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What to Do When Your ISP Steals Your Domain?
sahonen asks: "Some web hosting providers also provide domain registration on the side, which is great for users who want to keep things simple. What ends up happening, though, is the user will want to switch hosting providers, but their old host will hold on to the domain to try and lock the user in. I've seen this happen many times and it's not pretty. This happened to a friend of mine just recently and he's asking me for advice. I don't want him to have to buy another domain when he's worked so hard to establish his old one. Aren't domains legal property (we are in the US here)? Can he nail the old host for cybersquatting? And for the philosophers, how do these hosts expect to maintain a good reputation when they engage in such unscrupulous business practices?"
this makes changing hosts trivial... In terms of moving the domain anyways.
Q: What to do when someone steals your domain?
A: Slashdot Them!
It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
This is why I host everything for my domain myself. Its hard to trust any company in this day and age.
"The road from legitimate suspicion to rampant paranoia is very much shorter than we think." - Picard
IANAL, but check the agreement he had to sign when he registered the domain. It may have said something along the lines of "we, the Company, hereby retain all rights of ownership to the domain. In exchange for a monthly fee of $[amount], we will allow the Customer usage of the domain." If it's got something like that, there's not much he can do, since they legally own the domain. It's underhanded and unethical, but still legal.
The ISP is the one who actually owns the domain is what it sounds like. Since you're just renting it from them it looks like you can't get it from someone else for now. However, perhaps a solution to this is going ahead and getting a new domain and making the old one link to the new one for a month or two, then switch.
Check with your "friend" (this is you isn't it?) and see if he trademarked or copyrighted his company or domain name. Then merely have the ISP served with papers to transfer the name. To be honest though, your friend shouldn't have signed up unless his name was going on the ownership documents. I'm sure this could fall under some sort of class action. If it's a bigger host, then there would be a lot of people involved. This doesn't help in the interim though. He may be just stuck. If the ISP has decent legal, they may have just registered the domain for him and then "rented" it to your friend.
/* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
Back when I was helping a friend with his startup ISP, a few customers just decided they weren't going to pay. Our names were on the domain and the registration, and we were pretty nice about all of this until one of the guys let on that the others KNEW that we'd never turn them off because we were too nice to be in business and that they had all talked and decided if we were going to force them to pay, they'd go with one of the other guys (former friend) that had started an webhosting business himself.
I ended up redirecting those guys domains to porn sites and removing their names from the registration to ensure that it had to come though us.
That was my last task before I decided they were right...I don't like being a jerk and certain sectors in business were not what I wanted to deal with if thats what ya had to be, and I picked up my current university gig (as well as freeing me up for my other consulting gig -- see above URL).
Sadly, my former partner didn't agree with my opinion that he should keep those domain names current so they never could get them back. Joker is like $7 a year, and that would have been about $35 at most...well worth it...about 6 months after this, they started getting their domains back, but without the traffic they use to get.
There is always two sides to these stories...I don't know the other side of the story with the original poster, BUT there is probably something we aren't hearing (even if the guy IS morally correct).
If that is the case, then you don't have a domain squatter. You have theft through deception. Take them to court.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
BTW, domain name disputes cost $1000 to $2000. So if the ISP is asking less than $1000, that may be your cheapest route out of this mess, as morally repugnant as that sounds.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
I checked the legal garbage at (http://www.olm.net/standardpolicies.html) and there doesn't seem to be any provision about OLM.net keeping domain name rights. Hit them with a complaint, and file complaints with the Better Business Bureau, etc. By the way, since your friend's site seems to be /.'ed, the Service Agreement here (http://www.olm.net/sla.html) says your friend is due some refund because his site is down....
Nowadays, it's really easy (and cheap) to buy a domain, but a lot of customers prefer to let the ISP/hosting company do this for them. Back in the day when there was a single registrar for .com, .net, etc, and the procedure involved complicated e-mail forms this was understandable. But today, buying a domain is as easy as buying a book on Amazon.
If, however, you insist on having your ISP do this, make sure that you are at least one of the listed contacts and, if the admin is done via a web form, make sure you have the password.
This probably doesn't help your friend, tho. I guess he can send a letterheaded note to the registrar and at least dispute the domain.
To act as devil's advocate: some ISP do hold onto domains whenever the business relationship is not terminated properly (say, the customer didn't give due notice, owes money, etc). I don't know if this is the case of your friend, but it would help to ask the ISP why they think they should hold onto the domain.
Obligatory Note: IANAL.
No sig
That's obnoxious. Your friend should transfer the domain to another registrar with less obnoxious policies. Alternately,
He should check his account to see if his domain is "locked". Allegedly, registrars allow customers to lock their domains so as to prevent unauthorized/"accidental" transfers to other registrars. I say allegedly because domain locking is often a scheme to make it unnecessarily difficult to change registrars when you really want to. Many times when a domain is locked, it is not because the user locked it but rather because of some obscure rule in your registrar's terms of service - rules such as "you are not allowed to transfer your domain(s) to another registrar within 60 days of initial registration or within 14 days of expiration".
If your domain appears "locked" and there is no obvious reason why, and no obvious way to "unlock" it, you'll need to call into your registrar, have them unlock it (expect long hold times and a shitty sales pitch to get you to stay with them), and then repeat the transfer request at the new registrar.
At least three of the registrars I have dealt with (register.com, cheap-domainregistration.com, netsol.com) have shady domain locking practices. For my money, I've had positive experiences with GoDaddy Software.
There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
Best practice is to buy it yourself from a place like GoDaddy, then just set up your DNS. Its not rocket-science. But the details are always in the fine print. My last hosting provider stated outright that they would transfer for only the cost of the transfer fee, if one is charged. And, BTW, despite being in the US or not, domains are only legal property if the registrar makes it. Check out the fine print for the .ws registry one day - website.ws - they operate in the US and state that you are leasing the domain for x number of years at a time, but the domain is never your's. It always remains owned by the founders of Global Domains International... the owners of .ws
" And for the philosophers, how do these hosts expect to maintain a good reputation when they engage in such unscrupulous business practices?""
Reputation doesnt matter for most of them. All they need is to gain an equal or more amount of customers a month than they lose and theyre making money.
Most of the hosting companies out there just want to make money, they don't care about whats right. Most are just paper engineers that want to make aquick buck and end up bugging me for the most simple stuff.
I've had an admin of a hosting company (nameless for obvious reasons) ask me how to 'rename a folder' in linux. These are the guys admining your website. Feel safe now?
Always talk to your admins before signing up. It will show you what kind of support you get, and how their service will be.
(ObDisclaimer: I work for a hosting company. I wont name it so as to retain some credability.)
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
The Register reports that domains are like property.
IF you own the name you own it like property (in the USA). Whose name is on the records?
If not your friends then look at the registration advertisements and agreements and see who was supposed to own the name he paid for, maybe fraud took place at registration
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
...by getting the site slashdotted.
it's "sharing"!
Expect to see your domain traded on Kaazzzzaa.
Get thee to a barrister's office, my friend.
While (in my experience) not 100% reliable,
MyDomain.com seems one way to go...
They sell you the domain & re-direct your
visitors' uses of your domain to your
site, eg at you hosting service or ISP.
You don't even need to buy a domain from them!
Ie, if you have a domain, they'll re-direct
visitors to your site's actual location FREE
Also, they can redirect eMail (either all
send to @your_domain_here.xxx.xx
or using each username's to re-direct eMail
to corresponding "real" addresses.
(or combinations of 1-to-1 for individuals &
all the rest to one "catch-all" address)
It's easy to use, and free... but - as hinted -
not 100% reliable.
And not quite as fast as a Duynamic DNS
might be at re-directing to dynamically
allocated IP addresses, but doesn't have
to be, then, does it... mostly...
I'd say it depends on their terms at the time you were with them. If they're violating it, it's a simple breach of contract. If they keep the rights to the name in the ToS, it's more involved. I'm no lawyer, but I see 2 ways out then:
- the ICANN/WIPO route
- register the trademark and sue for trademark infringement in a US court*
*this might work even if it's not registered, but I'm not positive. I say definitely consult a lawyer on this one!
I was involved in a somewhat related situation. Here's what happened:
I used to work for a software company. I registered a domain for that software company through register.com and *MY* name was on the domain registration. I never actually transferred ownership to that software company, but leased the domain to them under a verbal arrangment. Their website was handled by XO and the domain registration was still handled by register.com
Software company gets acquired, and the new owner doesn't want to use the domain. Instead, appoints some scumbag to try to auction it off. Only problem, of course, is that the domain is still owned by me, and it was never theirs to sell.
Scumbag decides he wants control of the domain and sends a threatening lawyer-writ letter to both XO and register.com. XO AND register.com decide that the whole UDRP thing is just too complicated and simply lock me out of the website, my POP account, my register.com domain management account, and everything else related to that domain. Unbelievable. Take my credit card off the account, basically pretened that I don't exist anymore -- EVEN THOUGH my name was on the account, I was paying for the hosting, paid for registration, etc. I called, yelled, screamed, etc. Neither company cared...they just caved to the most scary-sounding letter and "wanted to avoid trouble". Scumbag thought he won.
So what did I do? Transferred the domain to new registrar (domainmonger.com -- very cool guys who actually respect the UDRP). Luckily, the automated register.com system let that happen, and all of a sudden, the domain was back in my (rightful) hands. Lots of people got pissed off when all of a sudden they realized that many lawyerletters had changed hands (and money was spent) and they had nothing to show for it. Tried the same approach with domainmonger, and got a simple "please refer to the UDRP if you wish to dispute ownership of this domain" right back in their faces. Upon realizing that a dispute takes time and money, they quietly shut up and went away.
Ferrari and other exotic car rentals in New York
I run a Linux Virtual Private Server Hosting company.
I've been considering providing a domain name service. But I think its in people best interests to decouple their domain name from their hosting provider. Why?
You can probably get the domain cheaper from a domain name specialist. GoDaddy and the like.
Places like ZoneEdit offer an unbeatable, easy to use, reliable and free DNS service. Or you can just to it yourself on your VPS. You have root right?
If you need to move hosts then there is no third party (ex host) to get in the way. Even if they are a fair host, you still have issues over controlling the timing of any changes. With your own domain/DNS, you can time your switchover to the within a few minutes.
Finally, if you didn't get the domain name yourself to begin with, and if you are relying on your old webhost for the transfer, then just be persistent with them. If they treat you unfairly, tell the world or find if they are listed on a review site and provide (an accurate and fair, of course) review of what they did.
Take it up with CORE or see if Ari (esqwire.com) can provide any advice/assistance.
I am the owner of OmegaSphere, a web hosting company (among other things). We frequently get customers who wish to switch to us and realize that they don't actually have their name on the records of the registration -- its shocking the number of web hosting companies that put their own names on the registration as a means of holding their customers hostage. Its not good for the customers, and its not good for the reputation of the industry.
To a large extent its a problem that can only be solved through education, i.e. people knowing they should be the ones with their name on it.
Sometimes I have been able to help clients transfer their name to us and fix the records despite the best attempts of their old (and now about to be bad-mouthed everywhere) host, using various methods which I won't go into but people are welcome to contact us about if you want some help...
I don't quite understand the logic of it: Your customer has decided to use a different company as a host. They blackmail you with your domain. After you have the situation resolved, whether it is by accepting the blackmail or other means, are you going to: A) Tell all your friends that you simply prefer your new host, or B) Tell all your friends what a HORRIBLE experience you had with your old host, NEVER do business with them, and by the way my new host is awesome. Etc.
I would suspect B.
Never underestimate the power of word of mouth, especially in the internet age. I know its how we get a lot of our customers -- but it could just as easily be how we lost them if we started acting against the best interests of our customers.
SSL Certificate
if you didn't read the contract which tells you whether the domain name is yours or just rented, then just learn and move on
when you do things for the first time , learn to ask the important questions and don't assume.
before you leave the old host, put a message on them forwarding users to the new domain name, and a copy of your account on what is happening. the old host is only going to hold on to the domain for as long as it seems useful
If you surf down to Score:1 (or visit http://slashdot.org/~sahonen and surf his replies ) you'll find the following:
"Dan Cervantes is the owner of the Big Boy Drum company. The problem is that the ISP won't let him transfer the DNS to the server he wants to move his web site to, actually a web host I run. No, I won't plug it, 'cause we're near our bandwidth limit already."
Since when has a ISP had any control over DNS changes? Why even talk to them about it? Go directly to http://www.corenic.org/ and move the damn thing yourself.
"As much as a refund would be nice, the site was down before it got linked to on slashdot, I think the ISP took it down when Dan cancelled his hosting. But they kept the domain name."
They don't have the domain name. Whois clearly says that Dan does. It sounds to me that you simply don't understand the difference between an ISP and a DNS.
No Zen is good zen
1. Copyright of all material on the site remains with the author.
2. No Electronic Theft Act and DMCA both could apply.
3. Attack "boilerplate" contract terms as non-bargained for contracts of adheasion.
4. Quantum Meruit (for what it's worth); a method of retaining your work product.
5. Promissory Estoppel: We HOST YOUR DOMAIN does not mean we host our domain that YOU BUILT.
Three of these actions can be brought in courts of limited jurisdiction (NOT SMALL CLAIMS), and they can be very quickly decided - but you will have limited the value you assign to the domain by selecting the limited jurisdiction court.
I used to resell hosting to clients and we would register their domains for them and point them at the webhosting servers that we were resellers for. About 79% of those domains we registered in our own names simply to make life easier on ourselves when it came time to pay the bills or make changes. Many of the customers we did this for had so little understanding of what was going on with dns vs hosting and the facts of owning a domain that it was just much simpler to do it this way.
:)
However whenever a client asked about this or wanted to transfer to another webdeveloper or host we always facilitated this and transfered the domain to their name and worked with the other developer to transition stuff.
Reputation was everything in our business and we had a very reputable reputation
Since Mr. Cervantes is listed as the Admin contact for the domain, all he has to do is contact the registrar and change the technical contact for this domain to himself, then he can set the nameservers to whatever addresses/hostnames he pleases, whenever he pleases. Do bear in mind that once you change you nameservers on the domain record, it may take as long as a day or so for the updates to propagate around the planet.
From the CORE web site:
"Changes to CORE domain names must be executed through the CORE member which is associated with the domain name."
In this case, the CORE member is olm.net, the ISP in question. I DO know the difference between an ISP and a DNS, thank you very much, the whole point of the article in the first place was that the ISP and DNS record keeper in this case were the same company.
We're gonna try to initiate a registrar transfer, but OLM can reject the transfer, and I have an odd feeling they will.
Even though the domain name belongs to Dan, technical control over the domain seems to be overriding actual ownership.
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
Word of mouth is all very well, but somehow Network Solutions still seem to be in business don't they?
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
1) I provide a small number of resold websites for clients--in other words, I don't want to host sites for the general public. Using the registrar provided by the people I lease the space from has been a problem from the outset. I can register my end-user as the owner-of record for a domain name, but the people upstream from me are the only ones who can alter the record. Thank God they're honest, but accidents (mostly delays) have occurred.
2) If I had it to do over again, I'd provide this as a service for my users but would find some third-party, reputable entity to handle the registrations. The password could be shared between the user and myself.
3) It is possible to wrest these away from unscrupulous hosting providers as well as "web services" people who just evaporate. It involves finding the registrar and establishing that the site is yours. They'll want any proof you can provide including company letterhead, copy of your driver's license, and a great deal of other paperwork. But it can be done. I've had two successful interactions of this nature, one with Verisign (cough!), one with somebody else. Both were on behalf of clients. Both took many days to complete, hours on the telephone, and both e-mail and snail mail.
That "ISP" in the subject line is a little misleading. It doesn't always have to be your ISP, though I suppose it could be.
Anne
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
Hello, My name is Chris, Sales Manager at olm.net. I am not quite sure what you are refering to. You are free to move your domain to another host at any time. You have an account with our service, that you are free to log into, and make any changes to the DNS you wish. The whois info lists the information that is input to the the orderform by the customer. It is automatic, we do not change anything on that record. Please call us toll free at 800-741-6813 and ask for the Nameregistrars department. We will help you make the changes you need to repoint the domain's DNS. Regards, Chris
We're gonna try to initiate a registrar transfer, but OLM can reject the transfer, and I have an odd feeling they will.
Years ago I transferred a domain in which I was listed as the registrant and admin but the registrar was the tech contact. An email was sent to me and to my registrar since those were the contacts on the domain. I approved the transfer and the registrar refused it but since I was listed as the registrant the transfer went through, so I don't think there's anything they can do to prevent you from transferring it.
Please forgive me, as my opinion on this matter is bias, as I am the sponsoring registrar of this domain. Here are some useful links that will help to answer many questions that you may have about any domain under the Core Umbrella: Whois lookup: http://allwhois.com/ ( It has a annoying pop up, but it will do the job.) This link will give you a status on domains under internic. http://reports.internic.net/cgi/whois? In this case: Domain Name: BIGBOYDRUMS.COM Registrar: CORE INTERNET COUNCIL OF REGISTRARS Whois Server: whois.corenic.net Referral URL: http://www.corenic.net Name Server: NS1.WORLDAXXS.NET Name Server: NS2.WORLDAXXS.NET Status: ACTIVE Updated Date: 16-jan-2003 Creation Date: 16-jan-2003 Expiration Date: 16-jan-2004 Please notice that the status is active and the last update is 01/16/2003. If we ( the sponsoring registrar ) were to have locked this domain the status would reflect that and the last update date would have changed. Since the update date matches the creation date this domain has never been touched since it was created. If this domain was attempted to be transferred, then the gaining registrar would have a record of that request. They would also have a record of the losing registrar denying the request. No such record exist in this case, as it was never made. It's unfortunate that I have address your concerns here, since our business model was design and built around the fact that we foster lasting, growing relationship with our clients. All this post accomplished was to take time away from my clients who are in need of legitimate DNS updates. If Daniel Cervantes exists please call me 203-445-7760 and lets resolve your DNS, transferring, and overall registration needs. I will be happy to transfer you to a registrar that will address your concerns as courteously and as expeditiously as ours.