Slashdot Mirror
How Effective is Online Dispute Resolution?
An anonymous reader asks: "I recently had a website stolen from my ownership and removed from my hosting company. The hosting companies all say that everything looked legitimate to them, but I know it isn't and I can prove it. ICANN, WIPO and other dispute resolution services are expensive and I do not have the money to pursue. What alternatives are there as far as online dispute resolutions and other forms of mediation? I have talked to a computer lawyer and they were of no help because they were not familiar with this situation either. What methods of dispute resolution (auctions, domain names, etc.) have others at Slashdot used? How effective are they?"
Reasonable fees and fast resolution service. Success guaranteed, although most of the work is really done offline.
I'm at the moment halfway through lawschool, and one thing I have learned is this: getting justice done is expensive.
To have knowledgable unbiased people say anything useful, they have to become familiar with the case. This costs a lot of time, thus money. Besides that, it costs you a lot of time.
So, if you think dispute resolution is more expensive than your loss, don't take that route, but take your loss. Learn from your experience.
Next time select a trustworthy hosting provider. Make sure you have a clause in your contract that prevents this kind of problems.
the pun is mightier than the sword
Rarely, if ever, has there been any trouble getting the Russian mafia to take care of business in a quick and efficient manner. And unlike the Chinese and Italian boobs who think they own you after *you* hired *them*, the Russian mafia goes about its merry way after the job is done and fees are paid in full.
Highly recommended, especially over the alternatives.
I would see what just writing a letter to them, asking what they plan to do to rectify their mistake brings.
Then start looking into suing them. They helped another person steal your property. It doesn't really matter that they thought they were being helpful. I might be inclined to file a police report. It's new, you read slashdot, experiment. I'd find out as much as I could about this area of law, and try to sue them in my jurisdiction in small claims. I'd write my representatives at every level, my state attorny general, and maybe the occasional newspaper. Even bring it before a city counsel, they pass all kinds of crazy crap from time to time. There's no reason they couldn't have an irrational ordinance added to the books which might be used to lend a quixotic weight to your cause.
Even if you don't get your way, you might make their lives a little more miserable.
But since they stole your domain, it should be reasonably easy to track down who they are. If they move it to another registrar, file a police report charging them with recieving stolen goods (if an mp3 or a program is a good, a domain is too). Get in their face too.
I bet for a few bucks in stamps, a ream of paper, and free time, you can cause a lot of trouble. Spread the anger around, don't hog it all for yourself.
Who knows what you'd learn and other opportunities would avail themselves as you pursue another expertise.
Oh and those broadbandreports people would probably be a hell of a lot more useful than goobers like me.
if you aren't willing to go the suing route(or asking for criminal investigation, or if you even know who did it but know that he/she is too far away for you to have any real possibilities for a court or other resolution) move it back to you the same way it was moved from you.
i know, it's not a real solution and possible illegal, so you might want to try the other options before trying.
(oh yeah and if you can spot an error in the hosting companys behauvior, skipping necessary checks & etc, you could try to get some compensation from them, or just sue them in your local equivalent of small claims)
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
The person needs to contact the registrar which the domain name was registered through to see what the status of the domain is...
.com zone...plus there's an additional redemption period giving one even more time; at a hefty price.
... perhaps it was actually in the name of the webhosting company or other entity which has since redirected the domain elsewhere.
If the domain was registered for them by their webhost, then they need to contact them again and ask what domain name registrar(s) they use.
Once they have contacted the proper registrar (there are about 100 of them to choose from, plus zillions of resellers), they'll likely be a lot closer to know what happened.
Another important detail is was the domain name active (website working) and then suddenly went "dead", etc or was it the domain one that was "forgotten" about for awhile?
Some possibilities...
* Either one got control of the registrar account for the domain or they tricked their registrar in releasing it and transferring it to another registrar and took control over it that way.
* The domain name could have expired - though typically there's a window of time where the domain doesn't resolve before actually being deleted...so for an active website, it's unlikely for this to occur since one usually has time to renew it even if it's been removed from the
* Domain was never registered to the person to begin with
* Whois information and/or other details were incorrect and someone filed a complaint about it to ICANN. The window of time before deletion in such instances can be much shorter and I'm not sure the redemption period applies or not...anyone know? This is really a "catch-22"...for if one's Whois information is wrong, how can they be contacted to correct it.
* UDRP was filed...assuming the person's Whois information was correct (reiterates again why updated Whois info is so important!), they should have received some emails and I believe at least one notice by regular Post. They can quickly determine if their name was involved a UDRP action by search the UDRP section at ICANN's website. On an aside, if one loses a UDRP, they can then attempt to file suit in Federal court...some folks have successfully done that.
If the domain name was lost via UDRP or deleted, there's likely little to nothing they can realistically do to recover it.
However, if the domain name was "stolen", they need to first build a timeline...
1. What date did they register it?
2. Who did they register it through?
3. How long was it registered for...1 year, 2 years, more? (2 years is no longer the default - 1 year is very common now)
4. Did they change registrars and/or hosting in that time...if so, on what dates? -and for what reasons?
5. When did they discover the domain name was no longer under their control?
If someone simply gained control of the domain name account *at the registrar*, then it's simple matter of contacting the registrar and having change the information back to the correct account holder.
If someone transferred the domain name out to another registrar and then took control of the domain, then it gets a bit more complicated...they'll have to contact both their original registrar as well as the registrar that it was transferred to...some registrars go out of their way to assist other registrars with such problems, while others such as Network Solutions (recently sold by VeriSign, so maybe they'll get better) generally don't give a damn and stonewall.
If the domain name is listed as being owned by their webhosting company instead of them (sounds from the story this is NOT the case, but mention this possibility since it's a common problem), then they should contact their webhosting company and have the Registrant field updated so it's in their name and not that of their webhosting company - one often has to negotiate here and make it worth the webhosting companies time to do this...
ok, ok, i know it's out of topic, trolling and blah, but if you know goatse.cx (and who doesnt on /.), the pumkin is a must see...
-- search the web
A "computer lawyer"? Does that look something like:
Hello! It looks like you're trying to stake a patent claim! Would you like me to:
Kidding aside, is that actual specialty of law now?
--
$tar -xvf
While actually pursuing legal action against them is expensive, just having a lawyer write them a letter asking to open channels of communication will normally scare them into submission. You know legal action is expensive, and they know that too, and if they know they'll loose they'll probably back off if they think you're willing to put up the cash.
Go down to your local police station and file a police report saying that your electronic busniess name and address that you were paying X amount per Y time were stolen from you. Do a look up on the current "owner." Present all your information to your local police and you should at least be able to get a misd. theft on the individual.
I don't know if it would work, but it is worth a shot. I know my local police would atleast look into it.
That's one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. Looks like Tux might have competition this year for my pumpkin.
Would using an offshore registrar require them to sue you in the country that you registered in?
If a registrar in Europe/Russia/Mongolia got a letter from a US company claiming that we were violating a US (not the country of the registrar) trademark would they comply?
+5 HOLY SHIT!
You would actually consider doing all this stuff? Sure, they sound reasonable and maybe the "proper" thing to do, but who the hell is actually going to go through with all this crap?
Tell me you've actually wrote your "representatives at every level" and "maybe the occasional newspaper" over an issue that no one really cares about and I will be very surprised.
I've never had to. I've written letters to companies to express my dissatisfaction, or find information. Those have always recieved prompt responses.
The trick is to make it some sort of game. As I mentioned, or at least implied, it need not be an expensive proposition beyond the time he chooses to invest. The process itself, even if he fails, bringing other rewards of its own which are not readily appearent.
As for writing my representatives at every level. I would write essentially three super-letters. One for the law enforcement people like the police. One for more bureaucratic law enforcement, business practices, trade and communications people (attorney general, BBB, other random government fuctionaries as they reveal themselves or strike my fancy). One for legislative representatives. I might be so bold, and clever as to customize the first, and perhaps last paragraphs to each of the individuals. Like one of those gay Thomas Kinkade paintings. A letter to the editorial page of a newspaper, well that's one letter, and suitable for every publication. Or so Don Lapre would have us believe.
The police reports, well who knows what kind of hassle that might be, probably not much but, I can't say for sure.
Certainly, filing a suit in small claims court would be much more of a pain that writting the occasional batch of brief letters.
That said, it is an issue people care about. Hence its, perhaps conspicious, abscense from slashdot's considerable reject pile. It's not like these things haven't made the news. People care, and so does the self-described victim in this particular instance. But if they don't care enough to *do* anything, well, maybe you're right after all. I suppose it might be nice if I lived in a world that existed for my convience, where Katie Price and Jessica Biel would show up to my house, unannounced, with a large jet city meatball pizza with extra cheese, a pint of limited edition of Bailey's Irish Cream icecream, and "took turns," but I find myself constrained by a less fullfilling reality. The sad truth is, like many people who don't find themselves the subject of E! network documentaries, or walk the corridors of power, if I want something done, I actually have to try to do something.
The fact of the matter is, if he desires a little justice, it's there for the taking, but he's going to have to reach for it, and not necessarily with his billfold on the end of a stick. I simply suggest one starting point that preceeds spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars, and doesn't involve him running afoul of any laws by stealing his domain back. In fact, my starting point, as I recall, is a letter to the company that he was dealing with. One letter, one stamp, one hour (if that).
There are people, perhaps not unlike yourself, that even pay other people to write these sorts of letters for them! But there are still lots of people writing letters, you yourself could be one them and find out more about them, I'm quite sure, by writting a letter to one of your representatives to inqure about how many letter's like yours they deal with in a year. The most dreaded job of many government empolyees is responding to "a congressional" which itself was prompted by a letter from a person who's existance you doubt. Any person might find out their voice carries far and wide, but only if they decide to speak up.
I don't know why people don't write letters any more. Well I do, but they should still have some respect for what they're giving up.
:)
You should check out these books. They're pretty funny, but they also provide an unexpected insight.
From the people who brought you ebay Lazlo Toth and Ted L. Nancy nom de plumm for this man.
A lot of this has to do with expectation. And if one sets out expecting nothing, they shouldn't be too shocked if that's what they end up with.
His worst case scenerio, after all, might be a book deal.
One potentialy nasty solution is to post the name of the ISP, registrar, and the parties involved. If there is enough individuals whom do business with them transfer to someone else with this as a stated cause, that might get their attention...
It would also be obnoxious to have "interested" slashdoters asking them what gives. Na, that's a little over the top...