactly fall into their target demographic anyway. I really think Apple's got their act together with the G5 line. While to those of us used to building full systems of commodity hardware for a few hundred dollars, it sounds high, but in all reality, the pricing on the new systems is rather fair.
Hey, it's not like Apple haven't had production problems before now (*cough* G4 cube) so maybe this is smart anyway.
;)
if by "production problems" you mean "didn't know when to stop," then yes, apple had problems with the production of the PM G4 Cube.
i wish that apple had properly priced that line! if you had a choice of $2000 for a non-expandable though small brick computer, or $1500 for an expandable G4 tower at the same speed, which would you do?
exactly.
Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
I've asked a few people playing around with Xcode and by and large the changes to the actual debugging UI is only superficially changed. I've sent in lots of feedback to Apple but nothing has been done. This is amazing to me as adding something like Visual Studio's debugging panes would not be very hard. I'd be very, very surprised if it would take more than a week of work. But for reasons known only to them, Apple has not done it. And thus I primarily debug in Visual Studio.
I do some kernel programming in AIX for ibm pSeries machines, which are 64 bit chips. The OS has a 32 bit emulation mode. SO everyone will use that to begin with. Then, certain devices and drivers will require 64bit, and the apps will follow afterwards.
THAT will most likely be driven buy how many people buy the machines and what sort of market demand there is.
And yes, we are talking months, maybe years.
BEsides- you'll see more performance gain from the GHZ rating rather than from the 64-bit-ness, (unless you have a need for LOTS of addressable ram. 64bit is a virtual memory manager's dream.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
How about NOT having to leave your debugging session when you make simple changes?
Check out XCode's features, notably the Fix And Continue and ZeroLink.
It makes fixing silly things a snappy process, and you don't need to restart your test suite to get back to the same point. Just fix WHILE you debug, recompile the fixed code and resume execution where you left off, foregoing any application re-initialization (such as connecting back to a server).
The 1.8ghz version draws 42 watts.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I then configured an all-out G5 Fighter using prices from pricewatch.
This is what I came up with, part by part
Case: Lian Li PC-6070 ($153)
This all-aluminum case has great looks as well as front panel USB2.0 ports. It is as similar to the G5's case as I could find.
Processors: 2x AMD Opteron 246 ($799 each)
2GHz, 64 bit...as close to equal as possible
Mobo: Rioworks HDAMB ($415)
Being the only dual Opteron board with AGP, this was a given. It also included onboard Gigabit LAN, SATA, USB2.0, 1394, and 5.1 surround.
RAM: 2x Samsung DDR400 512MB ($85 each)
Even though the Opterons only use DDR333, this was supposed to be as even as possible, and for $10 extra, why not up to DDR400 for future-proofing
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB ($318)
Should be the exact same card
Optical Drive: Pioneer DVR-A06 ($166)
The SuperDrive is AFAIK this same drive or an earlier revision
Hard Drives: 2x Western Digital WD2500JD ($308 each)
Should be the same
PSU: Sparkle Power 460 ($81)
460w PSU with the EPS12V connectors needed by the motherboard
Mouse: Logitech MX500 ($32)
The mouse is tough to make even, with no 1 button mice for PCs, so I chose one of the best mice (mouses?) available today.
Keyboard: Logitech Elite ($8)
This is a nice keyboard, far better than Apple's keyboard.
OS: SuSE Linux Enterprise Server AMD64 ($448)
Since you have to buy MacOS with the Apple, I included the only fully tested distribution quality OS for AMD64. This would likely be left off and most people would just recompile what they have for 64 bit use.
In total, with shipping, here are the costs for the AMD system:
With SuSE: $4064.13
W/out OS : $3616.13
Bringing back the G5, that was $4045.
The AMD64 system basically has the same parts, but comes up $428.87
Basically, if you value the time that it would take to assemble the above system and install/configure the OS (basically doing a Linux From Scratch to compile everything for AMD64) at more than the difference, the G5 is likely a better choice. Either one has all the software compatibility you could want. The G5 will run all of your old MacOS (or PPC Linux) apps, and the AMD64 system will run any old x86 app.
My opinion is that the pricing is even enough to negate that from the consideration.
Kudos to Apple.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Erm, so what happens when your enter ">console" as your username in the login box?
And if you get the right screens (mostly LeCei or Apple), they have beautiful color correction, at a par with the best CRT's.
This is vs. CTR's advantages:
So, I think your "CRT's blow lcd's away" comment is unwarranted.
The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!)
Actually, Apple is using very nice samsung memory (with a lifetime warranty in the g5s. And if you click on the picture in that link, you'll see that those are samsung chips on a samsung PCB, which is the same RAM corsair, OCZ, and even mushkin has often used to get outstanding overclockable memory. These manufacturers just test the memory (if you're lucky) and cover it up with a heatspreader, which will void your warranty if you remove it to see what's underneath.
Please keep in mind when complaining about PB and XCode that while PB is free, and XCode will at a minimum come free with Panther, Visual Studio .NET can cost you anywhere from $549 to $2,499, depending on the package you choose.