Mars Sundials - True Colors, Ambiguous Hours

An anonymous reader writes "NASA's Astrobiology Magazine today has an interview with Bill Nye, the Science Guy, who spearheaded the first interplanetary sundial, which will land on Mars in early January. The Cornell sundial inscription reads "Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages [including ancient Sumerian and Mayan], and was selected over such historical mottos as one French sundial that reads: "Every hour injures; the last one kills". The sundials were an inspired transformation of a needed [mainly orange-pink] color wheel to calibrate the Mars' panoramic cameras to give true Martian colors, but so resembled the shadow-casting time pieces, that Nye took it over to become an internet-updated interplanetary dial." Read on for some more. Our reader continues: "There are no conventional hour lines at all on these dials, because unlike regular sundials, they are on moving platforms. Nye says: 'Before people figured this out back in the first era of Mars probes (also the first Disco Era) the images from the Viking spacecraft were too pink or orange. Those "over-pink" images still show up in Mars science fiction movies and Mars-themed posters and restaurant walls. One of the charming challenges is roughly, "What is an hour on Mars?" Is it a "Mour?" Is it a "quadraduodeci-sol," a twenty fourth of a sol, a Mars day? ' The interview recounts the Apollo 12 controversy over whether one of the first lunar probes, Surveyor, returned viable contaminants to Earth."

Comments

See Jane run, run Jane run.

[malakai]

At some future point, when human existence is long forgotten, some entity will find this plaque long since buried in the martian dust, and think to themselves "My god, what shitty artist they were".

Seriously, i'm not a big fan of UI design, what being a programmer and all, but come on, shell out five grand for something better than squiggly "see jane run" pictures of people. Or hell, at least use better stick figures. I'm sure the whole development team has access to MS products and can grab the annoying clip-art stick figures we see in every fookin slide at a conference. I swear if I see another image of a stick figure guy scratching his head on the slide entitiled "Any Questions?" I'm going to start shooting people...

Re:See Jane run, run Jane run.

[Have Blue]

The images aren't meant to be realistic, they're meant to be representational. The images mean that humans have a torso, a smaller head, and 4 limbs in upper and lower pairs. Remember that these plaques may be seen by entities with no concept of shading, muscles, or any other style of art that we either innately comprehend due to our brain's "greedy" pattern recognition or have learned to accept as part of our years of seeing images. Every single element of the drawing must have a precise and unique meaning.

Although, the plaques carried by Voyager and Pioneer used more realistic artwork.

Re:See Jane run, run Jane run.

[nacturation]

The images aren't meant to be realistic, they're meant to be representational. The images mean that humans have a torso, a smaller head, and 4 limbs in upper and lower pairs. Remember that these plaques may be seen by entities with no concept of shading, muscles, or any other style of art that we either innately comprehend due to our brain's "greedy" pattern recognition or have learned to accept as part of our years of seeing images. Every single element of the drawing must have a precise and unique meaning.

So some future entity will think that all the creatures depicted in those crude drawings must be a lifeform that exists solely by being chained together at the arms. There's not one example of a human existing on its own. Just look at it again. Every depiction of a human is done through joining of two or more people at the hands. They would think we're some kind of chained lifeform.

Granted, an alien being may not have any concept of shading, muscles, etc. but neither did the six year old who drew those pictures. If the goal is to have every single element stand on its own and be uniquely defined, surely they could come up with something non-stick figure. Even a simple silhouette would be orders of magnitude better. And your argument falls apart anyway. In the first image strip, the people on the left have torsos. The people on the right have no torsos. One person on the right has a triangular hip, whereas nobody else in that strip has a triangular hip. How are they to know a triangular lower part means a skirt and, hence, the stick figure must therefore be the child-bearing member of the species? And look at the bottom image. There's not even a remotely accurate sense of scale. The first person is a tiny neckless balloon on top of a large balloon, out of which huge disproportionate sticks protrude. On the right of that bottom image strip, there's another triangle hip person joined to a big fat person where the triangle represents the torso and hip and most of the legs too, leaving only stubby feet. And god only knows what the hell is dangling from the fat triangle's arms. Is that supposed to be a purse? A dog?

Precise and unique meaning, my ass!

Re:See Jane run, run Jane run.

[pyrrhonist]

Look at it again. Man on bottom left is by himself.

That's the token Slashdot reader.

The obvious question is?

[dnotj]

What time is it on Mars?

Re:The obvious question is?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/mars24/

all that trouble....

[KiwiEngineer]

And they could have used a colour chart from a paint store with a digital watch taped to the side for the same effect.

Occam's (spelling?) razor, people. Go for the simplest solution.

Re:all that trouble....

[stratjakt]

a sundial is many times less complex than a digital watch.

You think you're 20 dollar "water resistant" timex can survive a trip to the red planet?

Re:all that trouble....

[red floyd]

That's an urban legend, dude.

That's a relief...

[Black Parrot]

> The Cornell sundial inscription reads "Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages [including ancient Sumerian and Mayan]

So when that Sumerian spaceship finally reaches Mars, they'll feel at home and know what time it is.

Re:Such a waste of money

[agent dero]

This leads to a lot of other problems,

Mars! Brought to you by Microsoft

Hailey's Comet! Sponsored for the next 76 years by AOL Time Warner

All viable space science! Funded by SCO

Alright, maybe not that last one, but you get the point

Re:Such a waste of money

[the_other_one]

I suggest that you file a patent application with the USPTO for the sundial.
They will undoubtably grant you said patent after a summary verification of your email address.
You will then be able to sue NASA for enough money to start your own private market space exploration program.

Bill Nye was like a hero to me...

[ejito]

Then they changed his time slot so it was during school hours. I guess they thought unemployed people would enjoy the show more than gradeschoolers. For a latchkey kid like me, it was shows put on by people like Bill that got me interested in science, along with my science inclined uncle.

As for the sundial, I'm not exactly wetting myself, but it's not as stupid as other posters are making it out to be. If you're gonna do something trivial like color correction, you might as well spice it up and do it nerd style.

Why?

[quantaman]

"Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages [including ancient Sumerian and Mayan], and was selected over such historical mottos as one French sundial that reads: "Every hour injures; the last one kills".

I can't imagine why, I mean that second motto is just such an optemistic and inspirational message to send to another world! I mean just repeat it to yourself,"Every hour injures; the last one kills," don't you feel better already?!

Re:Why?

[critter_hunter]

The actual saying is "Omnis vulnerat et ultima necat" and is, obviously, latin. "Chacune blesse, la derniere tue", or "Chaque heure blesse, la derniere tue" are but adaptations.

Not really sure why they didn't go with the latin, at least *somewhere* on the sundial - I think the saying has been put on sundials since the Antiquity...

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, c'mon now, look who it's from - this was the best choice. The French only submitted two for consideration. The other one said "We surrender..."

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Check yer facts

[Wonko42]

The Cornell sundial inscription reads "Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages

Actually, according to the article (there's even a picture where this is visible), the inscription "Two Worlds, One Sun" is in English only, and the word "Mars" is in 17 languages.

Interesting Rover data

[-tji]

Following a few links from the mission site, I found the answer to a question I had about the communications capabilities of the rovers.

They can communicate directly back to Earth at a slow speed ( 3,500 to 12,000 bits/sec ) or they can communicate via the Mars orbiting spacecraft (Odyssey or Mars Global Surveyor) at a rate of 128,000 bits/sec. The orbiters are only 250 miles from the planet surface.

Unfortunately, there was no information about protocols, encoding, or error correction schemes..

Some good info is here: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mer/mission/communication s.html

Re:Interesting Rover data

[NanoGator]

"Unfortunately, there was no information about protocols, encoding, or error correction schemes.."

They're going to use 802.11g with the Hubble Scope in place of the Pringles can.

Re:Interesting Rover data

[QuantumFTL]

Unfortunately, there was no information about protocols, encoding, or error correction schemes..

Well, I happen to work on MER as a software engineer, and I was consulted for an article on the Athena web site (athena.cornell.edu) on the communications system, but I'm certainly no expert.

The X-Band system uses Binary Phase Shift Keying, which is a lot like the modulation used in QPSK (Used sometimes to send data upstream over cable as it is more resistant to noise) and 64QAM (Used to send data downstream over cable, as it is more efficient and noise is not an issue).

There's a ton of papers out there on this sort of stuff... if you wish to get nitty-gritty with dsn, I reccommend some of the articles on this page

There's obviously a lot more to it... I know DSN uses MASERS for certain things, but not sure about this mission. To see how odyssey uses the DSN, read this pdf.

And if you wonder exactly what I do, check out this article.l

Cheers, Justin

Mars' true colors

[moltar77]

I'm more excited about the use of these dials for photocalibration. Mars may or may not have a blue sky, but at least we can know for sure with these things on their way.

Well, they could...

[Kazuko]

Just throw humans on there. I mean, all these rovers and probes, they could turn to research to enable humans to travel to mars, i.e. supplies storage/possible cold(cryo) sleep/faster propulsion, etc; There are enabling technologies out there and with physics horizons being redefined every day, there's no reason to say "Look. We've got pictures, we've got soil tests, we've got maps, we have a whole lot of stuff, but let's get on with it and focus on putting humans on Mars." Apparently it has some sort of thin atmosphere, it just needs to be temerature regulated. Well, with some sort of habitat that can withstand the Martian weather and control internal climate, there's no limit to the utility of it. It could be the first base humanity establishes on another planet.

Re:Well, they could...

[WegianWarrior]

Just throw humans on there.
Yes, in theory, we could have done that in the seventies (by 'we', read NASA and the american taxpayers). The technology needed for a "there and back again" style of mission isn't substancially different from what you need to go to the moon, if you don't mind hanging around with a couple of buddies for, oh, around three years. In fact, NASA did play with the idea of a Mars flyby or landing using Appolo hardware.

...to enable humans to travel to mars...
We already have that technology. Once we managed to stagger up off earths gravitywell - and we did that by going to the moon - we had the tech needed to go anywhere. But again, not fast.

...faster propulsion...
I suppose you mean 'propulsion allowing a higher terminal speed'. Todays chemical rockets are basicly 'burn, then coast'. You accelerate a lot for a while, then glide towards the target. A ion-engine or a nucular rocket will let you accelerate less but for a much longer time, meaning you'll get a higher terminal velocity. The providial Holy Grail for interplanitary missions would be an engine which would let you accelerate forever. Just think about it; you blast off into orbit, then turns on the flightengine. That gently accelerates you to one G.. and keeps that accelatation all the time. Halfway to the target, you simply turns around and deacceleate with one G, leaving you with zero relative speed as you enter orbit around Mars (or wherever you want to go). The speeds you'll reach are way higher than any chemical rocket can provide, the flighttime shortens and we don't have to worry about the determinal effects of living in zero G for years on end. I havn't got my notes and calculator here right now, but maybe someone could punch up some numbers on this?

...possible cold(cryo) sleep...
With the right sort of propulsion (see above), there is no need to bother with things we probaly wont master for centuries anyway.

It could be the first base humanity establishes on another planet.
Maybe - but it probaly wont be the first base humans establish on another heavenly body.

Hilaire Belloc's quote on sundials

[alanw]

I am a sundial
and I make a botch
of what is done far
better by a watch!

Re:Hilaire Belloc's quote on sundials

[Guppy06]

"better by a watch!"

Sundials tend not to gain/lose up to 30 seconds a month like your average cheap quartz crystal watch does (unless, of course, the sundial is on a moving platform). Short of a cesium clock, if you want something that approaches that kind of accuracy, you want a decent marine chronometer, which is probably heavier (ie. more expensive to put into space) than a sundial. And even if you did, who's going to wind it?

Re:Hilaire Belloc's quote on sundials

[alanw]

Here are two very pretty photographs of the analemma - composite photographs of the sun taken at the same time and place every few days for a year, and a simulated martian analemma

Re:Occam's Razor

[GooberToo]

BTW, the simpler design of the Kalashnikov AK-47 rifle was what enabled the Vietcong to prevail over American soldiers equipped with the Stone M-16, which was more advanced.

That's another myth. It was bad politics, plain and simple, that allowed the Vietcong to prevail. You try fighting a war where you can't bomb their factories, not allowed to destroy their air bases, weapon depots, or radar stations. You try winning a war where you can be jailed for actually attempting to win. You try winning a war were most of the S. Vietnam officials were corrupt and giving bad intelligence; the US knew full well this was the case but still continued to heavily use it. Toss in non-professional soldiers and it couldn't of been won with God's own hand. All that, without even talking about the tactics that the Vietcong used.

Once the bullets were changed back to their proper powder, and cleaning kits were finally issued, the m16 proved it self. Likewise, before it was officially issued and cleaning kits were made available and proper ammo was being used, it was in high demand by special forces and other elite units on the ground for "instruction" and "training". The reason being, it was fairly accurate even to extreme ranges (for open sights), light, and they could carry a lot more ammo.

The AK, on the other hand, could be tossed in the mud or in a rice field, let rust, kicked open, and be ready to fire in combat. It's accuracy at medium to long+ ranges *significantly* suffers because of this. This generally wasn't a problem for the Vietcong because combat was generally was short and hand-to-hand ranges.

Re:Hilaire Belloc's other quote on sundials

[panurge]

Based on the French quote they didn't use:

Here in a secret place forgotten, I
Mark the tremendous process of the sky.
So may your inmost soul, forgotten mark
The dawn, the noon, the coming of the dark.

Done the math for you...

[Otto]

I suppose you mean 'propulsion allowing a higher terminal speed'. Todays chemical rockets are basicly 'burn, then coast'. You accelerate a lot for a while, then glide towards the target. A ion-engine or a nucular rocket will let you accelerate less but for a much longer time, meaning you'll get a higher terminal velocity. The providial Holy Grail for interplanitary missions would be an engine which would let you accelerate forever. Just think about it; you blast off into orbit, then turns on the flightengine. That gently accelerates you to one G.. and keeps that accelatation all the time. Halfway to the target, you simply turns around and deacceleate with one G, leaving you with zero relative speed as you enter orbit around Mars (or wherever you want to go). The speeds you'll reach are way higher than any chemical rocket can provide, the flighttime shortens and we don't have to worry about the determinal effects of living in zero G for years on end. I havn't got my notes and calculator here right now, but maybe someone could punch up some numbers on this?

This is an easy one.. Okay, Mars was at it's closest a few months ago, right? A quick google tells me that it was 55.76 million kilometers away at the time.

So, since we're accelerating to there and then slowing down halfway, basically we divide the problem into two parts. How long will it take to get halfway there? Then we simply double it to get the reverse, how long it'll take to slow down.

-Half of 55,760,000,000 meters is 27,880,000,000 meters.
-One G is 9.8 m/s^2

Distance traveled = .5 * acceleration * time^2
27,880,000,000 = .5 * 9.8 * time^2

Solve for time, and you get 75430.73589... seconds. But that's only halfway to Mars, so double it to get the slowdown part too and you have 150861.4717... seconds. Divide by 60 for minutes, divide by 60 for hours, and you come up with roughly 41 hours, or about a 1 and 3/4 days total.

So yeah, if you had all the delta V you could handle, you could be there in under a couple days.

Too bad we don't have that.

Trivia: Where did he get "Science Guy" Title?

[sonnik]

If I recall, Bill Nye was a character on a Seattle-based comedy show called "Almost Live". He's actually educated, but the whole "Science Guy" character came from a comedy show. (And the kid's show started there.) And now he's heading up projects like this???

That was about 15 years ago, so maybe people who remember will remember more clearly and call me an idiot. Other Slashdot readers will probably call me an idiot regardless...

Bill Nye, The Science Guy

[pangu]

Can anyone even say Bill Nye, without feeling a compulsion to add "The Science Guy"?

Re:Such a waste of money

[RobinH]

While I'm all for extra-planetary studies, I don't believe it should be funded by taxpayer dollars. I know this won't make me popular with the Slashdot crowd, but I think most NASA missions are overpriced boondoggles. I would much rather see things like this done via the private market. This would free up money for more important things, like fighting terrorism and tax relief to a beleagured public.

I hate to break it to you, but if you leave it to businesses to fund space research, then the entire population of Mars is going to be Chinese. Not that I really mind that, but I figured that, being an American, you might.