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Large Scale Management - Linux vs Solaris?
A not-so anonymous, Anonymous Coward asks: "I work for a college that offers undergraduate computer science classes, and the school would like to add a new lab with about a hundred computers for students to use, for various class projects. After some non-trivial effort, we convinced the school to set up a Unix lab rather than a Windows one. However, we can't decide whether to go for Solaris or Linux. Regardless of the cost of hardware, I couldn't get agreed with my colleagues about the amount of efforts required to manage a hundred of Linux PCs vs. a hundred Sparc boxes. I believe that there are many Slashdot readers are actual managers for labs like this if not in large scales. What are your experiences of managing Linux PCs versus traditional Solaris boxes?"
"My detailed questions are:
1. Compared between these two different systems, how easy to maintain the software for all these machines (including re-installation, patching, and updating)? What software do you use to make these management jobs easier?
2. Are there any fundamental differences between managing a large group of linux PCs and managing a large group of Solaris boxes?"
The Michigan State University Computer Science department has managed both. I do not personally know how the admins found the machines to be, so you'd have to contact them. I do know they had two Linux labs and cut it back down to one, but I don't know the reasoning (or if it's still that way). I'll refrain from speculating because I don't think that would help any.
Hint hint to all the budding Linux advocates who have no experience managing labs of any machines, let alone these two specifically... speculation isn't really useful and this is a really specific use case. With computer science users you have to assume both "knowlegable" idiots, and some quite knowlegable malicious attacks.
For a specific latter of the former, we'd do OS projects that involved using the operating system support for semaphores. In Solaris (at the time we were doing this, I don't know about now), there were a very specific number of semaphores that could exist, and since certain parts of the operating system also used them, a single poorly-written program involving semaphores could easily consume them all. "Knowlegable idiots." (I didn't actually do this, but only because I caught my error while I was compiling it... if I'd run the resulting executable I'm about 80% certain I too would have DOS'ed the machine... definately a "do it early" assignment! This class, IIRC, was eventually allocated the aforementioned Linux lab because they kept hosing all the other class's homeworks, which were typically all due at midnight on various Mondays.)
As for the latter, I'm sure you are all aware of the number of security vulnerabilities in things that involve having console access or other otherwise "legitimate" access to the system.
That's the way I do it at work, all the machines boot off the network and pull their entire filesystem down from the server with rsync.
Makes the machines very very easy to keep updated (via chroot on the master image server) and practically indestructible.
The increase in my workload when going from supporting it on around 250 machines to around 400 machines was approximately zero.
With Linux you're certainly not stuck with wandering around with CD's. Linux offers Kickstart as an equally good boot server. In fact, I think it's a lot easier, as it ships with the usual bundle of helpful linux utilites, rather then the impenetrable mess that is Jumpstart.i nux/RHL-9-Ma nual/custom-guide/ch-kickstart2.html)
o te-insi ght-board.htm
(http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/l
Only thing with Linux is that you have the problem of the boot floppy, which you don't have with Sun Sparc or other systems that have the concept of a console O/S. However, if you get some new systems from HP (and I'm sure many others), they have a built-in Lights Out utility that allows you to create a remote virtual floppy, which gets around that problem.
An old document on how to do this is here:
http://h30097.www3.hp.com/linux/compaq-rem
Walking around with a CD? Even Windows people (generally) dont do that anymore!
Apple's prices for higher education are quite reasonable, especially compared to low end Sun-Solaris-Sparc. What say you?
--Paul
I'd honestly prefer linux. Three reasons:
1) Home Use: It's something you could give people to use on their own computer. The knowledge they learn using Linux in the lab won't be lost. They can go home and install whatever distro you choose if they wish. Whether they do their project in the lab or in the dorm room, they can have exactly the same setup -- if they so choose.
2) Better user interface. Sure you can install Gnome on solaris but most people hoenestly don't.
3) Better Performance/Price ratio: Price is always a factor and is correlated with performance. I couldn't stand the way matlab ran on some solaris blades which weren't updated due to cost. I eventually sucked it up and installed it on my own machine because I couldn't stand waiting literally five minutes for the machine to tell I made a syntax error. (And to all you profs out there: please, PLEASE, test your projects. My class was assigned a project using an (O) N^N algorithm. He hadn't attempted implementing the method, but it would've taken well over 3 months on a 20 proc Sun machine to run our assigned data set.)
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Personally, I'm replacing all my decent Linux systems with FreeBSD now.
I find it way easier to maintain and keep uptodate - and that without losing stability.
For system updates, you recompile it on one box, let the other systems mount the src folder via NFS and install the files.
Same is true for the ports (i.e. all the additional software). The portupgrade(1) tools make software management *very* easy.
If you don't want to reinstall from scratch once a year, you are on the good side with BSD: the system interfaces rarely change much, and upgrading even works fine between major versions.
Apart from that, BSD has
- way better NFS support than Linux, especially when it comes down to stability
- a great community. People on the mailinglists are both very helpful and inspiring.
- a long history regarding universities.
HTH.
-- I love the smell of Blue Screens in the morning.
Single Vendor Support.
...
Hardware, software, servers. All one phone number.
It matters. Anyone who says it doesn't has too much free time on their hands.
A Sun system breaks, great, you call Sun, they come out and fix it. Then, if it was the HD that failed, you type "boot net - install", come back in an hour, and you have a fully working machine.
Besides this, if done right, a Sun lab is a "WOW!" factor.
When I attended Montclair State University, most labs were PC & Mac. We had one SPARC lab -- SPARCstation 5's & 20's.
That was the "WOW" lab. Whenever the Dean needed to take someone on a tour, that was the lab they stopped in.
And I have to tell you, as an undergraduate, it was DAMNED cool to work on Sun workstations
Forget that KDE/GNOME/whatever bullshit argument. CS students will use whatever they have. It's *GOOD* for them to get exposed to other environments, whether it be OpenWindows/CDE (as it was in my day... Solaris 2.5.1) or CDE/GNOME or whatever.
A desktop is a desktop. Forget this "it's familiar" or "it's easy" bullshit.
What difference does the desktop interface make to people who are majoring in CS?
If it does, they should reexamine why they're there.
I am a former comp sci lab admin, and am currently a unix admin at a largish facility.
:)
1) How easy are they to maintain?
I've found them to be roughly equivalent on the software side of things. There are tools with each that makes it fairly easy. I think the linux tools are a bit more...widespread, perhaps. I've had extensive experience iwth redhat and their tools are pretty good. Debian also has a nice set, but my experience has been limited to fink running on os x (at least, my experience with apt). Reinstallation of linux pc's, from my experience tends to be faster by a fair margin, as well as patching. I use kickstart from redhat, and apt for rpms.
That having been said about redhat, I might think twice about them in the future. They are making it difficult for me to continue using them, since they changed their maintenance cycle. yes, I work at a big facility and we have a fair chunk of cash. No, we don't need to pay enough for another person just for new patches. Per year. We'll roll our own at that point. We'll see what comes out of the fedora project (fedora.redhat.com) and if we can use that. Otherwise, I think the next on our list is knoppix.
2) No real fundamental differences on the software side. On the hardware side, pc hardware is cheap, but then again, you can go to a local vendor and pick up parts.
Two ideas stick out from the discussion that I should like to mention. One, the idea of dumb terminals. For a computer lab, i really like it. There are linux mechanisms to do it (k-12 linux terminal server project being one specifically designed for schools) as well as the aforementioned sunrays. In either event, I like it a lot. It makes management easy, it prevents a lot of problems that you will run into with smart kids doing bad things
The other is knoppix. Not necessarily running in the machine (although that is an option) but rather going with a knoppix/debian at the lab (perhaps even on the terminals) and then being able to give a cd to the folks in the lab and saying "this is what we run, you can run it at home, and don't have to delete anything"
Ok, a third idea comes out as well. I like os x a lot. I've grown to like it as much or more than linux. I'd seriously consider that route. They do give some serious education discounts. The tools are there on os x as well. It's a good system.
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
I'm going to have to correct you there on the software issue. The latest Solaris 9 now ships with Gnome in the core install, not as an add-on. Perl has been in core Solaris since 8. Staroffice is still an addon, but for good reason. 80% of solaris users run it on servers, and most people don't need StarOffice taking up disk space on their database or web servers. But if you do get the Solaris media kit, it comes with a CD to install StarOffice, no need to go download.
I most definitely have to agree with you on the hardware though. SUN hardware is top of the line, and they have the warranty service to prove it. All sun hardware comes with a minimum 1 year warranty on parts, the workgroup servers come with a 3 year. All desktop class machines come with a one year ONSITE next-business day warranty. That means if you have any sort of hardware problem, call the support line and if you're in a city with a Sun office the next day you'll have a SUN system engineer in fixing you desktop machine.