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Experts Discuss Virtual Theft And Real Crime
Harlequeen writes According to the BBC, police forces across the globe are looking into whether on-line theft in MMORPGs can be considered a real crime. A law expert called in by the BBC seems to think they can, but does virtual crime need real justice?" The piece takes earlier revelations about Korean cybercrime as a starting point, and Dr Roger Leng of the University of Warwick agrees that "the law has no problems treating the intangible as valuable", suggesting: "It's possible to steal any form of property right which is not represented by tangible objects."
In an environment such as many RPGs create, "Thieves" are a class of characters. While I certainly don't support Grief-killing or otherwise, I think any legal team would have a hard time proving that the Thief class was not intended to steal, and therefore should violate any sort of law.
Furthermore, since most EULAs include statements which claim the ownership of the content to be the company, players stealing from players is not stealing in the sense that property is physical changing ownership, because the company still owns it either way.
I lose all the time at computer chess. Should it be a god-given right that I should win?
Ummm ... I think they are referring to theft of actual items in the game by way of exploiting the software in a 'cracker'-type fashion, not in an RPG fashion. They seem to be interested in the cases where someone logs on, and their character's keep or whatever is gone, and the property of another player through an online auction, not in the sense that a 14th level thief picked the pocket of the character ... I hope this makes sense!
is it that bad seein a hot chick again? if i see a hot chick walkin down the hall i dont say "repost"
Couldn't the game itself be considered a law unto itself?
Look at it this way, the game was created by code, a set of rules, which defines what can and cannot be done. When you play the game you are saying that you wish to obey these rules. You are saying that you want to play a character that can beat or be beaten by other players or NPCs. It's kind of like a contract between you and the game company.
Then if your character has it's loot stolen it's not their fault. You decided to play a game which has rules for crime. You agreed to play a game where this could happen, and so it's your own fault for getting so emotionally attached.
What's next? Could I be put on death row for killing my buddy in Halo?
would you like a real example of virtual theft and crime? well good, because slashdot is a perfect example! why slashdot? slashdot has stolen my life from me, thats why! how, you may ask?? i can no longer do anything with my miserable life execpt constantly refresh /. and troll in all the comments. because of this, i have lost contact with all my friends, have pretty much no personal hygene, become impotent, and just live my entire life sitting in front of this damn computer with /. stuck on it 24/7, getting fatter by the hour. this, my friends, is a virtual theft of my life, and i charge slashdot guilty with the crime!
Virtual objects are valuable because people pay for them. Simply having value, however, does not make property law apply to them. The owners of the game, of course, are effectively God and can do anything they want, including taking your objects or character. Since these objects aren't really 'yours', having them stolen is irrelevant. Selling virtual items is like selling land on the moon. You can do it, but simply giving money for something doesn't actually earn you any extra rights to that object.
-Splat
There's a difference between stealing within the game environment and stealing by hacking a computer to get the game item. Where the line is drawn however is a good qeustion.
'Does might make right in online games?'
Personally, yes I think so. So long as MMO games remain small and relatively undeveloped, the law would doing nothing but stepping into a giant pit of political arguments over online rights when MMO games develop past the 'basic level up and gain many powerful items' formula.
Is it illegal...
:Masquerading as user .....
1: To pickpocket an item in game to your char?
2: To open a chest/drawer in a char's house?
3: To trick user into doing something bad
4: Threaten to PK them if they dont do X
5: Blackmail information about ingame happenings
6: Use a cheat that drops or transfers items
7: Steal an in-game item being sold on Ebay
8: Stealing an account password, transferring items and then logging out
9: Plain stealing an account
10
11: Stalking user
12: Be an ingame harasser that accepts real money to leave alone
And the list goes on.
Boy, do I wish that there's some sort of sembalance of rules that can (or not) be applied to online games with realistic monetary systems.
Thieving via hacking is a whole 'nother story. This is a case of where your losses occured because of something that wasn't supposed to happen: server security being compromised. In many other frameworks, this is already illegal. The article uses banking as an example, which is mostly electronic these days:
If you think about it, there are a lot of parallels to online gaming items: like money, many gaming items require time and effort to get. (With eBay auctions, good items can even be directly exchanged for money.) Like your account balance, you expect your character and items to be safely there when you return. People can consequently be pretty upset if that's not the case.The point is somewhat moot because hacking your way onto a company's server is already illegal anyway. The real problem is going to be enforcement -- given the relatively small dollar value of most of these items, and the fact that hacked game servers won't be perceived as a mainstream problem, chances are that even if such cases are acknowledged to be illegal, it'll be hard to get them investigated and prosecuted.
The bold print giveth, and the fine print taketh away
Shouldn't it be covered in the user agreement? I admit that this would make it an issue between the miscreant and the software company (and we all know they can't be bothered to follow up on cases where actual users incur actual losses vs. their own intangible rights or percieved potential profits)
I'm surprised how many posts thus far seem to be confusing actions *within* the game with unauthorized access to an account or private resources (which is already a prosecutable crime)
Stealing or temporarily usurping a character could be used to do many nefarious things like trying to hack the server or US law enforcements favorite current bogeyman: facilitating concealed communication between terrorists. Think of the damage that can be done with any stolen account on any other type of server.
Give them online community service.
100 hours of helping out n00bs will be enough to persuade even the most hardened criminal to repent.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
I don't think it's logical to pursue a virtual crime, done in a virtual world, in real life. Note that this excludes hacking a server or a user account, which has to happen in the real world, and is therefore a matter of the "real world law".
In a virtual world, the aim is - explicitly! - to create an experience not connected to real life. That's why people play online games, to escape (if you want to call it that) from real life, and do things they can't do in reality. It's the purpose and the gist of online games. So if (mis)behaviour online affects real life, you take away the basis for those games.
Just to be clear, I don't think that running around PKing everyone (exception: FPS) and using rude language is ok. But if you misbehave online, it is sufficient to be banned from a server. No need to file a lawsuit.
My cats ate my karma. They also wrote this comment.
I think I'm missing something here - virtually every RPG will have some class that could act as a police force right (guards for example)? If I steal something from someone in a virtual world and they find out it was me then I would expect the guards to be informed and take the necessary steps, and I would have to work harder to avoid the guards and, if caught, expect to be punished in some way (skill reduction, attack, whatever). If they don't find out it was me, I'd expect the guards to be informed of the theft and, if it happens regularly, I'd expect them to organise themselves to try and track down who was doing it.
The virtual world shouldn't need the application of real world laws for virtual crimes because if it is working correctly it should create its own internal laws, enforced by the players or NPCs.
I just Killed 20 or so noobs with my boom stick in PlantSide am i going to get Life or The Chair?
...if I win at Monopoly?
The article reads like it is mainly in game players roving around as thugs. If it is in game, I don't think that actions outside of the game universe should effect it. I think the solution would be to hire guards or taking Ankh Morpork example start paying the thief's guild protection money and make them responible. :)
All I know is that I'd be very upset if the cops didn't have time to look for my stolen car because they were busy surfing eBay trying to locate someone's stolen +4STR Sword of Whoop-de-Doo.
I disagree with the law expert. MMORPG items and money may look like property but they fail a critical test: They require no effort from the MMORPG company to create or destroy.
Property does not exist in a world where the president of the MMORPG company can wave his hand and become a "billionaire", or strip people of their possessions solely for the sake of plot. Or heck, just for fun for the programmers. For instance, when the Beta of an MMORPG ends, and all the chars are reset for the production release, if someone sued to get their Flaming Sword of Main Antagonist +34,532 back, would we think they had a case? (No.) What if in the new production version there was no Flaming Sword of Main Antagonist +34,532?
Even "intellectual property", which I also think is a misnomer (though unfortunately I haven't yet published the part where I explain how we should think of it), at least requires effort to create. (It fails to be property in other ways, but not this one.)
Moreover, I'm not aware of any property that can be legitimately destroyed legally by a simple server glitch. You can create "IP" and even if you do it on a computer and the computer crashes, you still theoretically have the rights to it (although you may not be able to exercise them); the crash destroyed your only copy of the work but not your rights, which is all you actually be said to "own". A computer glitch may convince the bank or the government you don't own your house when you do, but we still behave as if there is a higher "property"-ness, beyond just what records say; you'd have the right to correct these records, even government records. Also see squatting laws. For MMORPGs, if the property is destroyed via glitch, you have no recourse, not even in theory.
Basically, it may look like property, and it may walk like property, but it does not quack like property. Therefore, it is not a duck. I mean, therefore, it is not property.
It ought to be possible to handle in-game theft with in-game consequences. I don't have much experience with the latest crop of MMORPGs, but I'll draw on an example from Ancient Anguish, a MUD I used to play.
In Ancient Anguish, thieves existed as a character class with the ability to do certain not-nice things to other characters, such as steal their items, poison food/heals, etc. However, just like in the real world, society frowned on stealing what didn't belong to you. Hence, in-game laws existed which prohibited theft from players even though the gaming mechanisms existed. This parallels real life, where you can certainly try to steal things, but woe to you if you were caught.
The probability of success was appropriately propertional to things like the value of the item, the level and stats of the thief/victims, lighting conditions, and so forth. Unsuccessful attempts had a (non-negligible) chance of being noticed by the victim and/or bystanders. Anyone witnessing theft could file a report with the local in-game authorities, who would then place a "bounty" on the head of the thief. This resulted in a large number of PC bounty hunters (which was a popular profession) being given license to hunt down and PK the player -- kind of a rough "frontier justice". Since death resulted in loss of a level and stats, this represented a serious deterrence to thieving.
In this fashion, in-game theft could be made to parallel real theft. It was certainly possible to steal things, but you better not get caught or you'd be in trouble with the rest of society. It also taught other players that they had to be careful with their items and money, and to consider buying safeguards or insurance.
The same framework can be (and was, in AA) extended to any other sort of activity that society would frown upon, such as PK'ing or griefing. Most players agreed the approach worked very well in discouraging unwanted activity; in fact, by adding societal values to the game just like in real life, it actually helped make the game feel more realistic.
The bold print giveth, and the fine print taketh away
...the IRS can't tax it.
When a real govt can levy real taxes on the profits from selling a small
Naboo house in SWG, then real-world laws can be applied.
I think this is getting way out of proportion. People are getting way into these games. These games are made to be fun. When people are take is personaly its not a game anymore. Iv heard stories that people have commiteted suacide becase there char died in everquest. I agree that this is an "out" for some people but companies are going to have to take a deeper look at the way there games are affecting there players. What is this going to lead to...are there going to be the same laws in todays life in a game. Whats the point of playing the game anymore. I know people that play these games just to steal and kill people. As sad as that sounds. If someone steals your sword , steal it back. There is the law. And if losing your sword makes you want to kill someone....dont play the game.
no, a nut house is crying for you
Even though this whole discussion has a stench of retardation I'll chip in my 2c.
Here is how to distinguish if virtual action directed against somebody is a crime or not.
If it's done within confines of everything the game programming meant to allow - it is NOT a CRIME (such as breaking into house, theft of property, murder etc...
However if action is done outside of the game, or inside while exploiting possibilities that were not meant to be allowed (i.e. hacking, stealing password, stealing items/characters outside the game) it is a CRIME
First off, one person can't steal from another in-game because nobody owns anything. The company who made the game owns it all.
Second of all, could you imagine the ramifications if this actually gained substance? I kill someone in PvP, loot their corpse, and instead of whining about griefing, the victim sues me? How silly.
Third, the more interesting question (to me) involves slander (libel? whichever's verbal). Now I can see a provocative question.
-Jeff
Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
Also, we need to prosecute basketball players who foul other players. Send them to jail. Imagine the psychological trauma a foul can cause. And hitting a golf ball into the lake should be punishable by a severe fine.
get real.
You sell an item for real-life cash. Your character (who happens to be a thief) transfers the item, in-game, to the buyer. The thief (strictly within the context of the game) then steals the item back. Should you have a legal ground to get paid still (assuming you haven't already received your money)? If you have already been paid, should he have legal ground to get his money back?
So, what if you wait a week before stealing the item back, does that change your answer?
Note: I never said "DOES he have legal ground", but rather chose the wording "SHOULD he lave legal ground", because I believe this is an issue of how things SHOULD BE rather than a debate on how things currently are. However, it could be discussed in either sense, I just find the former more interesting.
A modern day witchhunt.
That's like saying that you should pay taxes on monopoly money.
I love NetHack.
How about virtual punishments for virtual crimes. In other words, hire a sheriff and string up the offenders ONLINE. No use appealing to another plain of existance just when you don't get your way. Does God strike you down with a lightning bolt cause you broke a law in the real world?
As for those who lost stuff online: life's a bitch, deal with it.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
I was playing street fighter and someone playing as Ryu assulated me! I was knocked out TWICE by the person. I plan on involving the police!