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Linux Advocacy From the Trenches

An anonymous reader writes "Tom Adelstein, longtime Linux advocate and consultant has spent the last year working closely with state, local, and federal government open source software initiatives. Tom launched Government Forge,spearheaded the Open Source bill in Texas and other programs. Tom shares the grass roots efforts that have offered him an insider's view of what is propelling Linux toward critical mass and the desktop. He shares his view of Linux "from the trenches" in this interview."

20 of 262 comments (clear)

  1. Big Bully by tarquin_fim_bim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The main PC makers have held back on releasing Linux desktops only because they're afraid of offending Microsoft"

    It saddens the heart to on ponder on the technological advancements that have been missed because of this disgusting behaviour. And what is worse, is that many blindly idolise this company and it's unethical practises. Man the lifeboats or go down with the ship.

    1. Re:Big Bully by grub · · Score: 1, Insightful


      technological advancements that have been missed because of this disgusting behaviour.

      Microsoft has done more to lower the standards and expectations of computing than any other company in history. If you argue that they have lots of money therefore must be good then you just don't get it.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    2. Re:Big Bully by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You do realize the quote is from a self-admitted linux zealot, take it as such.

      I could think of a million technical reasons not to release Linux desktops.

      They all boil down to linux sucking as a desktop machine. Very few of their customers want it. How many linux dudes here are gettin' a Dell?

      It's just not worth the cost to tweak a distro for their needs, then support it down the road. And how do you support it once people start recompiling their own kernels and userspace apps - not talking about corporate world here, but the average linux user?

      The PC makers are driven by profits, not by Microsoft. Make preloading a linux desktop profitable, and watch the landscape change.

      MS's tactics haven't stopped them from shipping linux on servers instead of 2003.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    3. Re:Big Bully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most users aren't geeks and don't want, nor need, to know about every intricate detail about the OS.

      Linux zealots fail to grasp this. How can anyone not be interested in packet mangling firewalls? How could you not care which method of kerning a specific fontset uses?

      Windows works for them. Linux doesnt.

      Step one in changing that, is expelling all of the elitist douchebags from the "community".

    4. Re:Big Bully by Kenja · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I bet these people live in houses without knowing how to build one. I bet they also drive cars without being able to rebuild and engine. In otherwords people who claim that all computer users should be forced to know everything about the OS and do things the hard way, even if it is faster, are nothing but hypocrites.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  2. Open Source Procurement by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I am a sometimes Linux user, but I am not personally convinced that Open Source is a better deal for my tax dollars. If Microsoft can offer a better TCO, then the government should buy Microsoft products. And I fail to see how their current procurement procedures are inadequate for making that sort of decision. The government's job is not to interfere with the market by promoting one product over another. If you really want to advocate Linux, make it a better product so that the private sector adopts it. The government sector will follow.

  3. TCO is dead; long live ROI by yerricde · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If Microsoft can offer a better TCO

    "Total cost of ownership" isn't the buzzword anymore. The new buzzword is "return on investment". Even if free software costs more to run, it can often do more.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
    1. Re:TCO is dead; long live ROI by tcopeland · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > I work at a financial instiution

      I work at a government institution.

      > Our data processor will not support Linux

      Ours will.

      > Tech support of the industry specific
      > software we run will not support Linux

      Time are changin'; people are porting apps to Linux left and right. Witness the PeopleSoft Linux ports.

      > It's time to get serious here.

      I am.

      > We're big boys

      So are we.

      > Microsoft is the way it has to be

      No it doesn't.

  4. Linux is only lacking in the apps. by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The kernel, basic system and desktop (ala kde/gnome) is there and ready to go right now.

    Open office is really darn close, Mozilla is dead on...

    but... some things are lacking horribly...

    Examples? Video editing.. nothing available for linux can touch adobe Premiere.. not even the old version 5.0 of it.

    Desktop publishing? It's finally starting to get there with the one app we have.

    but the biggest hold back is that unless you are a medium level linux user you CANNOT install software without a fight.

    a newbie want to click on an install icon... like UT, quake3, or all the loki games has.. and Open Office and Mozilla .. they have them too...

    linux needs a unified installer system. it needs to be a click-and-drool GUI (command line capability though)

    this is desperately needed and actually USED by the developers.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  5. for those that read the article... by zoloto · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I also see history repeating itself. Remember when IBM had 96% of the PC Hardware market. Don't be surprised if you see Sun and some new market entries taking over from the current market leaders


    Sun hardware? It's one thing to have great hardware, but at such prices...
  6. What good is advocating Linux's strengths... by JessLeah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...when at this very moment, the most important (IMHO) issue Linux faces is the very real threat of being rendered illegal via SCO?

    Articles which trumpet how nice Linux is (and it IS nice for many things) are much like articles talking about how best to play DVDs under Linux-- they tend to ignore the frightening and (IMHO) immoral legalities surrounding such things. It is still illegal to play a (store-bought, DVD-encrypted... which means 99% of mainstream movies) DVD under Linux, as there is no licensed CSS decryptor for desktop Linux systems. And pretty soon, it may very well be illegal to use Linux without paying some outrageous "tax" to SCO. The fact that there are so many Linux advocates out there but the SCO fiasco is still going on (and no one pays attention to other Linux legalities, like the lack of a legal DVD player) is frightening. You or I might not care about the moronic decisions judges and congresspeople make, but I guarantee that businesses do. The greatest obstacle to the mainstream acceptance of Linux is not technical-- it's legal. (The second greatest obstacle is social... the gap between Linux development culture and "desktop user" culture. But that's another story for another day...)

  7. Do something about it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Well, discussing it here is of no use. All of us agress on these points. What would be better is to go the Yahoo Microsoft message boards and discuss why we think MSFT is inferior. The investors there ned the same FUD that Microsoft poured into Macintosh and Linux/Unix camps. This will be sweet revenge, putting FUD into the Microsoft investors, causing them to pull out their money invest in any other company.

  8. "Spearheaded"... by Fnkmaster · · Score: 3, Insightful
    In fact, the government produces and finances the production of (via academic grants) lots of Free Software. I doubt the US government has any idea how much FOSS they are themselves responsible for producing (I realize that code produced directly by the government is generally public domain, and not released under any license per se).


    The government is no different from any large bureaucratic organization, like a Fortune 500 company. Tons of developers and IT people using Linux everywhere because they don't have to get umpteen budgetary approvals to take an old Pentium machine, throw it into the corner and make it a departmental or development server. Lots of Free Software behind the scenes everywhere that's supported internally.


    Sure, more advocacy is needed by large shops like IBM of their Linux work so that large bureaucratic organizations (governments included) don't have to shamefully keep their Linux servers hidden away and can freely admit when a project uses Free Software. But this still isn't going to go anywhere toward getting Linux on the desktop.


    I think the initial adoption of Windows on the desktop largely happened in corporations first and then overflowed into home use. But these days, I don't think it's that simple. I'm not convinced you can sell organizations on making a change to something that users aren't familiar with due to massive retraining costs (or at least the fear thereof) in the modern office, where Word, Powerpoint and so on are kind. I think you have to pursue the home audience first, where you can sell people on cost, features, reliability. Of course, you have to have a winning case before you can do that, and Linux doesn't really have that yet for the desktop.

  9. Advocacy...sigh. by Junks+Jerzey · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If there's one thing that really hurts Linux, it's advocacy, especially when that advocacy is unfounded, uninformed, or overzealous. I really wish these so called "advocates" would just get on with their lives.

    Realistically, a lot of people--even knowledgeable, technical people--either prefer Windows or MacOS to Linux, or they see advantages and drawbacks to each of them. To such people, trying to force "Photoshop is better than The GIMP," or "Yes, there is a version of that application for Linux, it's [fill in name of a half-baked Linux application written by a high school student here]," down their throats is downright annoying.

  10. Why synaptic still isn't good enough by lordcorusa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    apt-get and Synaptic are absolutely fabulous apps for those of us who are experienced using Linux and installing software for it. However, they fail to help newbies because the process they use to get and install software does not map to the way the newbie thinks about installing software. And anyone who says "The way the newbie thinks is wrong" is simply failing to understand newbies at all.

    Now that I've made a generalization, let's have a specific run-through of the problem. I have first-hand experience with switching (some successfully, some not) a number of Windows users to Linux, and here is the problem that they all run into. (NOTE: I ran into this very same problem when I first switched, but I knew no one who could hold my hand through it all. The only reasons I am still using Linux are that I am far more intelligent than most people, so I am better at figuring things out on my own, and I am also incredibly stubborn when it comes to learning something new.)

    You are Joe Newbie. You've got your nice shiny Linux system running. You hear about a great app called "FooBar". You like what you hear about it and you decide you want to try it. You search google for it, and go to www.foobar-software.org. You try to download it. But you can only get source or an RPM or DEB package. (Let's assume your friend set you up with Libranet and for some reason you actually know that it's a Debian based distro -- a stretch in its own right) You download the DEB, but you run into dependency conflicts. It wouldn't be so bad if this happened once or twice, but it happens for bloody near every app you try to install.

    Now all seasoned Debian users, as well as most users of other distros, will be screaming at you to use apt-get or synaptic, or whatever other package management system. But that's the problem. People accustomed to Windows or Mac are accustomed to going to a store or a vendor's web site and getting the software they want. They have no idea that their computer might somehow "magically" know how to get it for them. Heck, if you didn't know better, why would you think your system would know how to do that? Even when you show them how apt-get works, they still often forget and revert back to the old way. It's a very deeply ingrained habit that only the most persistent learn to break.

    To make things worse, even Debian, with a repository probably more exhaustive than any other distro's, still doesn't have all of the packages (and new versions of packages) that a user wants. If that user is a newbie, having to remember multiple methods for acquiring software and knowing when to use each is a further strain.

    Granted, if a person sticks with Linux and becomes more accustomed to it, he or she will probably learn how to use apt-get (or insert package management system here) to streamline the package-acquisition process. However, it would be in open source's best interests to try to minimize culture shock so as to further help bring more people in.

    So the grandparent poster was dead-on. For example, Mozilla really does get it. Their installer is distro-agnostic and installs everything that the package needs. Even though this may introduce more bloat (redundant packages) for any given distro, it also results in an easy installation for a newbie. Advanced users will know how to get better versions of Mozilla specifically for their distros, but newbies will still be able to participate by getting Mozilla the way they know best.

    All end-user focused software packages should follow Mozilla's example of providing a simple executable installer which contains all libraries and files needed to run the software independently of most, if not all, other packages on the system. This certainly isn't the ideal setup from a sysadmin or advanced user standpoint, but it is needed to match the way newbies think about installing software.

    --
    The preceding comments reflect the author's personal opinion and are public domain, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
    1. Re:Why synaptic still isn't good enough by be-fan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, so we can't be better than Windows and Mac because people are too used to their faults? The Win/Mac way of installing software makes no sense. I want my software installed. I don't care if it has to sacrifice some virgins to do it. apt-get does that. Windows installer and its Next->Next->Next->Finish braindeadness doesn't.

      Fuck it. You guys keep the newbies :)

      PS> A nice solution to this might be to make something like a "application install shortcut." Instead of being an actual installer, it would invoke apt-get to go and install the software. This way, there would be a unified interface to the automagic package repository, and to commercial apps not in the package repository.

      PS2> I've introduced a couple of Windows users (including my little brother) to apt-get and Portage, and they think its great. I think the real problem domain here is not the absolute newbies, and not the technically advanced users, but the middle group. Those who know enough about computers to be ingrained in certain Windows habits, but not enough to truely understand what's underneath.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  11. OSS is not a religion by mattgreen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Many advocates seem to confuse OSS with organized religion. Ironically, they disparage religion for its belief system and how it limits your life, but then they turn around make statements like "Keep yourself pure -- don't install Windows XP for Half Life 2!!" I'm sure I'm not the only one that laughed when I saw "keep yourself pure."

    It's an operating system, people. Not a way of life, or a higher moral standard, or any of that. Some of us just see it as a component of life, not the reason to tell others about it.

    When I see people evangelizing Linux, I can't help but feel like they are REALLY missing the point. Linux in and of itself is a wonderful accomplishment, but its not for everyone. This is completely intentional. The Linux community and advocates thrive on not being mainstream. The feeling that you are 'oppressed' (or whatever term you want to mistakenly apply) is that which keeps the fervor high in the zealots.

  12. *An* alternative? Try *which* alternative. by duck_prime · · Score: 2, Insightful
    From the article:
    Of the lesser known, if you asked me which distribution to install for my aunt, I'd look toward Lycoris. If she was the youngest of my aunts, I might recommend Red Hat since I have had too many installation problems with SuSE.
    This displays two of the problems of widespread desktop linux acceptance:
    -- There are so many alternatives that it is hard and frightening for managers to pick one. Sounds silly, but Microsoft offers, for better or for worse, a de-facto standard on many fronts. Picking a linux, an open office-like suite, etc. introduces a huge set of choices which are perceived to have been already made.
    -- Dippy analogies like the above. Youngest aunt, indeed.
  13. Not a lack of apps, too many of the wrong people by Ilan+Volow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What's holding linux back? The linux community has a long heritage (starting with it's predecessor, unix) of devaluing graphical user interfaces in specific and usability in general.

    Isn't it odd we keep asking ourselves what stands in desktop linux's path when we all know where the unix people stood in 1984.

    A community that places no worth in non-technical people being able to get stuff done with a minimum of fuss has lost the battle for the desktop before it ever started fighting it. Every time I hear someone in the linux technical community refer to GUI's as 'click-and-drool', it is painfully clear to me as why linux is getting its asked kicked by an incompetant bunch of fools from Redmond Washington.

    I think desktops using a linux kernel will be so much better and more successful once the unix folks are shut out of the GUI design process. We let the programmers design algorithms, and we let'em design precious little else.

    Ergonomica Auctorita

    --
    Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
  14. Shameless Self-Marketing by xeo_at_thermopylae · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sadly, the guy's trying to sell his only product, himself. Anyone believe that someone other than Adelstein is responsible for this /. submission?

    The governmentforge site was created two months ago has no FAQ of its own, no downloads, and is virtually devoid of content. The Leopard site was created last month and is likewise empty of any useful content. One interesting facet: it states "Project Requirements posted 17August 2004 at Sourceforge" so I guess he can travel into the future too. Maybe he's already visited the future, seen that he will develop no software and has given up; that would explain the lack of content.

    Anyway, none of his sites has anything that wouldn't be revealed by a Google search and they all are missing a lot. They're just trivial pages of links to OSS.