On Character Development In RPGs

Thanks to IGN RPGVault for their continuing series quizzing videogame creators about single-player RPG character development. Respondents include Chris Avellone of Black Isle/Obsidian, who rants on CRPG spell conventions: "Almost every spell system I have encountered in an RPG has done wonders for sucking all the mystery and enjoyment out of magic", and Star Wars:KOTOR producer Mike Gallo, who suggests: "I think that somewhere, at some time, a type of stat-less main player character development will make it into an RPG."

Comments

Stats?

[Hacksworth]

But I like stats.

Re:Stats?

[Stargoat]

That's it exactly. A pretty good game call Galatic Civilizations came out recently. They tried to do a similar thing, where they removed the tech tree. The players hated it.

Most kiddie gamers are little powergamers. I hate it, and them, but that's the way it is.

There already has been

[phloydphreak]

"I think that somewhere, at some time, a type of stat-less main player character development will make it into an RPG."

Its called Kings Quest.

Re:There already has been

[PainKilleR-CE]

or basically any 'adventure' game from the 80s/early-90s.

The stats are there in RPGs to make the games easier in some ways, and to give people information they want. To remove the stats and most of the combat elements, you're back to adventure games. If people want to make adventure games, more power to them, but I think they'll find that the overlap between RPG gamers and adventure gamers is there, but not complete (in other words, while some people play both, there are also those that prefer RPGs, just as somewhere out there are people that don't like RPGs, but loved adventure games).

Don't blame us!

[DAldredge]

Blame yourself. Such spells have been in OD&D/AD&D/3E for over 20 years. It's your, and other game developers, fault that you do not program your games with a wider range of spells.

From the linked article...

"Long story short, I know as far as character development goes, I wouldn't mind seeing other avenues of magic explored that are not solely designed to buff your character and destroy an enemy... anything to give magic that element of mystery and exploration. Spells that commune with spirits, provide psychometry of objects, or anything that goes beyond "3-18+2 Electrical in a two meter radius." Spells that make you wonder what the hell they're going to DO when you let them fly."

Re:Don't blame us!

[Lord_Dweomer]

" Blame yourself. Such spells have been in OD&D/AD&D/3E for over 20 years. It's your, and other game developers, fault that you do not program your games with a wider range of spells."

Lets see you try to IMPLEMENT those other spells. Its been so far impossible without a live DM who makes the actual decisions. The reason why is that the outcomes of those spells rely on story telling. And to be truly dynamic in their usage, you would need someone live....as opposed to a scripted event.

For example, Baldurs Gate. The Limited Wish spell. I drooled when I saw that included......and then when I got and cast it, I got a small selection of choices to choose from for the effects.......not quite the wish I wanted.

I believe something like this could work perhaps in NWN, with a very complex toolkit for the DM to produce effects on the spot.

Re:Don't blame us!

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

The best RPG magic system I have seen is probably the Quest for Glory series. There are plenty of spells that aren't solely to kill the foozles.

Re:Don't blame us!

[Anthony Boyd]

Spells that commune with spirits

...are in Planescape Torment. I found it to be slightly interesting at first, but it got far more interesting when I returned to the morgue and spoke to every dead thing there. I was impressed to find that they had bothered to script dialogues for something that very few people would use. Arcanum also has this, but they did skimp on the dialogues. The spell is almost worthless in Arcanum -- even when a major NPC was murdered and I was tasked with solving the mystery, communing with his spirit did nothing. I thought to myself, "wow, even in obvious places they neglected the spell, why even have it?" But Planescape used it well. It was enjoyable.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Oblivion Lost

[CoreyGH]

This is an upcoming FPS/RPG where the developers make it a point of saying that it's you, the player, who advance in skill, not the stats of your character in the game.

underneath..

[gl4ss]

there's two choices, either character development is really the player getting better(in which case it's not 'character development' as usually) OR the stats/skills do change, even though if you hide it from the player(some games have done this already).

Re:underneath..

[PainKilleR-CE]

From the article:
In the pen and paper world, you would throw dice now or at least look at your skill table. You don't need that in a CRPG, as you can actually sneak behind the NPC, focus on his bunch of keys, watch his line of vision and then grab the keys. If the protagonist screws up, that is not due to a skill variable, but rather his shaky hands.

Frankly, if I want to play a thief in an RPG, I don't want the question of whether or not my hands are shaky to determine whether or not I pick someone's pocket, or a lock.

OTOH, if I'm playing Thief 3, those are two things I want to be able to do and I wouldn't mind at all if it depended on me rather than some character stats.

I play different types of games for different experiences, and if RPGs start to move towards other genres in terms of the experience they give us, than I'll just be playing fewer RPGs.

Stats vs Statsless

[LordOfYourPants]

I don't really see the stats as being "tired" just as being something different.

If I want to go the statsless RPG route, I play something like Zelda, where the focus is more on puzzle solving and quick fingers. Guys who once knocked off X amount of energy no longer do so once I understand their pattern.

On the other hand, if I feel like getting gratification by fighting guys who would have annihilated me 20 game-hours ago thanks to my shiny new weapon, armour, and stats, I play a Final Fantasy or Baldur's Gate type of game.

Is there a medium between the two? I dunno, it seems like a pretty clear line to me: Either you have in-game stats that empower you or you gain empowerment through getting better at playing the game itself. Is there a third option? I'm not saying there *isn't*, but I'd like to hear what the 3rd one is :)

The only thing I can even come close to thinking of is a MMORPG scenario where real people imbue you with abilities based on how they feel you've contributed to the community (in the case of good alignment) or shit disturbing (in the case of evil alignment). You wouldn't KNOW what your stat is via a number or meter, you would just have to test your mettle once in a while to see if you "feel" any stronger in a certain ability.

As far as magic goes, it's hard to say. Would FF7's magic system via Materia(?) be considered a more freeform type of magic? Linking types through putting them in weapon slots?

To be honest, most of my satisfaction through playing mage-types in RPGs has been from having a rough ride starting off the game (and a steeper learning curve) but then being able to obliterate things later on. The spells themselves haven't felt boring to me, and I've been playing the games since Ultima III.

The games that have impressed me lately don't really seem to have a specific genre. What are Deus Ex, Black and White, and Anachronox? Adventure? RPG? FPS? A puzzle game? (I know, I know.. B+W = Most overrated of all time :))

Spells

[Lord_Dweomer]

Personally, I would enjoy a spell system where you had to research the spell on your own, perhaps in books, where you would have to figure out the somatic, material, and verbal components and figure out how to make the spell on your own.

If they could come up with a way to make it dynamic enough where you wouldn't see a website with the list of all possible spell combinations within a week.....*cough*Asheron's Call*cough* I think it could be incredible.

If you want just a broad range of out of the ordinary spells.....check out a MUD called Dragonrealms by Simutronics. It's $10/month, but I've been paying it for years......simply the most engrossing game out there. Don't believe me? Check out their spell list.

Re:Spells

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

Personally, I would enjoy a spell system where you had to research the spell on your own, perhaps in books, where you would have to figure out the somatic, material, and verbal components and figure out how to make the spell on your own.

Try out Arx Fatalis. It has a magic system where you combine mouse gestures. There was also a game for the NES where you combined runes and created spells. There were a ton of possibilities. Morrowind also lets you create spells, though the spells you create aren't that different from standard spells in other RPGs.

These aren't quite what you are after, but they are better than most rpg systems.

Re:Spells

[gl4ss]

ultima underworld had a rune system too. you would find runes needed for the spells, and needed to arrange them in the correct order to cast a spell. the manual had a list of spells, but not all.

imho it was pretty good system. however, just a ton of spells doesn't make a game good, those spells should also have their uses.

Re:Spells

[PurpleFloyd]

An older CRPG called Dungeon Master used a system somewhat similar to the one you described; you had to experiment and combine different "runes" for spells, or find notes describing how to cast each spell in the dungeon. Dungeon Master's system for spellcasting was rather cumbersome, due to the fact you had to input each rune individually whenever you cast a spell, but interface problems could easily be sidestepped by setting up a "frequently used" spell list. Also, while the system was static and thus vulnerable to people posting spell lists online, it certainly wouldn't be too hard to implement a random generator for spells at the beginning of the game.

This might even be an interesting way to discriminate between magic users who use talent as opposed to study (like sorcerers and wizards in D&D 3E) in MMORPGs; sorcerers may have more power, but can't share spells, while wizards might have less casting power but can share spells with one another.

If you're interested in a modern game that uses a similar system, check out Morrowind. The whole game is incredibly open-ended. While it doesn't have any experimentation requirements for spells, you are allowed to create your own and buy them in standard fashion from wizards, as well as use lots of predefined spells. Also, its alchemy system comes a lot closer to your ideal: you can actually pick flowers and berries from plants (which have some small effects), then use a mortar and pestle to mix potions and other tools to modify the effects. The lists of possible potions on Gamefaqs run for many pages; it's really an incredibly versatile system.

Re:Spells

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite your correct statemnet, I thought Asheron's Call had one of the best concepts for a Magic System.

(Initially) There was an economy on spells to encourage people to NOT teach magic to just anyone. There was 'research', and even a system based on recipes (and Math) that players could theoretically feel immersed in.

The blatant reality though, people want it all. Economy be damned and a few (in)famous people spilled the beans to everyone. Eventually it got to a degree where you didn't even need to do the 'research', you just let a bot do it for you. Basically it was a REALLY good idea implemented well, but with huge flaws.

Re:Spells

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

Yeah, I forgot about that. Arx Fatalis is basically the spiritual sequel of the ultima underworld series, or so I have been told having not played the underworld series.

Re:Spells

[Anonymous Coward]

check out an old lucas arts game called 'Loom'. if you set the skill level to medium (maybe hard), you learned spells by hearing them. you had to then reproduce the spell from the sound. you were not given notes.

My two cents.

[August_zero]

Its like this: Magic is such a convention in RPGs, it has become mundane even though if it were a real world phenomenon it wouldn't be. Do you get all excited when you find a sword? Of course not, theres millions of them, they are in just about every game, and they just aren't that special because of this. Magic is a tool, you know when you play a CRPG that magic is going to be for delivering pain on your foes, healing and curing, or buffing characters.

I think if you want to make magic interesting, you need to make the actual play mechanics of it more complex. For those of you that have played it, think of "Magic the gathering" regardless of your views on the game you have to admit that the way that players in that game cast spells to attack, defend, and counter their opponents spells creates something closer to the way that one might imagine a pair of real wizards may face off against each other. Now I'm not saying that the next Bioware offering should include a card game with the rest of the package, but what I am saying is that the way you make magic interesting is to give it a mechanic beyond "I cast, I burn a resource, and then the foozle takes 6-36 fire damage".

I am spouting so let me give some examples of what I mean: In the game "Chrono Cross" for the PSX, the battle area had a "field alignment". When spells of an elemental nature were cast, they would shift the field to their color, and subsequent spells of like alignment would become more powerful. Certain spells and abilities could only be used if the last 3 spells or effects cast were of a specific color, say for example you wanted to throw a firestorm spell, and it required the field to be in full red alignment, it would mean that your characters preceding the one casting the firestorm, would need to shift the alignment by using their own spells or abilities. Furthermore, on occasion you would face off against foes that had very dangerous abilities that they could use if the field alignment shifted all the way to one element, and so besides trying to hurt them, you would need to throw a spell or two here and there to prevent them from getting a favorable alignment. THis system made a number of the games battles a difficult and demanding encounter since your spell resources were limited. It was a lot more interesting than the usual MP based different colored damage model that is the standard convention.

Re:My two cents.

[ShadowDrake]

The Angband games do it fairly well, in that the item is part-identified by default like so:

A Sharpened PCI Video Card (1d76)
A Scroll Entitled "zfjsrg we09ti"
A Zesty Aquamarine Potion

but until you use or identify the item, it's meaningless.

The Sharpened PCI Video Card of Threatening Other Users (1d76) (+25, +188%) (+13 attacks)

A Scroll Entitled "zfjsrg we09ti" of Teleport one level up, three squares to the right, and straight into a wall

A Zesty Aquamarine Potion of Rot Out Pancreas

This allows some great exploring fun... until you lose a 28th level Vampire Chaos-Warrior by having him read a spell of Make Dead Now.

So very subjective...

[Thedalek]

This is completely a Type-A vs. Type-B personality issue. Think about it: Type-A's (obsessive-compulsive types, prone to checking their watches multiple times a minute) want to know where they stand in quantifiable terms: You have 115332 experience points, 2142 until the next level, etc.

Type-B's (the type which ordinarily doesn't wear a watch, and rarely has occasion to need the time in specific terms) want to know where they stand in general, relative terms: You have just gained an ability! Blue Archer has gained a level!

Great character development

[Kirsha]

I remember Planescape: Torment had an amazing combination of excellent story, dialogue, characters and their development as you played along. I dont remember any other RPG where I would eagerly talk and talk with my party members as much as in this game, and get rewards from doing so!

Same Magic, but Different Situation

[Black Mage Balthazar]

The "over rated" argument aside, Black & White had sort of a free form magic system. Depending on where you used certain spells different things would happen, which may sound pretty simple, but you could get pretty inventive.

ex. You could pile up some lumber, put rocks on it, and cast a fireball on the lumber. This would start a fire and heat the rocks up, the practical upshot of which is a batch of little mini fireballs.

But for the most part magic is pretty rule based; targets: enemy, enemy all, ally, ally all, all. Some games, like Secret of Evermore, have tried implementing an alchemy system, mixing items together to create different spells, but then you are usually limited to what the game designers pre placed in the game as far as effective combinations go.

The other side of the equation is Robotrek, a game that was pretty limited, but let you design techniques(basically magics or attacks) based on button combinations. Mind you there were only 3 or 4 buttons, so you couldn't get too inventive, but at least there was an effort.

Morrowind...

[SharpFang]

...has pretty amazing "magic system"

You can buy "predefined" spells and "ready to use" elixirs, but you are free to make your own too, and the range is VERY wide.

There are "effects" like "Fire damage", "Restore health", "Cure disease", "Poison" and about 30 more.
In "Spellmaking" you can combine them in a spell, and set its parameters - duration, range (self, touch, target), target area range (radius) - and combine the effects. Say, weakness to fire plus fire damage. Chance of success and cost of the spell is calculated "on the fly" (in money - for preparing the spell, once, and in MP for casting). Of course there is nothing to prohibit you from casting Frost Damage 100 for 5 seconds on self ;)

Alternatively, you can use alchemical equipment and combine some ingredients (over 100 different ingredients, each with 2-4 (usually 4) effects), so that if you combine 2 ingredients that cause the same effect, you get elixir of specific kind, but to make things more difficult, you know only some of the effects (depending on your Alchemy skill) and so, you can get elixirs that besides desired effects have accidentially some very undesired. Say, restore health plus paralyse for 30sec. Not really usable in combat :) Getting the ingredients is another story. Some of them are body parts of monsters, some are common plants (which otherwise create pretty landscape), some can be found in mines (world famous kwama egg mines ;), some can only be bought at shops.

And finally there's Enchanting. You need a "soulgem" in which you have trapped soul of appropriate creature (by casting "soultrap" on it and then killing it while the spell is in effect, and "capable enough" soulgem is in your inventory), an item you want to enchant (the better quality the stronger "enchantment" it allows), a spell with effects you want to have on that item, and finally a fortune in gold. If you have a very rare "Grand Soul Gem" with soul of one of two most powerful creatures, you can create "constant effect" items - like permanent levitation, permanent water breathing, permanent restore health or fatigue, or you can dare creating a set of items that way, say "armor of chameleon", adding up effects of "chameleon" spell you get practically invulnerable becoming completely invisible to the enemy... although fortune required to do so is well beyond imagination of average Morrrowind player that doesn't cheat :)

Just to tell about dangers of the spells... "Scroll of Icarian Flight", fortify agility 1000 for 3s. Jump up, fly several kilometers with your jump and make sure you have "slowfall" spell ready... :)

Planescape: Torment

[stardeep]

The remark about spells that let you commune with spirits was made by Chris Avellone, lead designer of Planescape: Torment. The guy clearly tries to make games he would love to play himself.

Oh, what I'd give for another Planescape CRPG!

Is that still role-playing?

[stardeep]

> you gain empowerment through getting better at
> playing the game itself

That, to me, is not role-playing.

I'm a pudgy weakling with slow reflexes in real life, but in a true RPG I should still be able to play a rock-hard barbarian fighter with killer reflexes. The fact that my mousing skills suck should be irrelevant if he has a DEX of 17. (This is one of the reasons I prefer turn-based games.)

Along the same lines cousin Bill, with his IQ of 98, should be able to play a learned mage or fantastically talented bard with lore out the wazoo. It's all about pretending.

Heh...

[zarthrag]

I'm currently project lead of the Defiance Engine. (Also known as "Project EqTn") Which is a complete MMORPG Platform unlike any other. Our primary focus isn't graphics. While the engine is quite complex, with (intended) support for seamless indoor/outdoor environments, continous/streamed loading, land, sea, underwater, and space locales. And the most ridiculous vechicle support imaginable (I'm talking anything from a jet pack, power armor, car, tank, or mech, up to a deathstar). It's meant to run on most of today's decent hardware. But instead we're completely into gameplay. Most records/milestones set by previous/current MMORPGs will be shattered by this engine.

Planet sizes will be, well...Planetary as far as sq km go. NPCs will be much more important and numerous than in other games, and waaay more interactive.

Magic is something that we're treating very carefully, I've yet to come across a system that seamlessly allows the player to use a large repotire of "spells". But that's exactly the problem. In our game magic is much more...subjective and dynamic. The spells can be not only cast, but altered before and after casting, cast "differently" (cryptic, I know), and even countered.

We're accomplishing this using our(now fledgling) voice recognition engine. Ultimately voice is perfect because magic shouldn't involve both hands. The player should be allowed to run, fumble with items and the environment, or climb to safety while casting.

I personally hated NVN, Diablo, and other games that make me have to not only search for the spell, but made it difficult to pick specific targets, or use more than 10 at one time. Not to mention having to sit still...I died doing to rather frantic clicking more than once.

Best character development...

[Jhonny]

That would have to be FF1.... The most wonderful character development ever!!!!!