Slashdot Mirror
Red Hat's CEO Suggests Windows For Home Users
Selecter was one of many readers to point out a ZDNet story in which "the CEO of Red Hat now says that Linux is not ready for the desktop, but may be ready in a few more years. Curious - I'm wondering if this is the start of a corporate only retrenchment of Linux, or just a bump in the road to Linux having a wider desktop share?" Apropos that, Gwobl writes "Jim Lynch, over at ExtremeTech, weighs in on the fate of the Linux desktop, now that Red Hat has apparently turned its attention to the enterprise and Novell is buying SUSE (to go with Outlook clone Ximian, which it also owns). Lynch's take: Cheer them on! The Linux world needs these strong champions. And don't overlook Novell's networking roots. Time was, Big Red defined networking."
Nothing these companiess have done really drives linux.. linux drives itself. Even Redhat, despite their contributions, is just along for the ride.
Linux will succeed regardless of what happens with these companies.
It was a very useful tool before they arrived, and will be equally useful after they are gone.
Dear Redhat,
Thank you so very much for the lovely knife which you planted in my back this morning. The handle is immaculate and the steel of very good quality.
We realize this is a turbulent time for redhat and i had feared that you would not have time from your friends while you transition to an enterprise-targetted company. It was as such very nice to recieve your little gift and know you still cared. I was talking to Linux, Alan Cox and Mandrake, and they feel the same about the similar gifts you sent them.
Love,
SUSE
and until there is a Linux distro that "just works" it won't be.
Consider:
The lack of good font support in X. But it's not just X. It's applications too. There's no unified way to use fonts, or to use the "right" fonts.
Lack of good clipboard support in X: Perhaps it isn't X that's the problem. But most applications cannot agree on what clipboard format they are using. Forget about copying an image in Konqueror or Mozilla and pasting it into OpenOffice. Or even formatted text for that matter. Sheesh!
Number of Linux distributions: There's no way to
make a good installer that will install a commercial app on Linux and have everything work. There are too many dependencies for specific versions of libraries and things that would make this sort of thing worse than any kind of Windows DLL hell.
Drivers: Linux intentionally makes it difficult for people to release binary-only drivers. Of course, Binary only drivers are a bad idea anyway, some vendors will insist on it such as NVidia.
Games: Linux would make an ideal game platform IF games were released for it. Now I realize this is a chicken/egg problem of course, but you have to factor it in when thinking about if Linux is really ready for the Desktop...
All of this being said, I do use Linux as a desktop. I feel comfortable with its limitations. I'm not an average user though, and I wouldn't expect any average user to figure out how to make Linux do what it can do.
Now, where I disagree with Red Hat is that you should _not_ use Windows. Use Mac OS X. It's way better than windows in design, and just works.
Szulik gave an example of his 90-year-old father going to a local retailer in order to purchase a computer with Linux: "We know painfully well what happens. He will try to get it installed and either doesn't have a positive experience or puts a lot of pressure on your support systems," he said.
Thing is, lots of consumers have exactly the same sort of experience with Windows. But with Window's they're the market leader, not some minority emergin alternative. People are far more likely to think there's something wrong with them when they can't make Windows work as they expect, and the reverse is true for Linux.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
..for everytime someone said "Linux isn't ready for the desktop", I'd be paying these people to STFU. I was a big supporter of Red Hat in the past (been using it since 6.0), but with the recent changes to their support, and boneheaded comments from their execs, I've pretty much had it with them. Look, if Linux isn't ready for your desktop, fine, I won't beat you over the head. But it's been ready for my desktop for the past 3 years, and lots of other "non-techie" types as well.
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
if linux goes back to the popularity it had in 1999ish, all the "1337 5cr1pt k1d5" will be happy again because their personal identity, defined through their computer's operating system, will be closer to unique once again! (speaking as someone who was one of these people back in 1999, and had a wise unix guru tell me why i was being a dumb kid, and helped me grow up by losing that attitude and demonstrating linux advocacy where appropriate, and avoiding it where not)
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
Maybe he's just being realistic? Don't get me wrong, I've used RH daily since 5.2. I've also supported Win9.x and XP for friends, family, and co-workers. When a linux distro has that slick of an install ("Just click "next""...), along with *all* the device drivers, it'll really take off on the desktop.
And that's the catch-22, IMHO. I believe that the truly successful desktop linux company/distro will pay most all of their attention to simplifying and integrating things in the GUI, and 3/4 of their devel's will be device driver people. Why do I say this? because, people buy computers for its devices. Device manufacturers won't be arsed to write linux drivers until it has a much larger market. It won't have that larger market until you can plug XYZ into a USB port without thinking, cuz it had a penguin sticker on the box.
C|N>K
This isn't about all of "us" who already have linux on our desktops. This is about all of "them" who do not know if they have Windows XP or Windows 95.
There is a digital divide, but it isn't about race, religion, or economic status. It is all about knowledge, skill, and the desire to actually understand what you are doing. Many of "them" will never understand anything about computers. And probably most of "us" will never understand why they don't feel the same as we do.
Use what works for you. If I want to use a hammer for any mechanical work, so be it. If you don't agree with me, you might just start to look like a nail. *wink*
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Szulik gave an example of his 90-year-old father going to a local retailer in order to purchase a computer with Linux: "We know painfully well what happens. He will try to get it installed and either doesn't have a positive experience or puts a lot of pressure on your support systems," he said.
;-). I really care is when the average 30 year old business person can use it without out any more complaints then they have with Windows.
I'm sorry, but I tried to get my 75 year old father-in-law to use the internet. I got him a Windows box with a simple dial up connection and set everything up for him. But he has yet to use it by himself. It would have been easier for me if I set him up a Linux box, because I know it better and could write scripts to help him log on automatically. I know it is also possible to do that with Windows but I didn't have the time to learn it for him.
My point is that computers in general are not easy for an old fashioned 75 year old who rather write snail mail letters than to use email. So that excuse is not a good one.
Linux is partially ready for those willing to learn. It is not Linux's fault for not being ready, but it wont be ready until all software vendors port there products to linux. I won't be Windows free until I have a reliable tax program for linux. I still use quicken since I don't believe that gnucash is there yet. Also it helps since it works with my tax programs.
Also the GNU/Linux system needs a standard that all non-free software vendors can write code for. This includes games. Once it gets that far, and Linux gets the software vendors to treat Linux equal to Windows, then Linux will be a fine alternative to the average user. I don't care about 70 year olds learning about computers just because their children want them to (well I do care about my father-in-law
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
If you don't think fsck is a word, you clearly are unqualified to comment on this article.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Well, it doesn't take an MBA to realize that businesses kinda need to pursue things that generate profit. I personally thing RedHat made the right choice in ditching a line of business that was dragging it down.
It's also possible that perhaps Linux isn't really ready for the mainstream desktop. I personally have a hard time picturing my mom installing and maintaining Linux on her home computer.
I'm certainly not saying Windows is anything great, or that Linux doesn't have its merits, but Linux has very much grown organically along the path that UNIXy people have wanted it to grow in, which doesn't always lend it to being an "average consumer"-friendly OS.
Chris -- http://www.bitter.net/
Other than the lack of official pay-for tech support (which my guess is most home users didn't use), this is a good thing. Not only do we get RedHat's people working on packages, but we get the experience and time of the Fedora people, too. This will mean more packages, better packages, and more releases more often.
In exchange, RedHat will get some better packages for their enterprise distros, which will give them a stronger foothold in the enterprice market, which is a good thing for Linux fanatics everywhere.
The quality of the non-enterprise redhat release will not get worse, and we will presumably still see updates for the "old" redhat branches get pushed through Fedora, so those of us using 7.3, 8 or 9 in production environments will still get our openssh, bind, sendmail, whatever patches when we need them.
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
What the hell is this idiot thinking?
On the one hand, he just pissed off a lot of the loyal Red Hat users. On the other hand, he just turned a bunch of consumers off of Linux. And on the third hand, for you three-handed folks out there, he's going to turn off his enterprise consumers as well by saying, "There's something we don't do well."
Now it may very well be true that Linux doesn't do the desktop well, it may not be. I've got my own opinion, as do you.
The point is that when you are trying to sell something, as Red Hat is, you don't say, "We don't do this, and don't think people should try it with our product." You say, "We may not do this well, but we think people can do it, and we're working hard to make the experience even better." This is Public Relations 101 for cryin' out loud.
How the hell did Red Hat get this loon? And what's the over/under on Red Hat's PR department releasing an "Explanation" within the next 24 hours???
Things are not going well down Red Hat way.
WTF!?!?
...err Redmond.
RedHat advocating Windows?
You'd think they would have advocated an OS whose underpinnings are some what related to their own and offer a bonafide "OS alternative" that provides ease of use, popular applications and has name brand recognition.
Sure, fine... turn away from the home-enthusiast and ma/pop sector. But at least support those who contribute to the OS community rather than the dark lord in Mordor^H^H^H^H
However, Szulik expects Linux to be ready in a couple of years after it has had time to mature.
What is it, a fruit? It takes time to ripen? I think not. That's just stupid. RedHat Linux is not suitable for the home user desktop because RedHat has not made it so. Waiting will accomplish nothing.
Edith Keeler Must Die
So Red Hat acknowledges the realistic state of Linux on the desktop and dares create a Debian style distribution with their trademark ease of use and their employees working on it?
What assholes!
Your ignorance to the fact that Linux is a superior operating system in all spectrums of performance, security and above all else stability.
Sigh. OK, I run three operating systems. Linux on my server, OSX on my laptop and Win2k on my desktop. I have to say that I've never noticed that performance of linux on the desktop is superior to Windows. My experience has been exactly the contrary. Linux on the desktop is slow, unresponsive and until quite recently, somewhat flaky with poor font rendering and a pretty poor user interface.
And I'm not a new or occasional user of linux either. I've been running it steadily since MacLinux/LinuxPPC and RedHat 5.2 so I think I'm in a position to make an informed decision here.
Now I think XP and 2k are the better of the Windows line of operating systems but like anything from Microsoft its usually half done when you get it SP1 and soon to be SP2 did not and I suspect won't fix half the problems and security issues still to be found.
I'm currently running Mandrake 9 on my server, and I hadn't patched it for a few weeks, so I just did an update at the weekend. I downloaded over 90gig of patches and critical software updates. I suspect that in actual bandwidth, I've used far more updating Mandrake than I have updating Windows 2000. (Or I would have done if I hadn't had to reinstall Windows 2000 as often as I have.)
Leaves me puzzling why you even commented. I would much rather use a Linux desktop then XP anyday.
You must be a masochist. While I share your ideological preference for free software, it doesn't run any of the software that I want on my desktop, and as a user experience it really doesn't come close to being as user friendly as Windows 2000. It's sluggish, clunky and has a long way to go yet before I'd be happy to give up Windows 2000 -- and there's really nothing I'd like better than to be able to do that.
Redhat bloat (and SLOW gnome bloat) is BIGGER and WORSE than windows bloat!
I wont tire of saying that a P400 with 64MB and Redhat 9 + Gnome thrashed disk like mad while the P100 32MB Win95 machine it replaced was much much better.
When I put 200MB in the P400 it stopped thrashing and was only 4 TIMES SLOWER than the P100 with 32MB and win95
Thats GNOME for you, who persue idealistic usability instead of pragmatic usability.
Then don't get me started on Debian, that DOESN'T install the packages containing the kernel modules needed to run the installer until AFTER the next boot when its too late, cos the network card (and PCMCIA) were some of those drivers.
Debian - where the "about" docs are merged with the "join us" docs which are merged with the "instructional" docs so it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to get any information out in any decent ammount of time.
Debian - whose users think apt-get is better than the ("I never heard of it") rpm/up2date of redhat and with much less features.
As you can tell I'm ticked off at Linux on the desktop.
For 2 years I've dual booted, preparing to make the switch, I still haven't been able to do it!
I guess I'm sticking with win2k another couple of years despite my FAT32 my documents to I can use open office from win or linux, thats the ONLY thing that works, with MOZILLA on a NEARLY 2nd best.
Desktop Linux is nowhere soon.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
I don't think it's as simple as that unfortunately. Users plug in multifunction devices (printer/scanners), cameras, camcorders, etc. Games.
They can't easily use Linux and plug in something and have it just work. Not so say that in Windows everything just works either, but it's supposed to work without doing much. Linux usually isn't, you often have to mess with things a lot.
Depends on what you need to do. If you're a very light computer user you could get away with it. Hell, I even had OS/2 on my mom's computer for a long time and it was fine.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Please. I am not Joe dummy. i use it as a server and its great. I thought to install it on my laptop and sort of convert myself.
Linux sucks with multimedia compared to windows. Windows I can play a DVD with any number of easily installable and functioning programs. Linux I killed myself getting 2 different programs to work. And they still have many issues. I was told to rewrite code if I had a problem. Which i would if I had time but I'm contributing to other open Source programs right now.
Not to mention I also had to compile my own code after I deciphered and modified byte codes to get power management to even thing about working. And its not working fully either. Linux is yet to have a full power management strategy.
It neither ready, nor easy.
Saying it will be in 2-3 years is also a joke unless Redhat or somebody puts some muscle behind multimedia and power management.
Plenty of ways.. but to mention one:
/etc/modules.conf? Forget about it: Average joe-blow user can not, will not, and should not have to do that kind of stuff.
Hardware installation.
With Windows every hardware manufacturer and his dog are out there to make sure that the installation will work for 95% of the windows users.
In linux, it MIGHT be simple.. if kudzu (if you're using Redhat) detects and configures the hardware correctly. But this is not always the case. Nor are drivers always available.
Upgrade the kernel? Edit
Imagine if you were a sysad trying to explain an average secretary how to deal with troubles in linux. The problem is, that there might be a lot of troubles that the average guy isn't ready to deal with. In windows you reboot and things go fine 99% of the times. In linux you can keep rebooting and it won't improve your situation.
It's true that in Linux you have less chances of "strange errors", but - if you have an untrained person on the other side of the phone, every error is a strange error (that in windows you solve by telling them "reboot").
conclusion: if you think that linux is ready for the average desktop guy, try installing into a mid-sized company and deal with end users.
The Desktop is not a conquer - in fact, GNU/Linux is what it is for the sake of it. It's not a race! C'mon, who cares who wins the desktop in 2003? What's more important is that linux will become more and more stable and superior because its code quality and standards.
On the long run linux will prevale. Right now that's not the top priority.
now mod me down.
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
The slashdot posting should be modded -1, flamebait. The actual quote from Szulik is, "I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line," he said. "I would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more." You will note that the posting says nothing about "home users" while the headline of the ZDNet article clearly says "home users."
Another quote from later in the article: "We think that the enterprise desktop market place is much more strategic and has buyers whose needs we can exceed." The consumer market wants their computers to work with their digital cameras, GPSs, MP3 players, favorite games, etc. and, like it or not, Linux isn't there. Some of the lack of support is due to a "chicken and egg problem" of no one asks for such support so its not there and because its not there, no one asks for it. When some large companies tell their suppliers that they're out of the bidding because they don't support Linux, you'll see support for high-end stuff that rapidly filters down to support for "consumer" level stuff.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Am I the only RedHat fan who not only thinks this is a good idea, but is relieved that they're finally doing it?
The business model for Aunt Tillie desktop Linux just isn't there for 3 reasons:
I envision the first two points becoming invalid within a couple of years, but the last one isn't likely to change. Since the vast majority of desktop Linux users are also free riding (nothing wrong with that, it's what I do), making money off of the Linux desktop is just a dangerous game to be playing.
RedHat didn't sell us out. The Fedora Project is The Right Thing. If you don't know what that is, follow that link and don't return until you grok in fullness.
The average consumer doesn't like Windows, but they like it more than anything else because of what it can do. Linux is technically superior, of this I am sure, but until we can get the average consumer to like it more than Windows, we're not gonna sell it to them. RedHat's move to maintain profitability by pushing Enterprise Linux, coupled with the open development of the Fedora Project, is only going to accelerate this process by combining the best aspects of a profitable corporation and a loosely knit coalition of hackers.
Remember, we are striving for world domination here...
Red Hat CEO says that users should use Windows!
Microsoft to use Apple CPU in next-gen gaming console, forgetting that Macs suck for gaming!
Apple computers comprise world's 3rd fastest machine!
Honest to God, what's next? Has the sign of the apocalypse befallen us! Run, run while you still can, before the legendary Apple OEM 2-button mouse is nigh!
--
$tar -xvf
Linux is nowhere near the desktop.
- no GUI rules, total application jungle and no power apps for the end user. Don't get me wrong, I think OO and the Gimp are good programs. They're not however serious Office or Photoshop replacements.
- no hardware support - the average person wants their gadgets and stuff to work without having to write a driver or spend hours on end trying to install one.
- administrating your machine and keeping it sound and safe is not feasible for about 90% of people that are currently using computers
Windows is on all desktops, but does a half-ass job
- sure, you have tremendous power-apps, but you'll lose data ever so often for no apparent reason
- there's a sort of plug and play that sometimes works immediately and even works longer than a month. More often than not, however you're frustrated into looking for drivers.
- administrating your machine and keeping it sound and safe is not feasible for about 90% of people that are currently using computers
There's only one desktop that really takes the hassle out of computing, and that's OS X.
Disclaimer: I think Windows is friendlier and more foolproof than Linux, but I think Linux is way cooler and an incredible feat in itself. But we're talking about the desktop here.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
new found direction? i was always under the impression that the linux desktop always was sort of a joke... sure, it's okay for geeks -- but the learning curve is far too steep for the average user. i think of my mother as the lowest-common-demoninator when it comes to computer literacy (no offense, ma!) -- and she still has difficulty with her mac [os x] after owning it for over a year, and recieving several lessons from family members.
redhat was available on hp,compaq,dell servers for the past 4 years or so? i hardly think this behavior is "new".
there's a lot of great environments out there, but when it comes to being *PRACTICAL* for average-joe-user, its really just windows and os x.
But Joe Dummy would hardly risk installing hardware himself, would he?
Yes he will. He'll install the hardware following the guidebook step by step, and then Windows(r) will "Detecting new hardware" on startup, and take him through 9 dialog boxes, ask for the system disks, and fill the Device Manager with red exclamation points.
Then he'll get on the phone to the hardware manufacturer, and the nice guy on the other end will tell him precisely what mouse clicks will make it work. If he hadn't been using the same OS as 96% of all customers, that recourse wouldn't have been there to save him.
But if someone had set me up with Linux when I was a novice I am sure I would find it easier to install hardware in Linux now.
Not really. There's a whole separate category of problems Linux users can run into, which simply don't happen to people using a majority OS. When buying hardware, it's completely safe to assume that everything in CompUsa is compatible with a Windows/Intel platform, unless the box specifically says "Macintosh". And if you need confirmation, the clerk will absolutely be able to tell if the product is supposed to be Windows compatible.
With Linux, there's no guarrantees like that, so even choosing new hardware is tricky. Most packaging says nothing about whether it's Linux compatible, although much hardware is. Rarely labels announcing Linux compatiblity can be seen, but they sometimes refer only to one specific 2-year old RedHat distribution.
So there's the whole difficult problem of "Can it work?", before you even start to answer "How can it work?". And there are many products that have no hope of Linux compat. Winmodems (except for one Lucent chipset), the SoundBlaster 16 (and compatible) audio cards, Intel's Centrino wireless networking... the list goes on and on.
Just look at me: I'm using a USB mouse at my Linux workstation now. This year I bought a second USB mouse. It works fine in Microsoft(tm) Windows(r) systems. But plug it into Linux, and all USB devices stop responding until you reboot. Apparently there are subtle differences between mice that can really trip up an OS. Who knew?
PS. Technically the Soundblaster 16 can be made to output sounds under Linux. But the restrictions imposed by the driver design render it painfully less capable than the same card in Windows.
Sorry, but Red Hat has sucked for awhile now. They continually been behind in package management for example. Why should I need to go download a third-party Red-Carpet management app to get what apt-get and urpmi give me on Debian and Mandrake respectively? up2date has very basic package installation support if you subscribe to RHN (which we did, now we're screwed in 6 months) or hack in your own repositories.
As someone who just installed about 6 Red Hat boxes into production after convincing the boss that we might as well go with the "commercially supported" distribution, I now face absolute product obsolescence in 6 months (Red Hat 9 will have no further updates, apparently including security fixes, after April 30th 2004). I tried to convince him that Debian was a decent choice, but it backfired when the "stable" distribution doesn't even install smoothly on our new hardware (APIC issues causing lockups DURING install on brand new Asus AMD boards). The only way to get around it was to compile a custom kernel completely without APIC support. Obviously this didn't bode well with proving Debian is a good distribution for the business environment. I fear it's going to be back to Mandrake for us on the servers. :-(
This guy ignores these realities:
1. The parts of linux which are "not ready for the desktop" are the things needed on the enterprise desktop too. Things like cut and paste, and printing to name a couple. If RedHat does not approach these issues its enterprise desktops will not be polished in the near future.
2. RedHat is not big enough to take on Microsoft on its own, as plenty of companies have found. Its latest announcements have given weapons to Microsoft which can be used on decision makers and what's more, has alienated the community of individuals and companies which have created nearly all of RedHat's products.
3. There currently are in fact a lot of people using linux on the desktop, and RedHat seems to forget that ALL current RedHat customers started by using the RedHat desktop!! Does RedHat imagine they can throw ALL of their current customers into the trash and start from scratch?
4. Mac OS X is unix-based, unlike Microsoft Windows. It would make far more sense for RedHat to recommend that home users use Macs, which are easier to use, more advanced, and could also run unix applications, than to recommend Windows, which you can only trust to further muddy the waters of incompatibility. The less people use Windows in any sense, the better for RedHat.
5. RedHat has now officially alienated its customers, the producers of most of its products, the competitors which up to now had been in league with RH against Microsoft, and everybody smart enough or interested enough to recommend RedHat desktop software and use it. If they thought it would be ready in a couple years, they would not be dropping it now. After all the recent announcements about product life cycles and not selling desktop software, and now this total backstabbing, I am losing interest in RedHat and see no reason to recommend their enterprise line anymore though I would have done so in an instant a couple months ago. RedHat has forgotten how it got started and why they have gotten this far. Even in large companies and governments, the decision makers need to be on their side and this guy is RedHat's own worst enemy.
6. The linux desktop has made many strides recently and will continue to get better, no thanks to RedHat. Possibly this and the Novell news will help other distros become more unified and give some more impetus to fixing the desktop. But this is mainly going to happen because people want to invest their time/money in making it happen and RedHat's lack of interest in such development indicates it is not interested in supporting linux's future. Possibly Fedora will take off, but something tells me it is not going to be because of this suit. U.S. corporate culture has breeded a whole generation of smiling, heartless executives who imagine that getting the numbers right will spell success. I feel ashamed.
7. Slashdot, arguably one of RedHat's best free PR outlets, has turned from RedHat lovers to FSCK RedHat (that's FUCK REDHAT! for nontechies). RedHat can kiss their allies goodbye. FUCK EM!