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Panther Eats FireWire 800 Drives

Posted by pudge on from the oooo-scary-data-loss dept.

the_webmaestro writes: "Apple has announced that Panther (Mac OS X 10.3) may cause corruption with external FireWire 800 drives (anything with an Oxford 922 chip). Fortunately for me (unlike the poor souls who've already had problems), I guess I'm glad I ordered a lowly a 250GB Firewire 400/USB2.0 Combo Drive..." maccw reports that Firewire 400 customers are also reporting problems, as detailed from this Wired story.

60 comments

  1. 2 for 2 by broken.data · · Score: 2, Funny

    Geez, did the guys from LG get a new job already?

    1. Re:2 for 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just FYI -- the Panther issue just ruins data, not the hardware. It's not clear where the problem is but it seems to affect a lot more chipsets than Apple is acknowledging right now.

  2. data corruption by mikeburke · · Score: 2, Funny

    That's why I always make sure all my data is available in punch-card format before upgrading.

    1. Re:data corruption by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      Punched cards delimit your data into 80 char chunks. You want to use paper tape.

      I saw a high speed paper tape punch at auction a few months ago. I probably should have bought it.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
  3. Sounds Familiar ... by Mad_Fred · · Score: 1

    Didn't someone mention something like this in that Ars Technica forums' discussion about the "automatic defragmentation" in Panther a few days back?

    Ah yeah, it's in there! Go to the discussion and search for Firewire. In short, the poster sees the automatic defragmentation very possibly being the root of the problem.

    1. Re:Sounds Familiar ... by Trillan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Riiight. Listen, there's no black magic in that defragmentation code. Look elsewhere for problems.

  4. Updates by dynayellow · · Score: 4, Informative

    According to this Apple page the problem is with the chipset.

    OWC has posted a firmware update for their drives, as has Wiebetech. It looks like the Wiebetech requires you to update the firmware in Jaguar, and then they don't recommend using it IN Jaguar afterwards... Sheesh.

    1. Re:Updates by pjcreath · · Score: 3, Informative

      Note that while OWC's firmware update has only been tested with their drives, other people in the forums have successfully used it to update other vendors' drives using the Oxford chipset.

      Their updater will also tell you which chipset (911 or 922) your drive has and which firmware it's running. Note that some FW400 drives use the affected Oxford 922 chipset rather than the 911.

      As of this writing, nobody's quite sure yet whether Oxford 911 (FW400) chipsets are also affected. Some evidence indicates that they are, Official Statements to the contrary.

    2. Re:Updates by gunnk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      THANK YOU!

      The parent post is much more informative that the story itself, which links to the Apple Special Message page while appearing to have no knowledge of the content on that page (i.e.: problem is a chipset bug, not a Panther bug).

      After the previous story in which Apple was said to be refusing to release security patches for Jaguar anymore (with no links to any actual Apple statement), it looks like any story that seems to paint Apple in a bad light gets no review at all. Come on -- we should be able to expect a LITTLE better editorial review of story postings than this!

      In this case the title of the story is misleading and sensational, while the content puts the blame on the wrong party. Apple is doing a good job of getting the word out to people that may have the faulty chipset so that they don't get burned by the problem. Making this sound like a failure by Apple is just plain wrong.

      --
      Life is short: void the warranty.
  5. Panther... by falcon5768 · · Score: 1
    making $300 paperweights, one harddrive at a time :-D

    Glad my iBook doesnt support FW 800... wait no I'm not glad, PLEASE SOMEONE BUY ME A POWERBOOK.

    --

    "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

    1. Re:Panther... by jbtule · · Score: 1

      Actually, owc claims this specific issue occurs specifically when you use a firewire 800 drive when attached to an older mac with a firewire 400 port.

      -Jay

    2. Re:Panther... by falcon5768 · · Score: 1
      well my question is why would you spend the money to buy a FW 800 when you can only support a FW400.

      Regardless apparently this problem has been known for a time accourding to a few websites so it kinda goes back to something I said in the Bill Gates support thread yesterday about people having to treat computers more like pets (and caring for them) vrs. a tool like a hammer

      --

      "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

  6. Pudge's 250 gig FW drive by Steve+Cowan · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Hey Pudge, that WD enclosure (linked in article) looks pretty sweet. Is the bridge chip Oxford 911? What kind of lights are those inside the case? (LED? Neon?) Can you turn them off if you want?

    1. Re:Pudge's 250 gig FW drive by geekwagon · · Score: 2, Informative
      Sorry to reply to an offtopic post, but.. I have the same drive (it was the cheapest 250GB option when I bought it, I didn't buy it for the lights) :)

      The lights are neon, there's a red one and a blue one. No, you can't turn them off. The bridge chip seems to be a custom jobby as it gets reported as a WDC Firewire400/USB2.0 in system_profiler. It might be an Oxford but WDC has custom written the ROM to hide that fact, if so.

    2. Re:Pudge's 250 gig FW drive by geekwagon · · Score: 1
      Seems my memory was a little faulty. It has two red neon tubes (one on either side) and then two blue led's (one on either side.)

      Everything else was right though. :)

  7. woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a 250 GB firewire drive? just curious. how much did it cost you?

  8. Panther eats Firewire. by Daleks · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a Godzilla-style movie.

  9. APS Pyro Firewire drive enclosures? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have three different models of Pyro Firewire enclosures (3-port transparent, 2-port transparent, and an opaque model). None of them support large (>137 GB, >128 GiB) drives.

    I haven't purchased Panther yet (or is it pronounced "Pan-there"?) but this does recall a problem I had running Final Cut Pro under Mac OS X 10.1.x. It had the nasty habit of destroying the partition tables of random Firewire drives on launch, presumably in its attempts to find and communicate with Firewire video devices. Upgrading to Jag-wire resolved the problem.

    AFAIK, Apple never acknowledged there was a problem with FCP and 10.1.

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    1. Re:APS Pyro Firewire drive enclosures? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Correction: that should be "ABS Pyro Firewire".

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  10. eh? by XdarkstarX · · Score: 1

    WTF, man?!?!

    --
    =^_^= P|-|33R |\/|3
  11. Jeez by uradu · · Score: 1

    If the guy bought it from the WD store for $429.99, that only confirms that Macophiles LOVE getting the retail shaft. This is a $230 drive plus $50 for a dual enclosure.

  12. can't install linux on a VIDEO CAMERA by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1, Funny

    this is a funny story. I have a new asus motherboard with firewire built in. I was running windows (just to test the hardware, mind you..) and then finally got around to trying to install linux on a separate hard disk.

    linux (redhat 6.x and latest gentoo) and even freebsd refused to install! huh? never saw THAT happen before.

    well, turns out that I had my firewire camera (not a real camera but a canopus firwire media bridge that looks like a FW camera) connected and all I can think of is that the funny asus bios considered THAT a 'disk' and when linux and bsd scanned the 'installable devices' via a probe, it found the camera device but wasn't smart enough to know it wasn't a disk/storage device. so the install hung hard.

    removing the firewire cable allowed the installs to continue (all of them).

    the very thought of linux or bsd trying to install itself on a VIDEO CAMERA just makes me laugh. imagine the design issues of that - when the system boots up, does it display titles on the video camera eyepiece? if it fscks, does it have to rewind the tape often? does it have the 1024 cylinder limit if you boot from mini-DV? ;)

    just kinda funny, I guess. the new motherboard bios' are trying to abstract the media type and say 'disks are disks, no matter if ide or scsi or firewire'. ha!

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    1. Re:can't install linux on a VIDEO CAMERA by WatertonMan · · Score: 1
      the very thought of linux or bsd trying to install itself on a VIDEO CAMERA just makes me laugh. imagine the design issues of that - when the system boots up, does it display titles on the video camera eyepiece? if it fscks, does it have to rewind the tape often? does it have the 1024 cylinder limit if you boot from mini-DV? ;)

      What's funny is I'm sure someone has tried to get Linux running on a camera. I mean there is some joker trying to get Linux running on an iPod. We have it for most game consoles and many PDAs. Every few months there is some Slashdot story about having Linux running on some odd piece of equipment with typically no purpose than "it's cool!"

  13. What is up with software destroying drives? by mhesseltine · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First Mandrake 9.2 and LG CD-ROMS, now this. Is this something the hardware manufacturers are doing that violates the common standards (IDE, ATAPI, IEEE1394)? Or, is this software companies trying to squeeze out a little more performance by not adhering to a standard?

    --
    Overrated / Underrated : Moderation :: Anonymous Coward : Posting
  14. Its in the ChipSet by LuckyLimey · · Score: 1

    We use tons of firewires in our office - and I have been seeing a lot of failures on BIG (>200 gig) LaCie drives (mostly) - and these are running on Windows2000, and XP machines. Lost data, mount failures, eratic behaviour. I took one of these drives and hooked it to my PowerBook G4 and had a kernel panic... this is fully repeatable.

  15. MOD PARENT UP -- very likely correct! by Militant+Libertarian · · Score: 1

    I was about to post about this very same discussion on ars tech.. Those are some smart foolios, been correct about a lot of things in the past.

    --

    I fear nothing but my government. Vote Libertarian.
    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP -- very likely correct! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You were also about to be wrong, just like the parent.

  16. Apple motherboards kill firewire bridges by littlerubberfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work at a small sound studio. We use macs for their stability and simplicity. I had been trying to figure out what to do with the 4 dead WD Caviar 30gig drives, 5 dead Maxtor 80 and 160 gig drives, and 4 dead Que! CD-RWs. They are all external firewire devices. After getting no where with Maxtor or Apple, and not being able to pinpoint the failure to a single G4 or circumstance, I took apart the damn things.

    ALL the drives were still perfectly good. The firewire bridges were bad. ALL the drives were advertised as hot-swappable. Almost all of the brideges died during, or after a hot-swap procedure. Indigita, a bridge company, has been gracious enough to test some stuff for us.

    I suspect that the problem isn't just with panther or bridge firmware. I think there is a problem with the mac firewire interface generally, expecially when hot swapping.

    --
    Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
    1. Re:Apple motherboards kill firewire bridges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, I work at a midsized ad agency and I've never had a firwire device (a dozen FW CDRWs, four Maxtor 250s in enclosures, a score or so smaller Caviars in enclosures and a few others) go bad once. Including two Que! FW HDs that were attached to machines during Panther installations (including one that went bad and required a restore from the external drive).

      I suspect your problem is a screw loose in the operator.

    2. Re:Apple motherboards kill firewire bridges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, no. People have just installed Panther without making sure that EVERYTHING in their system has the latest updates. We've gotten to use to "just plugging it in and going". That's a great feature of Macs, but like any good thing it can be taken too far. Update your firmware people, Oxford has released a statement saying as much. If you have a OWC 400 or 800 Firewire drive go here:

      Tech Support

    3. Re:Apple motherboards kill firewire bridges by kgp · · Score: 1

      The usual thing that kills BOTH Apple motherboards and peripherals is CRAPPY worn out firewire CABLES.

      The problem comes when the strain releif doesn't releive the strain (beware of twisting the cables especially on cheap firewire cables) and the power lines in the cable nail the PHY on the Firewire/IDE bridge board or the PHY on the motherboard.

      Whenever you have a firewire problem that you think has killed either a drive or a motherboard SWAP OUT THE CABLE FIRST.

      A sacrificial firewire hub or at the very least PCI card also helps trouble shooting.

      And yes sometimes just waiting helps (if the self-resetting fuse has blown ...)

      Wiebe has a great FAQ on this:

      http://www.wiebetech.com/pressreleases/FireWirePor tFailures.htm

      Reading it can save you a great deal of grief (for any platform user -- not just Macheads!).

    4. Re:Apple motherboards kill firewire bridges by littlerubberfeet · · Score: 1

      I tested the cables, and have read that FAQ. I have a feeling the motherboards in the G4s went bad when hotswapping. Someone probably didn't ground themselves...

      --
      Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
  17. Re:YHBT by SuDZ · · Score: 1

    it is only a 17MB file. I mean come on now if it was an 18 it would have taken him well into the 3 hour range.

    SuDZ

  18. Panther Eats FW 800? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's nothing!

    I eat Ultra320 SCSI drives for breakfast.

    I love to sprinkle some pixie dust for added texture and flavor.

    Mmm... platters...

    And I get my daily requirement of Iron, too!

    ~Joe

  19. Never Never buy anything the first day.. Never by G4from128k · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This just goes to show the hideous complexity of all the myriad permutations of software, platforms, and peripherals that defines modern computing environments. All software for a mainstream platform is beta when it is first released because it is impossible for the maker to test every possible combination (or even most of the common ones). Even with lead user groups and the developer community testing the so-called "betas", there are always missed combinations of equipment. Only when millions of people try something do you see the real problems appear.

    So don't buy new software the day it appears. Wait and see what problems it causes and then buy the x.x.1 update after a suitable wait to see if that's safe.

    BTW, this rule applies to new pharmaceuticals. I'd recommend waiting at least 10 to 100 million doses and 5-20 years before taking any "new" medication unless it is a total blockbusting lifesaver.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Never Never buy anything the first day.. Never by Mikey-San · · Score: 1

      Today's computer Zen:

      If no one uses the .0 release, who will find the bugs in it?

      (Okay, I get that if you're in a critical production environment, the bleeding edge is a bad place to be, but /someone's/ gotta use the products before the remaining bugs can be shaken out, right? You know, just as long as it isn't ME . . . ;-))

      --
      Mikey-San
      Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
    2. Re:Never Never buy anything the first day.. Never by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Today's computer Zen:
      > If no one uses the .0 release, who will find the bugs in it?

      "There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnum

    3. Re:Never Never buy anything the first day.. Never by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He didn't say that:

      http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbarnum.htm l

    4. Re:Never Never buy anything the first day.. Never by Drakonian · · Score: 1

      It is our duty, as Slashdot readers, to take the hit for the team and discover these bugs. That's WHY we are Slashdot readers. Just don't put it on your companies production server.

      --
      Random is the New Order.
  20. I learned a similar lesson by hbackert · · Score: 1

    "Panther has managed not only to lose my iTunes Library and my iPhoto Library, but also their backups kept on -- you guessed it -- my external FireWire hard disk,"

    I once reinstalled a Compaq server. I copied all data to the externally connected SCSI raid and I only wanted to reinstall WinNT on the 2 internal disks. I felt safe. How wrong I was...

    Because the Compaq 'System erase' tool erases not only things like the date/time, internal disk, BIOS settings etc., but also partitions/disks on all connected SCSI controllers it can access without any special drivers (3rd party FC is thus safe). When the external RAIDs disks flashed up, I knew what happened.

    Moral of the story: have a backup in a safe place, not connected in a way like this. Especially if you actually care about the data.

    1. Re:I learned a similar lesson by celery+stalk · · Score: 1

      Hence the reason why, when reinstalling OS'es on my computer, I unplug the power and/or IDE cables from my storage HDD's. This also prevents me from accidentally deleting the partitions from the wrong disk.

      --
      aaaand...whee!
  21. grrr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this bug has me so pissed off. i lost all my work!@# argh!@#!@$
    they knew about this bug in early betas but they didnt fix it.. wtf

  22. forgot to learn to read, did we? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um . . . the drive is both Mac and Windows compatible.

    1. Re:forgot to learn to read, did we? by uradu · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Where did I imply otherwise? Before you get snippy, maybe you should learn basic English comprehension.

    2. Re:forgot to learn to read, did we? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most windows users would be cheap enough that they wouldn't by such an expensive and overly flashy piece of shit when they know they can get one cheaper.

      Windows users may not be smart... but at least they aren't yuppie mac users with too much money to burn.

      So fuck off you stupid peice of shit.

  23. In my case by djupedal · · Score: 1

    I have an external FW800 drive case[..:.. example...], with a 120gb Seagate. Connected to a 1.25GHz G4.

    For the record, I've had no issues with Panther and this external drive. I checked the firmware, and it was the suspect 1.02.

    Just to be on the safe side, I downloaded and applied the firmware update from WeibeTECH, again, with no issues.

  24. Major disaster by Zhe+Mappel · · Score: 1
    This will erase more than data - good will and credibility have vanished with this blunder, too.

    At an Apple store on release day, I nearly went against my better judgment and snapped up the not-ready-for-primetime Panther. I was backed up, after all, to my firewire drive... Then I thought, "Wtf, Zhe, you horn dog, do you want to pay to find bugs for Apple?"

    Whew. Saved by a momentary flash of discipline. ;-)

  25. that drive of yours IS oxford 922 by mr_burns · · Score: 1

    The drive the author of the post cites IS one of the effected drives.

    I did a lot of research the other night because I have panther and a western digital firewire 400 80gb. Turns out if your firewire drive is from western digital AND it's a combo USB/Firewire then you're using oxford 922. The drives that are just firewire 400 and no USB are oxford 911.

    So don't plug that drive of yours into your mac until we see the WD patch.

    Over at macfixit.com there are reports that it's not just the firewire 800 people that are being bit either. Turns out they've seen the same thing on firewire 400 drives too.

    So even thought I'm on an oxford 911 drive, I'm not plugging the thing in until I get confirmation that I'm safe.

    --
    "Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
  26. Also problems with plain old IDE drives. by greygent · · Score: 1

    I have a first generation Quicksilver 867mhz and I am noticing massive IDE (Not Firewire connected) hard disk corruption problems with 10.3.

    I first noticed it when Safari would lose all its preference settings and the Itunes Music Library file would corrupt itself.

    I aso noticed that when downloading some apps like Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger they'd be corrupt the first time I downloaded them, and then I'd redownload them and they'd work the next time.

    Today I did a large amount of ftping, and I was unarchiving and sifting through what I downloaded earlier, and it was viewable and all that. Now, I can't open these files, and when I open some of the text files I read earlier, they are filled with binary gibberish.

    Today, I lost a lot of data... a lot.

    Not...f'ing... good.

    mazama at absent dot org

    1. Re:Also problems with plain old IDE drives. by greygent · · Score: 1

      Update: this problem appears to be a bug in FileVault. Don't have it enabled. See Apple Support Discussions site for further info.

    2. Re:Also problems with plain old IDE drives. by useosx · · Score: 1

      So you have data loss on IDE drives because of FileVault, but FileVault's not enabled? You're scaring me, man... can I get a link to other people talking about the problem?

    3. Re:Also problems with plain old IDE drives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Don't have it enabled.

      It was an advice, I think.

  27. Panther in your pocket by Galileo430 · · Score: 1

    While not totally related to Firewire 800 not working. This is my Panther horror story.

    Over the summer, I got a dev seed of Panther while it was still in beta. I decided rather than wiping out my existing partition on my Powerbook's hard drive. I would instead install it to my iPod. I installed it, ran great. Until that is, I went to listen to my music. All there according to iTunes but not according to my now dead iPod. It appears Panther overwrote the software on my iPod and the "secret" music partition. Everything is fixed now. (thank you iPod restore tool)

  28. Oxford's fault, not Panther by willmc · · Score: 1

    Having read much of the press coverage, the discussions in the forums and the statements from both Apple and the Oxford people, I feel it may be appropriate to note that it appears that Oxford is the one at fault here, not Apple. Oxford's press release complains that Apple changed something about the way the OS interacts with the drives, but there's no mention anywhere of Apple actually breaking out of the FW800 standard. This, paired with the fact that Apple released no bug fixes and it was Oxford that issued fixes, seems to point a pretty big finger at Oxford for relying on Apple's code's behavior and not the FW800 spec itself. Tsk tsk. Open standards are open for a reason, guys.

  29. Update: problem solved? by Steve+Cowan · · Score: 1

    This page states:

    Apple has identified an issue with external FireWire hard drives using the Oxford 922 bridge chip-set with firmware version 1.02 that can result in the loss of data stored on the disk drive. Apple is working with Oxford Semiconductor and affected drive manufacturers to resolve this issue which resides in the Oxford 922 chip-set.

    In the interim, Apple recommends that you do not use these drives. To stop using the drive, you should unmount or eject the disk drive before doing anything else. Please check this web page for further updates.

    Update 11/4/2003:
    Apple and Oxford Semiconductor have confirmed that firmware version 1.05 resolves the data loss issue experienced by some FW800 users. FireWire disk drive manufacturers have begun posting firmware updates:

    Lacie
    Macpower
    Century Global
    Other World Computing
    Firewire Direct
    Firewire Depot
    Wiebetech
    Ezquest
    Glyph
    Only use the updater provided by the maker of your drive and follow the installation instructions carefully. If your drive manufacturer is not listed, contact them for more information.

    This message, third party links and related information are provided by Apple for information purposes only, without representation and warranty of any kind. Apple expressly disclaims any liability relating to the use of this message, third party links and related information. Any questions regarding third party support should be directed to the appropriate third party.