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Are MMORPGs Too Complex?
Thanks to Skotos for their column discussing whether MMORPGs are sometimes too complex for the average gamers. The writer suggests: "Often, I just want to sit down and do something simple and fun. Yet, the structure of most MMOGs doesn't accommodate this", and goes on to illustrate this, arguing "It seems like many MMOGs lately are tending more toward 'have fun doing your tax forms online while paying for it.'" The piece also discusses boredom: "How many MMOGs have the ability to mine/farm/fish/collect wood? How many are there in which this is NOT just a repetitive clicking of the mouse based on the computer response?", and putatively suggests a solution of "play[ing] Tetris to mine faster", coincidentally implemented by the recently launched Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates.
The next MMORPG i make an investment in has to have an excellent trade skill system. And I don't mean just collect items, put them in a bag and hit combine. I want something as detailed as the one in ATitD, but simplified graphically (the GUI for some of the tradeskills in that game is very confusing at times).
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the answer is no. people for now play the games. no game will please all players, for now there is a market that stays in buisness selling complex MMORPGs
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altough not an MMORPG by any means, I could sit down and fish for hours in Zelda 64. The fishing had very little to do with completing the actual game, but it was done in such a way that it was quite addicting and rewarding. wasn't just a "push button to cast, push button to reel in", but the camera followed the lure as it sank into the water, giving a nice visual of the size of fish nearby. Catching was just as fun, as you had to wiggle the lure just enough to draw the fish attention, but not so much to scare him.
Whenever i got stuck in the game, or was slightly bored, fishing always was a good way to pass some time in a very enjoyable manner. the inclusion of little things like this could potentially get me interested in a mmorpg. weekly bass fishing tournaments; with the trolls doing a little spearfishing.
I think Asheron's Call 2 is a good indication of what happens when you try and DUM things down too much. The game wasn't any fun and is pretty much a failure.
One should not theorize before one has data. -Sherlock Holmes-
Fair comment. We may try to tone down the more abstract MMOG stories a bit in the future - people start asking the same questions after a while, and it blends together a little bit. :)
Actually, the problem that I run into more often than not if that the skill systems aren't complex ENOUGH. When I raise a level in a skill, I want it to be because I actually learned and got better at something. As it stands, most MMOGs use the model of "try, try again," where, for example, in smithing, you WILL break the item, or create something entirely useless on your first, oh, 20 tries. While 20 may not seem like much, when the process takes maybe 5 minutes each time, and costs you (fake) money every time, it gets very annoying quickly. On the other hand, if I had figured out what was going wrong on the 3rd try, and changed my process, I could be making the desired item more effectively and quickly. Of course, that's entirely moot if the key is something simple that everyone could figure out relatively quickly (or look up somewhere online, in guide-form), but the time-sink isn't a very good alternative.
I really doubt that MMORPGs will ever become mainstream, at least not the UO, Everquest, combat heavy ones. Having programmed MUDs back in the day, these exact discussions came up all the time, and the reality is that there are many flavors of gamers, and different games will appeal to different subsets. However, the "mainstream" gamer just flat out doesn't have time or interest to invest in a MMORPG.
I did have some hope that the Sims might be innovative enough to pull in the casual gamer, but it didn't happen. It appears that the "casual" gamer is happier with a chat window they can minimize when their boss/spouse/parent/etc walks by more than they want a full screen gui. Why? Because casual gamers see right trough the "game" (which doesn't interest them) and realize instinctively that this is a very attractive chat room.
Puzzle Pirates frankly has more hope because it plays on the favorite things of the casual gamer. Chatting and simple puzzle games. Popcap + AIM. Most "hardcore" gamers would prefer to be kneecapped than be caught playing something like that though, so I doubt the gaming press will see it for what it is.
Sig under construction since 1998.
For Sony's Star Wars: Galaxies MMORPG, programmer Ryan Palacio was seized by weird inspiration and, while no one was looking, created the most in-depth fishing simulation for any online RPG. It's quite amazing.
In SWG you can fish in most any sizable body of water, but different parts of a given lake provide better fishing at different times of day. The fish you catch vary by planet, of course, but also by region of the planet, and they have different nutritional characteristics. Very rarely you hook, not a fish, but some item from the game's spawn tables -- not lightsabers or Imperial AT-AT walkers, but just about anything else you can get or make in the game, including droids. There is no Fisher class, but it's possible to make a living fishing.
Ryan's managers were a bit bemused when he revealed the full extent of the fishing simulation. But ultimately they shrugged and said, "Well, why not?"
As with most any system in an online game, some players loved the system passionately and wanted even more detail. I don't know whether Ryan ever got around to expanding the fishing system, but I hope so. He seemed to really enjoy doing it.
Fair comment. We may try to tone down the more abstract MMOG stories a bit in the future - people start asking the same questions after a while, and it blends together a little bit. :)
I don't think the MMOG stories should be toned down at all. As I've said in previous comments, MMOGs are definitely going to be commonplace in the future, but right now they're a very complex thing for developers and they're having a hard time mastering them. That makes them one of the most intriguing questions in gaming right now, much like 3D console games were when the PlayStation and the Nintendo 64 introduced them to mainstream gamers. 3D games were a very interesting problem for developers at that time, as no one had really thought of ideas like Devil May Cry's semi-static camera angles or Ocarina of Time's Z Targetting, which completely revolutionized 3D action games. MMOGs are going through the same teething process right now and I think it's interesting to see it all come together.
I also don't think that these problems were solved in MUDs. I think that idea is ridiculous. You couldn't play graphical minigames in MUDs, you didn't have even one one thousandth of the amount of players on MUDs that you do on MMOGs, and the developers of MUDs never had the option to force you to join a party because there were always at least four hundred people that weren't in a party at any given time. The size of the average MUD also made it a lot easier to deal with these so-called "griefers" that try to ruin the game, as you not only had one admin per thousand players, but usually several of them for every thousand players, because just a few hundred people made up the entire MUD's playbase, if not less than a hundred. A single admin could handle the entire griefer problem in a day on a MUD. A single admin on an MMOG is lucky if he cuts through 10% of it in a week.
The only thing we need to see less of are dumb MMOG stories like "MMOGs - Societies or Games?" or "A Call For Expandable Codpieces in MMOGs". Stories about the evolving form of MMOG gameplay are interesting, but not all MMOG stories are.
I miss all of the more linear RPGs of old; you didn't have to form parties and invest tons of time into it just to gain a level, or camp an area to fight a monster there that spawns in 2 hours.
-Magiluke
Earl Grey, Hot.
Back when I played ATITD, one of the activities that always needed to be done was create charcoal. Charcoal making consisted of sitting at an oven, and adding wood or water, and changing the ventilation on the oven. Your skill at how well you could do these things directly affected how quickly you made the charcoal, and how much wood it took you.
Problem was, everyone hated to do it. Something about how it required attention and was a bit stressful made it entirely unappealing.
Perhaps what we really need isn't mini-games, but using other aspects of the game like exploring in order to be more effective.
We've upped our standards. Up yours.
I would prefer if you didn't. It isn't like .games is overcrowded with stories. If one doesn't like MMORPG stories, why not just not read them instead of complain about there being too many? When .games has half as many posts as slashdot main, then I can understand wanting to cut down. However, until that time I think that it wouldn't hurt if there were MORE MMORPG stories.
You rarely read a book with page after page detailing how the main character fetches wood in the forest. That is the kind of thing the character should do when the player is not online.
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MMORPGs are simple. They are for the most part very simple. The thing is that people are so desperate to get an edge that they take mind numbingly simple game mechanics and try and combine them in a way that is complex to get a small advantage. The game is still simple though, and for people not looking to min/max, most MMORPGs are less stimulating then minesweeper. This is, in my opinion, why many people don't like MMORPGS (myself included). The mechanics are deathly simple and boring, and I simply don't care enough to try and manipulate the game in absurd ways to get some small advantage.
MMORPGs need MORE complexity. With more complexity they could be interesting to play. Instead of string together simple and boring game mechanics together to try and create something complicated, people could find complexity and intrigue that they are looking for without having to go hunt it down. Complexity in most MMORPGs is deeply hidden and will require levels of tedium that the average sane player is simply not willing to put up with to find. If the complexities are clear and out in the open, then the masses will find these games as interesting as the guy who sets all his skills just so with tedious precision to get a certain effect.
MMORPGs are complex if you are willing to endure untold amounts of tedium to find that complexity. If you are not willing to put up with that level of tedium to find the complexity then the game is simple and boring. MMORPGs need to bring their complexity to the forefront of the game and make it accessible to everyone, not just the one addict who is willing to divine the games damage formulas to do the most possible amount of damage. Bring complexity to a place where you don't have to be an addict to find it, and people will start to play these games casually. Until this happens no sane person is going to shell out money for a boring and simple game that any monkey could play.
Did anyone ever play that? It was a really simple, really fun, multiplayer game (the 20-50 people that played each game is massive enough for me). Basically you picked one vehicle from C&C, and your job was to destroy everyone else in that particular game (oh yeah, and collect power-ups to help you). The games were really short, and I think the only drawback of it was that back then very few people wanted to pay for a game that you could only play on the internet, and games like that require a lot of players to be on at once.
Funny enough it sounds almost like a multiplayer version of the snowball game in the column.
And before you say this is off-topic, the story was talking about MMOGs, not just MMORPGs.
For some serious, insightful discussion on how to create good MMO(RP)G's. Pitfalls to avoid, what players like, what players think they like but should actually be avoided etc etc, Sigil Games has a very good community. Visit their forums here!
(These are the guys who made the original EverQuest, for the most part)
There's always Diablo II, seriously. There's really no commitment (money or timewise) and you can always save and exit in a pinch. It was a great game when I had only have 15-20 minutes to play at a time, and levels and loot came quickly. That was pre 1.10 patch, so "quickly" in hell mode might be incorrect.
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