Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Tale of Two Tech Hubs: Silicon Glen & Chandiga

Posted by michael on from the it-was-the-best-of-times-it-was-the-worst-of-times dept.

securitas writes "A pair of stories about two technology hubs in different parts of the world contrast and document their efforts to flourish as regional technological centers: Scotland's Silicon Glen and India's Chandigarh. The BBC explains that Silicon Glen is still struggling to recover from the technology bust with 15,000 jobs lost in the last year alone. 'Scotland's electronics sector contributes one-seventh of its gross domestic product, directly employs 45,000 workers, and accounts for more than half the country's exports,' which are down 50%. Meanwhile, the New York Times reports on northern India and the birth of a technology boom, as a group of government officials, consultants and high technology entrepreneurs is trying to transform the city of Chandigarh from a 'sleepy farm state capital into the "technology hub of northern India."' The city is competing with other Indian cities by offering 'lower labor costs than India's "first tier" technology hubs, places like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Bombay and Gurgaon, outside New Delhi.' As Chandigarh competes with its rivals for call centers and software development parks, some of those cities are experiencing a labor shortage of skilled workers. These aren't the only two places with such reversals of fortune - how does your region fare?"

15 of 263 comments (clear)

  1. I find it amazing by musingmelpomene · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That with all the complaints people make about young people working in the garment industry for low to poverty-level wages in third-world nations, no one has yet figured out that basically, by letting technology companies take jobs overseas, we're encouraging the same thing on a different level. Just because it's more white-collar doesn't make it less of a sweatshop.

    1. Re:I find it amazing by gid13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't know for sure, but my guess is that the tech industry jobs in India pay more than sweatshop jobs.

      In any case, it seems to me that an interesting solution would be for "wealthy" countries to impose minimum wages on companies that do business in their country but employ people in other countries. E.g., if Nike had to pay its African workers, say, half of the U.S. minimum wage, or else be forbidden from doing any business at all in the States.

      That way, Americans would be less freaked out about losing their jobs to foreigners because it wouldn't happen so much, and the sweatshop employees that remained would actually be getting a significant level of monetary help.

      Of course, I have a suspicion that Indian tech workers make more than U.S. minimum wage, and as far as I can see, there isn't too much that can be done about that given American ideals. In particular, capitalism is supposed to promote efficiency by rewarding people who do things cheaper. And if Indians provide better tech value, it seems to me that it's the American way to farm out those jobs.

    2. Re:I find it amazing by jgalun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I find it amazing that despite 50 years of successful globalization, we still hear these moronic arguments against jobs moving overseas. After WWII, the US accounted for 50% of world GDP. Europe, Russia, and Japan were destroyed. South Korea, China, and Taiwan were agrarian. etc.

      Since then, Europe and Japan have been rebuilt, and East Asia and India have greatly advanced technologically. America only accounts for 25% of world GDP today - but our standard of living is much higher.

      This is not a zero-sum game, people. Yet every decade, we hear the same moronic complaints. People were worried about Japanese electronic goods. Then they were worried about Japanese cars. Then they were worried about cheap textiles from overseas. Then factories in Mexico. Steel dumping. etc. etc.

      If these predictions had been correct, the United States would have a lower standard of living today than it did in 1945, and a higher unemployment. But the reverse is true - we have very low unemployment today, and a higher standard of living than ever before.

      So suck it.

      As for these jobs being "sweatshops" - please. The fact is that these countries have much worse capital infrastructures, so they need to work their labor much harder to make investment attractive. But it's not like it stays that way forever. Believe me, Taiwan and South Korea and China and India are far better off today after their sweatshop phases than they were before. Or, don't believe me, but believe the people of those countries - do you see the Chinese up in arms because their standard of living has doubled in the past 20 years? Why is it that the democratically elected government of India is moving away from socialism and trying to attract those "sweatshop" jobs? Why does South Korea have such a high standard of living today, if these are simply sweatshop jobs?

      Gimme a break.

    3. Re:I find it amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      That with all the complaints people make about young people working in the garment industry for low to poverty-level wages in third-world nations, no one has yet figured out that basically, by letting technology companies take jobs overseas, we're encouraging the same thing on a different level. Just because it's more white-collar doesn't make it less of a sweatshop.

      I think you are a fool.
      I worked in Bombay for 7 years (4 in Software &
      3 in other industries), also in Bangalore for 1
      year. Nowhere was it a sweatshop.

      My cubicle in Bombay was actually bigger & more comfortable than my first office in the Silicon
      Valley - I was a permanent employee at both
      places.

      The sweatshop like conditions exist only in
      unskilled labour jobs - not for engineering ,marketing jobs or any white collar jobs in
      Bombay.

      I will be going back to Bombay to work next year.

      Dollar to rupee conversions are meaningless when
      you compare wages.

      In Bombay, I can go to a very good restaurant (a
      fine dining place, not the equivalent of Denny's)
      & have dinner with wine & appetizers & dessert for
      around 10$. If I go to a Denny's like place, you
      can have a decent meal for 2$.

      I can take a taxi-cab for 15 miles for 5$ or so.
      I can pay a maid to come in everyday for 20$ a
      month. I can get an oilchange for my motorbike
      for 1-2$ all included.

      You can rent an apartment in the suburbs for
      about 200$.

      After coming to the US, my lifestyle has improved
      in someways, but has gone bad in other ways -
      which is why I am going back next year.

    4. Re:I find it amazing by fbg111 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That way, Americans would be less freaked out about losing their jobs to foreigners because it wouldn't happen so much, and the sweatshop employees that remained would actually be getting a significant level of monetary help.

      You're assuming that Indian IT workers aren't already getting a significant level of monetary help. There's an article about this very phenomena in the latest issue of Fortune magazine, and one point it makes is that $2000/month salary for Indian call-center workers is princely. A 23-yr old Indian male was interviewed and said his goal is to own a house and a car by the time he's 28. He already has the car (and motorcycle).

      The problem is, Americans see our $60,000/year jobs going over to India and morphing into $24,000/year jobs, and we automatically think "sweatshop!" "exploitation!". But that knee-jerk reaction doesn't take into account that India is a developing nation, the cost of living there is significantly less, and the (1 dollar : 46 rupee) exchange rate further magnifies the wage disparity in our eyes.

      In any case, it seems to me that an interesting solution would be for "wealthy" countries to impose minimum wages on companies that do business in their country but employ people in other countries. E.g., if Nike had to pay its African workers, say, half of the U.S. minimum wage, or else be forbidden from doing any business at all in the States.

      A better solution would be for America to adapt to globalization. That's not impossible, as so many seem to believe/fear. In fact, self-organizing adaptation is one of main strengths of capitalism. We did it when the Japanese took over the auto industry, and have been doing it with the steel industry, for two examples. We're the most creative nation in the world, and just as importantly, we have the economic, legal, and social structures to allow us put that creativity into practice. There's no reason we can't apply those advantages to the problems that globalization brings. Turn lemons into lemonade, so to speak.

      And we can start with our dismal educational system. As one Indian business leader stated in that Fortune article, we need to retool our educational system so that it gives people the knowledge, skills, and work ethic needed to both create and take advantage of new economic opportunities that will inevitably arise with globalization.

      Regardless, globalization may be painful for some, but if it helps bring the rest of the world out of the dark ages, then consider it a long-term investment that will eventually pay itself off ten-fold. Who knows, maybe one day, democratic, affluent India and (dare I say it) China will be exporting their call-center and IT jobs back to the US.

      --
      Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
  2. Crying a river.... by dameron · · Score: 5, Funny

    I know it's not technically ironic, but man, wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall, or see the look on a lead programmer's face in Banglore when he's told his job is being "outsourced?"

    Seems they've found someone who will do the job for even less scratch. I suddenly find my sympathy gauge tapped out...

    -dameron

  3. Explain this to me. by s20451 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've noticed that in every article having to do with outsourcing, there are more than a few posts calling for the government to do something about it (i.e., instigate tarrifs). Yet in every article having to do with file sharing, the overwhelming sentiment is: their business model is obsolete, we don't owe them a living, deal with it. Well guess what -- this is the world you've created! The high-paid tech worker business model is becoming obsolete. It's hypocricy that obsolescence should apply to everyone except yourself.

    I grant you that not everyone who wants tarriffs also wants the RIAA to FOAD. However, I have yet to hear a single techie say, "Well, I guess I'm obsolete -- better go find a new, profitable skill set." It's all fun and games when the victims are anonymous, isn't it?

    --
    Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
  4. Resources by BWJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This should exemplify that IT resources and programmers are finite. Jobs dry up in one area only to resurface where costs are lower.

    Any industry that becomes a commodity will undergo a similar transformation. This is exactly what made the whole silicon valley experiment so wildly successful in that an entirely new paradigm was created that existed in few other places. When the "resource" became common and the concepts became commodities that could be moved around, traded and bargained for, the result was job movement to where those who had the skills would work for less. So, the trick is to innovate and again create for the world markets and ourselves skill-sets that are unique and in demand for the products or services they provide.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
  5. Re:New emerging markets aren't playing fair ? by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm sure your post is particularly interesting to former steel workers in Wales and elsewhere around the world that have lost their jobs because of the hefty import tarriffs on foreign steel introduced by the Bush administration.

    Seriously, if you're going to talk about free markets, then feel free to do so. But first have the decency to acknowledge that the US definition of free trade isn't 100 percent free.

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
  6. No, they are paid quite well by alphakappa · · Score: 5, Informative

    do not convert rupees to dollars - use the PPP(Purchasing Power Parity) according to which 1$ ~=Rs 8 instead of Rs 50 according to the conversion rate. Going by the current cost of living in india, an entry level engineer who is paid Rs. 25,000 ($500) is a comfortable sum), comparable to being paid $50k p.a. in the U.S. And if you are smart enough, you can rise up to P.L. or higher in a couple of years, and your salary goes up tremendously.
    There is one difference though - no one keeps to 40hr weeks - your work schedule depends on the project. I've known my friends back home to work even on weekends when a project deadline is near. It may sound bad, but for young 21-25 year olds, it's not a big pain. It also creates the kind of productivity that took Japan to the top - societies can afford to have comfortable 40 hr. weeks after they have advanced enough (and then see their jobs being taken away by other places where THEY are willing to work 60 hr. weeks)

    --
    "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
  7. Re:New emerging markets aren't playing fair ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    You've got SOME nerve calling India and china protectionists! US and EU are the largest farm
    subsidisers in the world and directly responsible for destroying the livelihoods of millions of poor farmers around the world. Do you have no shame at all? Here's just one small fact for you: In 2001, the 25,000 US cotton growers received roughly $3.9 billion in subsidy payments, for producing a cotton crop that was worth only US$ 3 billion at world market prices (One Arkansas cotton grower received US $ 6 million, equal to the combined annual earnings of 25,000 cotton farmers in Mali). Such are the glaring inequalities, that an American cotton farmer on an average receives US $ 10.7 million a day as subsidies. More for pacifying the public sympathies than for correcting the dirty economics, the WTO did consider the contentious issue of cotton subsidies, as if it was an isolated case of exploitation of developing country farmers.

    Throw this statistic at your Congressman and ask him why US is waging an economic war against the most vulnerable sections of humanity and driving them into poverty, death and destruction.

    Wake the f**k up and stop this war!!
    http://www.dsharma.org/trade/america.htm

  8. We ought to be allowed to be as mobile as jobs. by thisissilly · · Score: 5, Insightful
    IMO, the part of the problem with outsourcing is that the jobs are mobile, but the people are not allowed to be as mobile as the jobs, due to immigration laws.

    For instance, if my job were outsource to India for 1/3 of the salary they pay me, but that turns out to be a decent living wage in India, I can't say "fine, I'll take the pay cut and move to India!", even if I want to. If all the jobs in my area of expertise move out of the country, I can't follow them, I have to find a new field of employment, because of artificial barriers to my mobility.

    If there are going to be artificial barriers to my mobility, I want artificial barriers to my job's mobility as well.

  9. Adam Smith was no fool by OffTheLip · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Call it what you like but a free market economy even in the new world order will still cater to a product delivered at the lowest price. Outsourcing is a fact of economic life, innovation is the answer. If more "third world" programmers and designers rise above cookie cutter programming watch out.

  10. U.S Humor by rlp · · Score: 4, Funny

    1998
    Q: What did the high school grad say to the Computer Science Major?
    A: Would you like fries with that?

    2003
    Q: What did the high school grad say to the Computer Science Major?
    A: You're supposed to ask them if they want fries with that!

    --
    [Insert pithy quote here]
  11. quality and price by xPertCodert · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am an Israeli. and have been working in the local Hi-tech industry for the last 10.5 years. when I started working here in 1993, a common monthly wage for an senior software engineer was around 2000$. it peaked in y2000 at about 6000$ and now it's somewhere in a range of 3.5K-5K$ a month. ( if you can get a job, that is. and that's not bad at all in terms of average wage here at around 1700$ month. And the reason for it is because the quality of the local hi-tech product is very high. and a lot of companies are willing to pay this money + benefits in order to get it. Just ask the likes of Intel, Motorola, TI, HP etc which have major R&D centers here. ( sometimes the only ones abroad). However it's very different when it comes to India. I worked with lot's of code produced by major Indian outsourcing companies (Like Wipro, for example) and I can say tht those guys are not really ready for prime-time. (No offence, I hope) So it all comes down to quality vs. price. Nowdays there are a lot of companies that are willing to pay far less money to get the job done and they don't mind quick and dirty approach. and that's where India comes in. But if you want to do something serious, you'll never outsource there, at least for now. and I am sure that when those guys will get quality and experience, their price WILL go up and become comparabale to the prices in the developed countries. BTW there are also trends to import cheap workforce to some country close but outside US or EU. for example Cyprus. I personaly know companies that moved development centers there and employ hundreds of Indian guys for fraction of a price. but as I say in the long run you always get what you payed for.