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Red Hat Linux Project Merges With Fedora

Posted by simoniker on from the indiana-jones-delighted dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Red Hat has announced a merger of its Red Hat Linux Project with Fedora Linux, a group that has specialized in providing high-quality RPM packages for Red Hat. According to Red Hat, 'The Fedora Project is a Red-Hat-sponsored and community-supported open source project. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products.' From the FAQ: 'Rather than being run through product management as something that has to appear on retail shelves on a certain date, Fedora Core will be released based on schedules, set by a steering committee, that will be open and accessible to the community, as well as influenced by the community.'"

39 of 293 comments (clear)

  1. "Red Hat Artwork" by soren42 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think it's interesting that there is what appears to be a "core" part of the Fedora team focused on artwork.

    This, alone, is an excellent move by RedHat to compete with Microsoft in a space they clearly lead the market - desktop UI.

    As the Fedora site says, "Making things look pretty is the name of the game."

    --

    "Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
    1. Re:"Red Hat Artwork" by Lord+Kholdan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it's interesting that there is what appears to be a "core" part of the Fedora team focused on artwork.

      This, alone, is an excellent move by RedHat to compete with Microsoft in a space they clearly lead the market - desktop UI.

      As the Fedora site says, "Making things look pretty is the name of the game."

      Unfortunately what needs improvement is the GUIs of the programs, not the desktop itself. Even the best desktop is no use if 2/3 of programs have awful GUI or are commandline only.

    2. Re:"Red Hat Artwork" by cgranade · · Score: 3, Interesting

      True. Look at OSX and XP (Aqua v. Luna) if you for even one second doubt that prettiness is important. Why else would Apple and Microsoft each spend millions of dollars reinventing their visual styles?

      --

      #define DRM chmod 000

    3. Re:"Red Hat Artwork" by cgranade · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This does rely on a consistant desktop, tho. Much as I hate Windows, MS has a very consistant standard for UI. Right-clicking brings up context menus (which I love), single-clicking selects, double-clicking activates, C+c copies, C+x cuts, C+v pastes, C+n is New, a disk indicates save, a folder indicates open, etc. In fact, MS's devkits (VB, VC++, etc) include standard icon sets so that developers can fit in to the Windows styling easier.

      --

      #define DRM chmod 000

    4. Re:"Red Hat Artwork" by ShinmaWa · · Score: 4, Funny

      This problem, however, is beyond the control of Red Hat or any other distro.

      Yeah, its a shame, too. If only there was a license that would allow people to see the source then modify/redistribute it as they see fit.....

      --
      The /. Effect: Thousands of users simultaneously accessing a site to not read its content.
    5. Re:"Red Hat Artwork" by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? When I right-click on something, nothing happens (Pre-1995 Windows).

      Jesus, that was over eight years ago.

      Single-clicking opens something (Post-IE4 Windows).

      No, it doesn't. Only if you turn that option on.

      Keyboard shortcuts vary with the application and are subject to the whim of the application developer; CTRL-N is a new email in Outlook, but a new database in Lotus Notes.

      90% of applications follow standard shortcut procedure, but there are always the exceptions, which aren't the fault of Windows consistency.

      MS's devkits include standard icon sets
      Icons are also subject to the whims of the developer. In the 90s, I could always tell when a new version of Visual Basic had been released, because Windows shareware would have new and inexplicable icons.

      Um...huh? What does the changing of some default dev icon have to do with the interface consistency? Most apps use their own custom icons.

      Microsoft's user interface is not consistent over time. It is not consistent between applications, except those from the same vendor (and even then it's questionable). What seems like consistency and logic in the UI is really a huge installed base and a decade of acclimatization.

      Completely false. Windows is considered a bastion of homogenized consistency (good or bad), especially compared to the hell that is the Linux desktop attempt.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    6. Re:"Red Hat Artwork" by iceT · · Score: 3, Informative

      MS has a very consistant standard for UI.

      Bullshit. Microsoft USED to have a very consistant UI. Gradually, they are corrupting individual packages to make them INCONSISTANT.

      Example: Word vs. Excel.

      Open 2 word documents. You get 2 items on the task bar. And each window is totally seperate. Use the upper-right close button to close one window, then then other.

      Now, open 2 EXCEL documents.. Two windows... Two icons on the task bar. Click the upper-right close button on one of the windows... BOTH WINDOWS CLOSE>

      Excel has always had a dependent window model, each spreadsheet was a sub window of the master window (a la program manager in Windows 3.1), but, users complained because each sheet didn't show up in the task bar.. So they completely trashed the dependent window model for Excel, and now window-management between Word and Excel have different behaviors.

      There are other consistancies in double-clicking in windows explorer, and etc..

      --
      -- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
  2. Does that mean apt will be included? by Kynde · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But isn't up2date the service they plan on making money with?

    --
    1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
    1. Re:Does that mean apt will be included? by Majix · · Score: 4, Informative

      The new up2date already available in rawhide and to be included in the next beta already includes APT and Yum repository support. The yum tool (very apt-get like) will also be included with the base distribution in addition to up2date.

      AFAIK Red Hat will not sell support for the Fedora distribution. If you want support go with the Enterprise products, of which I'm sure we'll see more of in the future.

    2. Re:Does that mean apt will be included? by warmcat · · Score: 3, Informative

      Apologies for the blatent plug, but you might be interested in up3date, which is free in the GPL, money and survey senses, and lets you autoupdate as a cron job from Redhat FTP mirrors or set up your own local HTTP mirrors for supporting multiple machines.

  3. No more "Red Hat Linux" product. by Mr_Icon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Red Hat Linux 9 was the last in the line. Instead of being "Red Hat Linux 10" it's going to be "Fedora Linux 1[.0]" when it's released within the next few weeks/months.

    --
    If you open yourself to the foo, You and foo become one.
    1. Re:No more "Red Hat Linux" product. by zerocool^ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I beg to differ with you on this one... I think redhat will still be the commercial one for at least the next release.

      Which, by the way, no one knows if it will be called Trendy "Red Hat X" or if they will stick with Plain "Red Hat 10".

      Having said that, good lord, quality control will be a godsend in redhat RPM's. If for no other reason than to make sure that THE SOFTWARE IN ONE RELEASE IS ACTUALLY COMPATABLE WITH THE OTHER SOFTWARE IN THE SAME RELEASE. I pray for the day that redhat actually tests their software, to make sure they don't do something completely retarted like redhat 8 again. For example: Bundling apache 2.0.x with mod_perl that works with apache 1.3.x, but NOT with 2.0.x.

      Thank you, fedora, for adding quality control. Redhat may only care that it looks pretty, and I know that they want us to spend $4000 on RH-enterprise, but it's important to have standards, and releaseing software *after* testing and *after* checking to make sure that it works at all is pretty important.

      ~Will //gentoo fan

      --
      sig?
    2. Re:No more "Red Hat Linux" product. by MSG · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was shocked to see them dropping mature popular window managers (fvwm et al), and classics like xtetris and xevil, as well as UNIX staples like fortune.

      In all cases, it is because these programs conflict with the goal of selling the Redhat distro as a business desktop system, with minimum variations between installations and nothing "non-professional"

      Actually, xtetris and fortune were both dropped for licensing reasons. Tetris is copyrighted, and Red Hat doesn't have the rights to distribute it. Fortune doesn't have copyrights to a large portion of the quotes in the standard databases. These items, along with mp3 software support were dropped as Red Hat (and everyone else) becomes more aware of the property issues that have from time to time been ignored.

  4. History of Red Hat/Fedora by jbellis · · Score: 4, Informative
    Oddly (for something one link away from the Fedora main page), it has nothing to do with Fedora. Still, the Red Hat timeline under History is an interesting read, particularly for someone like me who only used relatively modern versions of Red Hat. (Starting with 5.0 in my case.)

    Still wouldn't mind seeing a history of Fedora per se though. Seems like it's a more open, community-oriented Rawhide. Is that accurate?

    1. Re:History of Red Hat/Fedora by MSG · · Score: 4, Informative

      Seems like it's a more open, community-oriented Rawhide. Is that accurate?

      No, it's more like a more open, community-oriented GNU/Linux distribution. Rawhide will continue to exist as an unstable repository of packages that are being tested (as it's always been). Fedora will apparently be replacing the traditional "Red Hat Linux". Red Hat's "products" will include their Enterprise Linux distributions, developer tools, database product, etc.

  5. Never heard of it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I have never heard of this project before and I am curious as to the reason for its existence. It would seem that the Red Hat Corporation has the same function as the Red Hat Project/Fedora so, what is the point of the redundant project?

  6. Why the name Fedora? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why Fedora? Why not sombrero or chapeaux? Why pick something associated with the mob?

    1. Re:Why the name Fedora? by J.+J.+Ramsey · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because the red hat in the Red Hat logo is a fedora.

  7. What about patent-protected multimedia and DMCA? by JoeBuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Fedora currently distributes packages like xmms-mp3, mplayer and ogle, which violate US patents, as well as the DMCA. Will those packages now go away?

  8. Debian by jdavidb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sounds like RedHat is trying to achieve some of the advantages of Debian. I'll welcome this, although I won't switch any machines over right away.

    It'll be nice to get new software packages and rpms. I think apt-rpm has illustrated the need and the market for this. RedHat also has several great advantages over Debian, notably the installation process and more up to date software, so this could really revitalize them.

    With projects like Linux From Scratch and Gentoo, distribution-building has gone fomr being an arcane art of wizards to something the community can do, and I'm glad RedHat wants to partner with the community in doing this.

    --
    Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
    1. Re:Debian by SwansonMarpalum · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Having recently swapped over to Gentoo from Red Hat there are three advantages to it that are fundamentally against the Red Hat machine: 1) Strong, FLAT LEVEL community. People in Gentoo help each other and there is no official Gentoo support facility. Likewise as Gentoo isn't trying to make money off of support contracts they actively work with the community forums and support them. I think this was the big thing that made me switch. 2) Streamlined "distribution". Gentoo is a meta-distribution engineered for helping you build your own distribution package from the ground up, letting you control what will be supported by the binaries you generate yourself. RedHat has a monolithic attempt to support everything out of the box. 3) Portage vs. Up2Date. Both can serve similar purposes (though portage will do more than up2date as most anyone who's used gentoo can tell you) in that portage lets you keep software up to date as up2date also does. Portage is a free service that is integrated into the heart of Gentoo. Up2date you have to pay for more than one machine (and have to 'pay' with demographic information every 60 days). If you're confident with Linux it can really be a nobrainer.

      --
      "Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor." - Maynard James Keenan
  9. Re:What about patent-protected multimedia and DMCA by FattMattP · · Score: 5, Informative
    Although not an offical answer, the Fedora web site says
    This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic packages due to licensing issues.
    So the answer might likely be yes.
    --
    Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
  10. Re:What about patent-protected multimedia and DMCA by rute20740 · · Score: 3, Informative

    From looking at the package list, they are not listed.

  11. Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    ..."hats off" to these guys.

  12. Next objects of merger: by burgburgburg · · Score: 4, Funny

    Derby, Bowler, Porkpie and Kangol.

  13. hmm . . . Sounds like Mandrake, to me by Idou · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from open source software."

    Yet another example of Mandrake innovation influencing and improving the industry.

    I fully support Red Hat's push to be more open and community based. However, if you are interested in a more mature implementation of such ideas, please visit mandrakeclub.com.

    Funny how Mandrake started out as a knock-off of Red Hat and now Red Hat appears to sometimes follow Mandrake's lead.

    --
    Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
  14. PGP key management by tarvin · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Red Hat/Fedora merger sounds OK. One thing, though: In the past, it has been very difficult to verify the PGP signatures in Fedora's packages: The packager's public keys were hard - sometimes impossible - to find. I have looked through the fedora.redhat.com web site, hoping to find out how they plan to manage PGP-keys and signatures in the new Fedora distribution, but I couldn't find any information. Does anyone know?

  15. Sorry if this is a dumb question... by ngunton · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Will this mean that security updates will still be available for RedHat 7.3 after it is End of Life'd at the end of this year? If not then I will still be switching to Debian when that happens.

    Anyone have any insight on that issue, which is the biggest one by far at present for me regarding RedHat?

    TIA /Neil

    1. Re:Sorry if this is a dumb question... by Alan+Cox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The goal of the project is to be current and up to date. That should actually make updating easier since much of the time people tracking current updates will find they basically have the next release when a release point is declared and 'official' .iso images created.

      Even with current Red Hat 8, 9, .. upgrading is no big deal. I've taken boxes from 7.1 to 9 without rebooting.

      Supporting old releases is expensive and gets vastly more expensive over time. Its why nobody does it in detail for old releases except in the enterprise space, Debian included.

      Various non Red Hat folks have talked about doing unofficial RH 7.3 errata, I guess it depends if enough people willing to pay them to make it cost effective.

    2. Re:Sorry if this is a dumb question... by Alan+Cox · · Score: 3, Informative

      The goal is to provide as many routes for distribution as we can - both of ISO files and updates for the current version - which in generally will be following the mainstream, so if sendmail 8.foo has a bug and they put out 8.foo+1, expect the path to be an update to foo+1. We can do this with Fedora while with RHEL you have to do careful backports of specific fixes.

      With regard to custom stuff the best model may well be to set up your own local YUM repository o the extra's you maintain - either for yourself or for the world to use. Turning a collection of RPM files into a yum repository is nice and easy.

  16. Re:Will this improve Red Hat usability + friendlie by Resaurtus · · Score: 4, Insightful
    One of the main problems you are having is that you are buying hardware that wasn't supported at the time. When buying hardware you want to run Linux on, check to see that it supports it. If you don't, you will have problems and the vendor (correctly in this case) sees that that lack of Linux support makes no difference to it's sales.

    I know this doesn't sound ideal, but you're really in the same boat with any other OS, even Windows. (Some hardware works only with NT/2000 or 9x, not both, plus old hardware often loses support.) Buying hardware without checking driver status leads to pain.

    I don't think Fedora can make this better, only the hardware vendors can.

    As for documentation, try checking out the RedHat manuals. That and a good introduction to the Unix command line and vi/emacs should cover you.

  17. And what about KDE for Red Hat? by Jungle+guy · · Score: 4, Informative

    It is another community-oriented project that makes high-quality RPMs for people that have Red Hat Linux, but think Red Hat have messed up bad with KDE. Also, they allowed me to upgrade from KDE 3 to 3.1 using Red Hat 8, without breaking my system. Check these guys out at kde-redhat.sourceforge.net.

  18. Does this mean no more "Pink Tie" nonsense? by J.+J.+Ramsey · · Score: 3, Informative

    Copying myself from OSNews . . .

    From http://fedora.redhat.com/about/name.html:

    The rules for using the Fedora trademark will be generally more permissive than the rules for using the Red Hat trademarks. The separate name and trademark are necessary in order to have different rules for using the trademarks. The rules for using the "Fedora" trademark will be available before the first release of Fedora Core.

    I wish Red Hat weren't so non-committal here, but does this mean that instead of CheapBytes selling Pink Tie, LinuxCD selling Blue Jacket, and OSDisc selling Red Tux, every third-party CD Vendor will just call it Fedora?

  19. Re:What about patent-protected multimedia and DMCA by Ishikawa+Goemon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Grr... Don't feed the trolls...

    Let's see -
    JPEG - Joint Photographics Experts Group
    They have standardized it, and it's royalty free, AFAIK, but they still own it.
    MPEG - Moving Picture Experts Group
    They have standardized it, but it IS NOT royalty free, including ...
    MP3 - Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG-1 Layer 3, to be exact.)
    While involved with MPEG, Fraunhofer IIS-A and Thomson worked on and patented crucial parts of the MP3 format, AND THEY DO LICENCE IT.

    REDHAT CANNOT LET YOU DOWNLOAD IT WITHOUT BREAKING THE LAW! What about this can't you idiots understand???

    Read this...
    http://www.mp3licensing.com/index.html

    Grr... I won't feed the trolls, I won't feed the trolls... next time...

  20. At least now Red Hat will have decent KDE packages by Roberto · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://kde-redhat.sf.net

  21. okay, but.... by mattdm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Your rant is nice and all, but it's largely irrelevant. This new project exists _exactly_ to cover these concerns -- well #3 and #1, at least. #2 is a matter of style.

  22. Re:Releases by Alan+Cox · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Red Hat Enterprise Linux - long support, aimed at maximum stability (jn the sense of predictability especially), with various pricing options from the low end to 24x7 support (its not just a $2000 a year deal!). Aimed mostly at business.

    Fedora Project - 2 or 3 releases a year, and as many easy ways of getting it and its updates we can think of - including hopefully stuff like BitTorrent. I'm even kicking around an idea for some wireless "FedoraPoints". After all many people who have wireless but can't share their internet connection due to ISP rules will probably have local Fedora mirrors for their own use too.

    Time for drive by upgrading

  23. OH NO! by tempest303 · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's that time again, folks, since it's apparently a "no-brainer" now to choose Gentoo over Red Hat (or any other distro). Yes, it's time for another link to... the Amazing Gentoo-Linux-Zealot Translate-o-matic!

    --
    The Free desktop that Just Works
  24. Re:Please tell us how? by Alan+Cox · · Score: 4, Informative

    You need an update tool like apt. Upgrade the redhat-release package by hand and the tiny number of bits you need to get apt-rpm for the new version installed (its about 10-12 packages). Then just tell apt/yum/.. to update your box and wait.

    You don't get the automatic migration and addition of extra goodies that the installer does but in general it works fine and for anyone with a little knowledge adding a few packages on top by hand is not hard.

    Funnily enough the new rawhide up2date has the option "--upgrade-to-release=[version]"