Novell Presents Mono Roadmap

So... what's the deal? by msuzio · 2003-11-19 04:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

So, is this worth looking into for C# development at this point? Is it complete enough? I know next to nothing about C#, but I wouldn't mind learning it. I mostly do Web/Internet apps, and my flavor of choice at the moment is Java (servlets, not the horror that is EJB).

I keep hearing about Mono lacking System.Windows.Forms -- is this a big deal? What else might it be missing (and is any of that going to be coming soon, like within 6 months?).

I have a lot of my developers here asking about C#, and I wouldn't mind exploring it. Our enterprise division is probably going to move towards using it in new products (we mostly sell Windows-based apps), so being able to better work with their products and code might be nice too...

So, uh... enlighten me.

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It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way

Re:So... what's the deal? by raimundo · 2003-11-19 04:40 · Score: 5, Informative

I've really enjoyed using C#, I definetly recommend taking some time to learn it. Effort is underway to implement S.W.F, but GTK# is already works cross platform. With Glade and the nicely designed Glade# stuff, using GTK# is a pleasure.

As for web development, alot of work is going into making Mono a robust web development tool. It's still in the early stages, though. Haven't used it myself yet, but Ximian is comfortable enough with it to already be dog fooding.
Re:So... what's the deal? by borgboy · 2003-11-19 05:44 · Score: 4, Informative

It [C#] is complete enough that Java(tm) is including features that already exist in C# in 1.5 - including enums, attributes, and iterator-aware looping.

Otherwise, from a syntax standpoint, C# is pretty roughly equivilant to Java(tm). They are both OO languages (no flames about which is more OO, that's a dumb argument) that support single-inheritance, multiple interface implementation, and some component-oriented development paradigms (beans vs properties)

C# is similiarly including more features such as anonymous methods and Generics which made it to 1.5 before C# will get them in 2.0 "Whidbey".

I do serious, production work in both. IMHO, it isn't the language that is differentiating, it's the class libraries and the reach of the underlying platform that dictate the decision to use one vs the other.
For Windows development, C#/.Net has a serious edge.

For cross-platform server applications, Java(tm) is extremely strong.

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meh.
Re:So... what's the deal? by borgboy · 2003-11-19 07:50 · Score: 3, Funny

does ASP.NET not suck as bad as ASP under IIS used to?
Nope. it really does not suck. It aint perfect, but damn it's a couple orders of magnitude better than ASP.
I never really liked the 'let's put our code in our pages' thing
Neither did I, or many people, for that matter. That is why a lot of serious developers compiled COM components to service requests. Now, asp.net is a step further in that direction by explicitly (depending on the way you develop) separating logic from presentation via MyPage.aspx files (presentation) vs MyPage.aspx.cs files (logic). Of course, as in Java(tm), you CAN do it wrong/easy by glomming everything into your aspx pages. Bad programmer! No donught!

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meh.
Re:So... what's the deal? by DukeyToo · 2003-11-19 15:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

ASP.NET is definitely ahead of vanilla ASP. It has separated code from display, which is good. It has also added web controls, which are very very powerful. It is also (mostly) compiled, which adds speed.

However, it is still lacking in several areas:
* lack of built-in page templating mechanism
* datagrids are latebound (and possibly interpreted)
* CSS support in Visual Studio is abysmal
* the style of ASP.NET is "lots of custom pages" - it does not encourage large maintainable web sites.

All in all, it is very "VB" - nice and easy to create something simple, but it takes some ingenuity to create a larger, maintainable product.

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Most writers regard truth as their most valuable possession, and therefore are most economical in its use - Mark Twain

"Don't let the man get your down"?? by phaze3000 · 2003-11-19 04:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

Novell bought Ximian as much for Mono as anything else. This is a key part of Novell's future, I hardly think they are publishing the roadmap "in spite of the Novell purchase".

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Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.

Novell Loves Mono by raimundo · 2003-11-19 04:34 · Score: 3, Informative

Contrary to what the poster seems to think, Mono is becoming an important part of of Novell's strategy. Very shortly after Novell bought Ximian, its developers started showing up on the Mono lists and becoming involved in the community--without trying to exert any type of control. They even appear to have already started some important projects using Mono.

Is Mono a death threat to Microsoft? by Captain+Kirk · 2003-11-19 04:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

If I understand this Cringely article correctly, .Net will make Microsoft hardware independent - I, Cringely

All of the MS products are being rewritten to be based on .Net. ISVs are being pushed towards .Net. In the case of VB developers, they simply don;t have a choice. For C++ developers, MS is constantly selling us the manageed C++ mantra. Even game developers are getting the .NEt pitch.

If Mono works, then Microsofts own products, those of independent system developers and popular games will all be just as good on Linux, OSX, etc. as they will be on Windows. That should make MS very nervous. Go Miguel!

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1000s Warcraft Gold while you sleep

Re:Is Mono a death threat to Microsoft? by 4of12 · 2003-11-19 05:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

If Mono works, then Microsofts own products, those of independent system developers and popular games will all be just as good on Linux, OSX, etc. as they will be on Windows. That should make MS very nervous.

As nice as the potential technology is behind .NET and Mono might be, I tend to be more worried that the interfaces to heavily-used class libraries and components will not be sufficiently specified. That is, not all of the behavior will be replicated if you simply drag `n drop your Visual developed application from the latest Longhorn server over to a cheap Linux box. Does that even happen in the Java world, where cross-platform portability is constantly trumpeted?

Differentiating themselves from commodity Linux platforms and leveraging their strength in Windows seems to be more consistent with Microsoft's business objectives.

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"Provided by the management for your protection."
Re:Is Mono a death threat to Microsoft? by dthable · 2003-11-19 05:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Does that even happen in the Java world, where cross-platform portability is constantly trumpeted?

It still exists if you just want to stick to the base functionality. The problem becomes the limited amount of control you have over your applications look and feel. To really leverage that functionality, you need to get down and dirty with the operating system.

It still can be done (i.e. QT), but takes a huge amount of developer effort and time.

Anyone with some *BSD-specific notes? by puff+the+barbarian · 2003-11-19 05:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

From the Mono FAQ:

Question 52: What architectures does Mono support?

Mono today ships with a Just-in-Time compiler for x86-based systems. It is tested regularly on Linux, FreeBSD and Windows (with the XP/NT core).

So okay, does anybody know how well it runs on Dragonfly?

Hate to beat a dead horse, but.... by Captain+Rotundo · 2003-11-19 06:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hold no ill will toward Ximian or Miguel, they have done great things, but I still am completely unconvinced by Mono.

I've used Mono a little (Dashboard and others) and qutie frankly I am not impressed with C#, and I am not convinced of the "common language" nonsense. What does strike me is how it seems no different or better than the technology Java introduced years ago. Add to that the fact that I don't think anyone can successfully play catchup with MS, and that I think MS patent lawyers will pounce the second Mono looks credible to a .Net or C# developer.

Why not re-implement a Free Java clone with the same resources. Java is more 'open' (maybe not officially with standards but in practice for sure) Java is here NOW, and Java has developers now. Not to mention the stigma of cloning MS wouldn't be there to scare away people like me. - Not to mention the things in .Net that are very windows specific that it is either hard or useless to port to a different platform (who wants a VM language that requires a windows emulator to run? why not just write a windows program and use full on Wine at that point?)

I really hope Mono becomes something great, but I simply don't want to invest my time in a platform that appears will remain a bastard step-son to .Net for the foreseeable future. On the other hand Sun seems to have an interrest in a GNU/Linux desktop at this point, and may be coming around to wanting a full fledged java platform on Linux.

Re:Hate to beat a dead horse, but.... by DukeyToo · 2003-11-19 07:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

.NET is very Windows-UNspecific, not at all what you would expect from MS. It has some Microsoft specific stuff, (eg. accessing windows registry) but that is generally relegated to a separate "Microsoft" namespace.

In addition, you seem to think that .NET is all about Windows Forms. It is not. For me, that is the least interesting aspect. You can write console applications, or server deamons, or web services, or DLLs for re-use by multiple UIs.

Like Java, C# is here NOW, and C# developers are here now. As are VB.NET developers, as fast as they can convince their management to change. As a platform, .NET has a large amount of support, from the people who write software for Microsoft platforms. I assure you, there are very many.

For myself, I develop specifically for Windows, and .NET has to be very important to my career. And Mono is too, because it opens up a whole new market for my MS-centric skills - suddenly, I have a chance of telling management that they are no longer tied to MS because their business relies on my Windows program. And that is very exciting.

If you are a Java specialist, there is really no need to stray, for now. However, Microsoft will do everything it can to make it easier and easier for you to migrate your skills to .NET, and at some point in the future it may become worth your while.

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Most writers regard truth as their most valuable possession, and therefore are most economical in its use - Mark Twain
Re:Hate to beat a dead horse, but.... by Captain+Rotundo · 2003-11-19 09:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

You made my point exactly. Your interrested in .Net because your a windows developer. There is no compeling reason to be interrested in .Net if you are not tied to the Microsoft platform.

Microsoft does not like Mono or Linux by GreatDrok · 2003-11-19 06:55 · Score: 3, Interesting

Yeah, I know, big surprise.

A couple of years ago I visited MS in Redmond to see if there was some way my then company could work with MS. We had a very encouraging two hour discussion and I was told that MS would very much like to work with us. I had demo'd our software on a Linux laptop running KDE (so I don't think they noticed it wasn't Windows) and mentioned that as we were a Linux based company we would use Mono to integrate with .NET. The response was "We don't work with Linux companies, I'll get you a cab" and that was that.

While it is clear that they don't like Linux, I think it is also apparent that they will not condone anyone using Linux/Mono as a development platform instead of Windows/.NET and they will very obviously move to kill it by incompatibility as soon as it shows the slightest chance of being a threat.

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"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"

Re:Microsoft does not like Mono or Linux by zero_offset · 2003-11-20 00:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

What surprises me is not that they sent you packing, but rather that it surprises you (apparently), and that you even bothered to try. Why in the world would you have expected Microsoft to greet a Linux-based company with enthusiasm, regardless of what you're making/selling/proposing/etc...?

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Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

But there *can't* be a Mono roadmap by cabalamat2 · 2003-11-19 08:09 · Score: 3, Funny

Mono is an open source project, and Steve Ballmer says open source doesn't have roadmaps.

I believe everything Steve and Bill tell me, so this "roadmap" obviously doesn't exist.

Re:Java is open by axxackall · 2003-11-20 03:29 · Score: 2, Informative

EJBs (Entity Java Beans) are a very small part of Java.

You are pretty new with java, aren't you?

EJB stands for Enterprise Java Beans (not Entity beans, which are just a part of EJB, but not everything). The way how things are designed makes Java without EJB useless for Enterprise applications. And EJB is very far away from being small part of Java. EJB actually do help to integrate various applications in an enterprise to work together, in a same (similar) way as .Net does. Using Java without EJB for such integration is the same as writing on C++ (or even on Assembly) without .Net

Of course you don't need neither .Net nor EJB when you develop a standalone web-site. Feel free to choose between PHP and JSP in such case. But that would be off of originial topic, I can say.

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Less is more !

Re:Java is not open! by mcbevin · 2003-11-20 05:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

If Java is 'useless for complex applications' without EJB, then I'd say Java is pretty much useless based on my experiences with EJB. Luckily however, theres also a thing called JDO which does what EJBs should do, but a lot better and simpler.

To answer those that say C# is no better than Java, I'd personally choose developing a GUI with C# + Visual Studio over Swing any day. C#'s XML handling I also find a lot nicer that any of the DOM/JAXB etc alternatives available with Java. And C#s auto-boxing and unboxing also relieves some Java-annoyance. Theres three rather improvements which have impressed me, but there are also others :).

As a language I find C# has a few such nice improvements on Java with very few drawbacks. This has to be of course balanced with the fact that Java is a lot more mature (i.e. theres a lot more tools out there that use Java) and is not Microsoft controlled.

Also, look out for future versions of both languages. Java 1.5 is including some really nice improvements (i.e. generics for one), as is the next .NET version. Nothing wrong with a bit of choice and competition :).

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