'Black Box' Readings Help Convict Montreal Driver

the man writes "From CBC News, Here's one that is going to get a lot of attention in the coming years. Quebec police won a dangerous-driving conviction Friday using evidence from the 'black box' in the car, a first in the province. Turns out that not many people know of these things. Time to start working on the mod for my Toyota."

Comments

Ok before everyone goes bezerk

[unixwin]

Before everyone starts pulling their hair apart, running into their garages and tear their car to pieces please read what this blackbox does / can do... QUOTE

The device is known as an event data recorder (EDR), or simply a "black box," because it serves a similar function to a flight data recorder in an aircraft. The information the black boxes record includes: the car's speed; the engine's speed; whether the brakes are applied; the position of the gas pedal. It also records other information, such as whether the driver was wearing a seatbelt and the force of the collision. Because the memory of the black box is limited, it only retains this information for a few seconds. After a collision, the black box contains a record of what was happening in the last seconds before the impact.

Re:Ok before everyone goes bezerk

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it does not record any of those things. Instead, it records the sensor reading. For example, if you engage the seatbelt behind your back and under your thighs, the sensor will still say, "seatbelt on." For a more important example, if you lose traction just before impact then the four wheel rpms can be much more or less than the corresponding vehicle speed. And of course the sensors are highly accurate, and frequently calibrated...NOT.

This is good

[JFMulder]

I've heard about the case a few months ago, since I live in Montreal. They said that these little devices recorded only speeds and such. No audio is involved of course. What is interresting is that it doesn't record for a long time. It essentially has a buffer of about 5 or 10 seconds. When the car body registers a hit, it stops registering speeds, so it doesn't overwrite the speed before the impact. This way, police officers can't use these as a way to prove someone was going over the limit when they were chasing someone, but it's still usefull in car crashes.

I wonder what happens though if I have an accident once with my car, and then have it repaired. Is the box reset by the car repairman?

So what

[Andorion]

These things will only be used in two cases:

1) Driver kills or seriously injurs someone, and claims innocence - the box will tell the truth, and if they're guilty of the crime, they SHOULD be found out and punished.

2) The driver is dead, in which case the box will tell his story for him - and tell it accurately.

This thing won't be used for your common speeding violation... it's been in cars for a long while, it serves it's purpose, and there's no reason to be up in arms over it.

~Berj

Sure

[cubicledrone]

In California, they're about to install sensors to detect if cars are "high emitters" in real time. If the car has high emissions, a picture of the license plate is taken, and the car is scheduled for another tax assessm^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H smog check.

Eventually, the car will have to be "activated" by a central computer system every day. If emissions are too high, the car just won't start, requiring a $150 tow charge to have it checked ($50) and repaired ($850) and then re-registered ($700) and an insurance premium paid ($385).

time to start educating idiots.

[Lumpy]

First these "black boxes" are nothing more than a small amount of flash memory that is written to when the airbag system is activated. if your car has airbags, then YOU HAVE THE RECORDER. [Add ominous evil soundtrack here]

now, they record nothing unless the airbags are deployed. when they do they record vital data that the airbag system manufacturers need to continue to make airbag systems safer and save more lives, it's just that lawyers got wind of this and decided to start having the data used in court.

The fun part is that the insurance companies started the trend. and you know what?? you crash your car, the insurance company can instantly get ownership of the car and data by simply "totaling it out" so they will now gladly give the data freely to the courts.

you want an answer? A- remove the airbags and trigger sensors from your car... or B- drive like a sane person.

those are your two choices..pick one.

Re:time to start educating idiots.

[HBI]

The fun part is that the insurance companies started the trend. and you know what?? you crash your car, the insurance company can instantly get ownership of the car and data by simply "totaling it out" so they will now gladly give the data freely to the courts.

This only applies if you have collision or comprehensive coverage. That means _your_ insurance company, in other words. They can total the car and get the title that way. Generally this is done because of the expectation of 'hidden damage' which would cause the vehicle to cost more to repair than the fair value. (whether you consider the NADA/Red Book/CCC values to be fair is another question entirely - they are generally not that far off)

If it is a liability 'total', ie, by the other driver's company, then you accept the money but they do not (in most cases) take possession of the vehicle unless you want them to. Moreover you do not even have to accept the settlement if you don't want to.

Please note that your insurance company owes you a vigorous defense, and can't be turning information over to the court that would compromise that.

Educate yourself about insurance. You have incorrect notions.

Re:Black box becoming standard?

[PPGMD]

Planes have black boxes to record aircraft status moments because in some cases the cause is so minor it would be immpossible to tell what cause it without the time line from the Flight Data Recorder.

FUD Alert

[jfmiller]

from the article:


"The prospect that we're all under constant scrutiny has social effects and legal effects that we haven't even contemplated," said Stephen Keating of the Privacy Foundation at the University of Denver.

This is just plain wrong. The "black box" can only be used if/when the airbag deploys. Under any other circumstances it discards all information every 2 seconds. Even if it was to be removed from a parked car it would only tell the snoop that the car was stopped before it was shut off.

Just to make sure everbody get the point:
Monitering is not constant but only availible after an airbag deploying crash.

JFMILLER

not a "Black Box"

[Gray Elf]

Before anyone gets there knickers in a bunch. These "Black Box"'s have been around for years. I know, i work for a car dealership in MD. And there was an article here about a year ago when everyone "first" heard about it. These computers are responsible for controlling all (if not most) of the electronic equipment in your car. They have been doing this since at least 1998 or 99. Most of your new cars have one in them. They record, on average, about the last 3-5 seconds of data for a technician to look at when you car is acting funny. The data is retrieved using a handheld device called a tech-2. At least that is the device we use here.

Now, weather or not this data should be used to convict a reckless driver, I'll leave that up to the law makers and public opinion. But big brother is not watching. They are not there to catch you doing something wrong.

Re:Black box becoming standard?

[PPGMD]

Accidents in cars are cause by driver carelessness that can be easily be determined by a police investigation, and complemented by witnesses.

Aircraft accidents are almost always just the single aircraft involved, the witnesses/passengers die, and the aircraft breaks up on it's way to the ground.

So no I really don't see much reason to have a black box except are a prelude to having them networked, in the US the pilot unions had a shit fit about having the FDR reviewed are each flight, but we drivers have no such protection.

Boat motors as well

[dammy]

Boat motors have had these for years now and they (as well as GPS systems) HAVE been submitted as evidence in fatal boat accidents.

Dammy

EDR FAQ

[dbCooper0]

Harris Technical Services have a FAQ that should clarify some of the issues raised here.

Although I suppose their vehicle list is not comprehensive, it's an interesting source of info.

Re:131km/h = 81.4 MPH

[Karellen !-P]

Worst this is that the 131 km/h was just before impact. The previous 2 seconds of data indicated that the moron lifted his foot off the gas and slowed down from 154 km/h. Data from the black box was necessary since there were no eyewitness and no skid marks.

Re:Black box becoming standard?

[PPGMD]

ATC is not real time. Data recorders at ATC facilties record once a second and rely on MODE C data fed to ATC by the transponder of the aircraft (some of which have been shown to malfunction).

While FDR information is recorded much more often and directly from the system (details of which can be checked in Part 121 of the FARs, which is beyond the topic if this converstation).

In my state almost every accident must have a police report, and in almost every case in rear-end accidents, the person behind is at fault.

Personally I am more worried about the aspect of these being linked to police computers, I see in some states that it might be used to automaticlly issues tickets.

Re:well

[canajin56]

IIRC, the recording window is beteween 30 and 60 seconds, and it stops when you get in an accident (OR at least, any accident severe enough to make the airbag deploy)

Re:well

[siphoncolder]

Let me correct your ignorance: aren't you aware of how your AIR-BAGS WORK?

This is a point that I believe sorely needs to be addressed: the "black-box" you're all going on about is the sensor that helps the airbag decide whether to go off or not. If you tap a wall or another car in a parking lot, the airbag doesn't go off because the sensor knows that you're only travelling at 5mph. Conversely, if you slam into a car at 40mph, your airbags will fire.

Secondly, the sensor doesn't record more than 5 seconds worth of time. This allows the sensor to adjust to acceleration and braking modulation (since a car still has momentum despite the fact that your speedometer shows you've decelerated from 100mph to 60mph in a matter of seconds).

This is not an invasion of rights - this is gatherable evidence of what you've been doing in a car. It's not designed with the idea of spying on you, but the results of its operation are available.

And in the end, it protects the rights of the people that you're trying to pull a fast one on. It wasn't just a few weeks ago that a man was charged up here in Canada based on airbag information. He slammed into a car at 110mph, and tried to tell the cops that he was doing 50mph. Without airbag evidence, he would have got away with it.

I don't see any plausible reason why this should be outlawed, since it doesn't come into play until you get into an accident. At that point, you SHOULD have to pay the consequences of your actions. Especially when you're goofing off on the road.

Believe me, though - I'll be ticked when they put sensors in cars that report to the police every time you're caught speeding (which is dubious in and of itself) - there are plenty of good reasons for speeding sometimes (overtaking, getting out of/away from a dangerous situation beyond your control, police escorts, emergency vehicles, etc.).

Diagnostic Energy Reserve Module vs Scope Creep

[Tangurena]

When I used to work at a division of GM, these modules were called diagnostic energy reserve modules. The point of them was partly to hold enough energy to detonate the airbags in the event of a collision (say, the front of the car gets cut off or destroyed before the airbag deploys. The other point behind them was to cover the asses of GM in the event that a collision occured and the passengers died. The data was supposed to be used to defend GM.

Well, now the scope creep comes in. Since the legal system found out what was being recorded, these are being used for other purposes.

Accuracy? When I worked at GM, they recorded the RPM of each wheel as well as acceleration. One wheel far faster than the rest? that means that wheel is spinning, or maybe 3 have locked up. It does not take a rocket scientist to determine which case. Maybe you ought to think about driving a little slower?