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Effective XML

milaf writes "Who doesn't know about XML nowadays? Quite a few people, actually: there has been so much hype around it that some people think that XML is a programming language, a database, or both at the same time. On the other hand, if you are a developer, chances are that you feel that -- no matter its usefulness -- there is not much to XML. After all, it may take just a few hours to get the hang of creating and parsing an XML document. Maybe this is why most of the many and voluminous books discuss numerous XML-related technologies, but say less about the usage of XML itself." Read on for milaf's review of a book that takes the opposite tack. Effective XML: 50 Specific Ways to Improve Your XML author Elliotte Rusty Harold pages 336 publisher Addison-Wesley rating 10/10 reviewer milaf ISBN 0321150406 summary Very well written collection of topics on XML Best Practices

In Effective XML: 50 Specific Ways to Improve Your XML, Elliotte Rusty Harold takes a different approach: know your elements and tags -- they are not the same thing! -- and weigh your choices in a context, because any technology applied for the wrong reasons may fail to deliver on its promises.

Following Scott Myers' groundbreaking Effective C++, the author invites us to re-evaluate seemingly trivial issues to discover that life is not as simple as it seems in the world of XML. In each of the 50 items (chapters), he gets into the inner workings of the language, its usage and related standards, thus giving us specific advice on how to use XML correctly and efficiently. The 300-page book is divided into four parts: Syntax, Structure, Semantics, and Implementation. Yet in the introduction, the author sets the tone by discussing such fundamental issues as "Element versus Tag," "Children versus Child Elements versus Content," "Text versus Character Data versus Markup," etc. On these first pages the author started earning my trust and admiration for his knowledge and ability to get right to the point in a clear and simple language.

The first part, Syntax, contains items covering issues related to the microstructure of the language, and best practices in writing legible,maintainable, and extensible XML documents. (In it, over 19 pages are dedicated to the implications of the XML declaration!) That seems a lot for one XML statement that most people cut-and-paste at the top of their XML documents without giving it much thought, doesn't it? Actually not, if you follow the author's reasoning and examples.

The second part, Structure, discusses issues that arise when creating data representation in XML, i.e. mapping real-world information into trees, elements, and attributes of an XML document; it also talks about tools and techniques for designing and documenting namespaces and schemas.

The third part, Semantics, explains the best ways to convert structural information represented in XML documents into the data with its semantics. It teaches us how to choose the appropriate API and tools for different types of processing to achieve the best effect. This chapter has a lot of good advice for creating solutions that are simple, effective, and robust.

The final part, Implementation, advises the reader on design and integration issues related to the utilization of XML; these issues include data integrity, verification, compression, authentication, caching, etc.

This book will be useful to a professional with any level of experience. It may be used as a tutorial and read from the cover to cover, or one can enjoy reading selected items, depending on the experience and taste. The book's very detailed index makes it an excellent reference on the subject as well. In the prefix to the book, the author writes, "Learning the fundamentals of XML might take a programmer a week. Learning how to use XML effectively might take a lifetime." I'm not sure about the "lifetime" -- that's an awfully long time for using one technology -- but for the most confident of us this still may not be enough :) . Your mileage may vary, but I suspect that you could shave a few months off that time by browsing through this book once in a while. Most importantly, it will make you a better professional and make you proud of the results of your work. Wouldn't this worth your while?

You can purchase Effective XML: 50 Specific Ways to Improve Your XML from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

64 of 312 comments (clear)

  1. library by Pompatus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you want to read any book for free, just ask your local library to order it and they will. Libraries guess at what books people want to read, so if anyone shows any interest in any book, they order it. They loose their federal funding if they don't spend the money they are allocated, so they are generally VERY willing to buy as much as possible.

    --

    ----
    Squirrel ... It's not just for breakfast anymore
    1. Re:library by essdodson · · Score: 2, Funny

      They should spend more on dictionaries. Perhaps then they could tighten up their federal funding before it gets too loose.

      --
      scott
  2. One thing is for sure... by foistboinder · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's got to be better than Ineffective XML

    1. Re:One thing is for sure... by elharo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hmm, I was wondering what I could do for a sequel. (Only half-kidding).

  3. Government Health Warning by NickFitz · · Score: 4, Funny
    Learning how to use XML effectively might take a lifetime
    ...
    you could shave a few months off that time by browsing through this book

    Reading this book shortens life expectancy. Still, it's your choice...

    --
    Using HTML in email is like putting sound effects on your phone calls. Just say <strong>no</strong>.
  4. Unix Tab-Separated ASCII Files vs. XML by billstewart · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sure, XML isn't inherently that deep - but neither are the tab-separated ASCII files which Unix tools used to do all kinds of really powerful things. Similarly, LISP property lists aren't that complex. XML's a bit more flexible, and carries enough decoration with it that people are willing to use it for building interfaces that they might not build using ASCII or XDR. And anything that lets the EDI people replace their stuff with simpler, more open technology is good too..

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Unix Tab-Separated ASCII Files vs. XML by Anml4ixoye · · Score: 4, Interesting
      And anything that lets the EDI people replace their stuff with simpler, more open technology is good too..

      My current project for the last 8 months has been working on just that - parsing HIPAA EDI transactions. We do it by converting them to XML data structures. There is a decent white paper about it too.

      What I've found is that, for readability, XML is the way to go. For performance, EDI is definately better. I have one EDI file that is 23k. When expanded to XML, it is close to 5000 lines long.

      I agree with an earlier post. If you are using an hardware XML accelerator, or using small XML documents (config, etc), or needing readibility over performanc then it is great. But I have a hard time believeing that it will replace tab-seperate files any time soon (not that the parent poster was implying this).

  5. The main issue with XML is performance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
    Others have said it before, but I'll say it again. XML is heavy weight and isn't free. The best example of this is SQLXML. Although it sounds nice to use SQLXML, the performance on most commercial database see a huge drop in performance. This is due to the fact that parsing XML blows and eats up copious amounts of CPU and memory. I've had people ask me about how to solve problems with SOAP on windows and java applications. The bottom line is, unless you're using hardware XML accelerators, XML is a resource hog.

    On a related note, more details on Microsoft Indigo are finally available. According to this article on XML mania microsoft's future platform will use XML as much as possible. More details are available on microsft's site. The funniest part is they are claiming indigo + longhorn will be the best thing since slice bread. Maybe they haven't learned the hard lesson that parsing XML kills performance.

    1. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by I8TheWorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I share your opinion regarding XML, and have yet to find a great reason to use it, other than feeding data to our vendors systems through their proprietary file layouts.

      On that note though, I wonder if this author has some insight into better uses for XML than what I've typically seen (XML does everything!). I won't, however, be running out to buy it, as XML will always be just more bloat and a resource hog by nature.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    2. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by I8TheWorm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To put it another way...

      this single record

      Doe, John 1234567 12/1/2001

      took 31 bytes, while it's XML companion (using short, simple tags) took 96 bytes.

      Not all XML files wind up being 3 times the size of their flatfile counterparts, but they are inherintly larger. There really isn't a way to make loading/parsing that data any faster, by the nature of working with ASCII/ANSI files. XML will always be slower.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    3. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by vmfedor · · Score: 3, Insightful
      This is the main reason I personally don't believe XML can be used as a functioning database. I see it being used more as a way to transport data across the internet and across different platforms. If two companies merge and one uses mostly UNIX-based servers and the other uses Microsoft, the two can combine their databases easily using XML.


      I see XML as a nice way to transport data but (at least right now) it's not mature and/or fast enough to serve as a fully functioning database.

      --

      I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.

    4. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Others have said it before, but I'll say it again. XML is heavy weight and isn't free.

      XML needs to be updated to allow binary encoding. The open-source high-performance parser/generator library at the link demonstrates the performance gain.

    5. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by starm_ · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have to agree with that. Last year I did a work term in a department where they where converting their software to XML and SOAP. When I came in they asked me to learn XML and SOAP (c++'s gsoap and java soap). We were making and converting distributed applications. Usually with a user client made in java and a c++ server (for performance). After a few weeks into my work term I was still in the processes of working on one of these SOAP servers when finally one group finished converting one of our main product. When they went to test it they discovered it was too slow to use. When the user on the client side wanted to visualize the results of its database query it took 40 seconds to serialize sent thrue the network (fiber optic network, top of the line computers) deserialize and display the results. It took only 2 seconds with RPC.

      They just didn't know how they could explain this to the users. They could not see that the users would understand that in the new and improved program that looks exactly the same as the old one, when they clicked the "visualize" button they had to wait 40 seconds.

      Also XML is very cryptic. Has anyone tried to do XSLT? my god I had to do it once and it made a simple task very difficult. They are many more efficient and intuitive way of visualizing data than XML. XML makes development time very long and costly for some tasks

      I think that XML has its uses though. Like for making standard word processor documents, and things like that. But it shouldn't be used everywhere like some people seem to think.

    6. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by Boing · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Doe, John 1234567 12/1/2001

      took 31 bytes, while it's XML companion (using short, simple tags) took 96 bytes.

      Uh huh. Now let me ask you, is that record space-delimited? Comma-delimited? Fixed-width [shudder]? If it's fixed width, and the first name is fixed at four characters, is the person's name "John" or "John-Paul"?

      31 bytes for your record, and 96 for equivalent XML... but how many extra bytes were spent on code to manage your particular flavor of data? How much time was spent in development of that code? How does that time (and associated cost) compare to the extra millisecond/record required to transmit and process the XML data?

      XML is standard. It can fit almost any type of data (though binary data is not currently the most effective thing in the world, but it can be incorporated). Since MS is integrating XML into all of their products, we won't have to worry about many people who don't have a good XML library installed on their systems. So instead of 50 programs with their own (limited and likely buggy) data formatting subsystems, we'll have 50 programs that each call one library on disk, in a standard, robust system with enough exposure to squash the show-stopping bugs.

      XML will always be slower.

      Depends on how you look at it. If the aforementioned widely-available XML parser gets enough of a beating, it will be optimized like you wouldn't believe. Yes, two data processors (one XML, one markupless) with equal amounts of work spent on them will perform in favor of the simpler format... but XML's simplicity and universality will make it so that the XML parsers will have more eyes.

      The same philosophy is why the well known open-source programs (linux, apache, etc) are functional and stable as hell:

      Wide use + Openness = Greatness.

    7. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by Ed+Avis · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you know your XML will conform to a particular DTD, FleXML can be used to generate a very fast parser for it in the style of lex/yacc. You don't have to mess with all that slow DOM or SAX stuff if you're concerned about speed. It may still be a resource hog compared with binary file formats and protocols but not nearly as sucky as often seen (my own code included).

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    8. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by Not+The+Real+Me · · Score: 2, Insightful

      XML, when it comes to data and databases, is nothing more than a beefed-up alternative to CSV (comma separated values).

    9. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by helix_r · · Score: 2, Insightful


      "Doe, John 1234567 12/1/2001 "

      If you think about it that is a useless piece of information without lots and lots of context surrounding it.

      * What is Doe?
      * What is " John"?
      * What is 1234567
      * 12/1/2001 looks like a date. Is it Dec 1 or Jan 12?
      * How do I know if this record is complete?
      * Is my field separator a " " or ","?

      Problem: The year is 2023, we now use format "x" in our records, you need to onvert all records to format "x" -- there are 233 different types of records. 7,220,134 records need to be translated in 2 weeks. Which formats will be the easiest to convert??

      XML allows you to beat the above problems by being a somewhat self-describing format. For a few extra bytes you get a lot more functionality, interoperability and future-proof-ness

    10. Re:The main issue with XML is performance by RetroGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      doesn't matter what the current/target system is

      Well yes it does matter. It must be .NET

      With XML, I can create it in DOS version 1 using an 8bit utility, put it onto a diskette and have a user read it on a Linux, Windows, OS/2, ... system.

      --

      - - - - - - - - - - -
      I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
  6. XML... by the+man+with+the+pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think one of the main problems with the embedding of XML architecture into office productivity software is unfortunately the end user. I mean, how long have programmes like MS Word had "document properties" contained in them, and how many people are actually using them? I'm currently working on a project to retrieve documents accross a company's backed-up data from the past 10 years, and there is very very little metadata available for us to do any searching on. Unless the embedded XML contained within office suites is brought more "to the fore" and in the face of users, instead of being a behind the scenes 'option', people just are not going to use it

    --
    The linux hacker
    1. Re:XML... by Zo0ok · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I saw a Microsoft demo that was supposed to show how powerful and useful it could be to insert XML-tags into Word documents. The idea was to fill the Word document with useful information (just fill in the users name here, and all information about the user is automatically inserted, now how good isnt that?). MS calls this Smart Document.

      So, I took a look in the XML-file that the connected to the Word document to make it smart. I wasnt very impressed (but fairly amused) when I saw that the XML-file was like 30 lines of blahah, and in the middle of it I found a reference to a .dll-file.

      If I need to write a .dll-file that conforms to Word interfaces (that MS of course will have debugged and patched in about two years, and then they'll obsolete it by releasing a new version), then writing something that GENERATES a Word document and gives it to the user makes much more sense to me...

      And in any case, XML has nothing to do with it... they could of course have created "tag" functionality in Word without using XML.

  7. where are the open source XML repositories by acomj · · Score: 4, Interesting


    XML would work better if there were consistent DTDs for tagging information that everyone would use. There should be an open database of these DTDS.

    I was looking for a simple one to tag photos with. Couldn't find it, made my own. Is there a repository of these DTDs out there?

    1. Re:where are the open source XML repositories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Maybe here?

    2. Re:where are the open source XML repositories by Arrgh · · Score: 2, Informative
      What's the matter, is your Google finger broken?

      Let's see... A <digital> element contains zero or more <frame>s, each of which can contain an <image> with a URL.

    3. Re:where are the open source XML repositories by GeckoX · · Score: 5, Informative

      You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about, and of course have been modded +3 insightful. Good one mods.

      XML is extensible by it's very nature. By itself, an xml file is just that, an xml file, it means absolutely NOTHING without context and definition.

      This is what DTD's do. They don't limit xml in any way, rather they describe a particular use of xml. For example: SVG, MathML and XHTML are all languages that use xml. Each one of these languages have a DTD that define the format for a valid xml document FOR THAT LANGUAGE.

      Just because a DTD for SVG exists doesn't mean that anything at all has changed with xml itself.

      Next, XSLT is a technology with a very specific purpose, simply put: To take an xml file as input and create a new xml file for output based on the rules written into the transform.

      So, with all of that said, there is absolutely NO reason why there shouldn't be a DTD repository, and again, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a PhotoAlbum DTD in that repository. What problems would this cause? None. What benefits could be observed? Instead of everyone needing an xml document to describe photo albums rolling their own format, people might just reuse a standard DTD to do so. And application writers just might too. And lo and behold, Application X on platform Y might be able, with no work involved, open Album AA Created by Application BB on platform CC.

      Getting some of the big picture?

      --
      No Comment.
  8. XML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... a floor wax and a desert topping...

  9. milaf, if you could expand a bit... by Randolpho · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does the book discuss the pros and cons of XML? Such as, when is it a good idea to use XML? When would a CSV, INI, or other structured text document be a better choice than XML?

    These are issues that need to be solved first, before one creates an effective XML structure. Does the book address them?

    --
    "Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
    -Marilyn Manson
    1. Re:milaf, if you could expand a bit... by LetterJ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, most Slashdot reviews are little more than book reports with pretty much no analysis. They end up just listing what the chapters contain.

      Incidentally, one of the main reasons to choose XML over either CSV or INI is that both of those formats are pretty driven by rigid "column" type structures. In most INI files there's only room for pairs of names and single values. In CSV records are one row with a set number of fields.

      XML lets you expand the children fully and represent more complex data. For instance, a classical CSV file with address information for customers would have columns for street address, city and then start to have problems when you start having columns for State (when you actually consider the world outside the US), postal codes, etc. If this is in XML, you can have your schema be more flexible and say that each <customer> contains a <shippingaddress> element which can contain either a <state> or a <province> or neither.

      In other words, you can use trees to represent data instead of flat rows. I'm not saying that it's the be-all and end-all that the evangelists say it is. There are still lots of places that simpler text files and other data storage formats are better, but XML can be useful.

  10. XML Limited in at least one regard. by AllergicToMilk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the things that I have found limiting about XML is that it is inheirently hierarchical. Real "things" can be categorized many ways. Hierarchical classification systems (such as our modern file systems) work poorly to classify a broad scope of information. Thus, some of the new development in the FS in Longhorn and also some I've head about, but can't remember, for Linux.

    --
    There are only 6,863,795,529 types of people in the world.
  11. Hmm.. by jpsowin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wouldn't this worth your while?

    Wouldn't this what my while???
    All your base are belong to us!

    (huge eye roll)

  12. Here's the list of 50 by FearUncertaintyDoubt · · Score: 5, Informative
    Syntax:
    Include an XML Declaration
    Mark Up with ASCII if Possible
    Stay with XML 1.0
    Use Standard Entity References
    Comment DTDs Liberally
    Name Elements with Camel Case
    Parameterize DTDs
    Modularize DTDs
    Distinguish Text from Markup
    White Space Matters

    Structure:
    Make Structure Explicit through Markup
    Store Metadata in Attributes
    Remember Mixed Content
    Allow All XML Syntax
    Build on Top of Structures, Not Syntax
    Prefer URLs to Unparsed Entities and Notations
    Use Processing Instructions for Process-Specific Content
    Include All Information in the Instance Document
    Encode Binary Data Using Quoted Printable and/or Base64
    Use Namespaces for Modularity and Extensibility
    Rely on Namespace URIs, Not Prefixes
    Don't Use Namespace Prefixes in Element Content and Attribute Values
    Reuse XHTML for Generic Narrative Content
    Choose the Right Schema Language for the Job
    Pretend There's No Such Thing as the PSVI
    Version Documents, Schemas, and Stylesheets
    Mark Up According to Meaning

    Semantics:
    Use Only What You Need
    Always Use a Parser
    Layer Functionality
    Program to Standard APIs
    Choose SAX for Computer Efficiency
    Choose DOM for Standards Support
    Read the Complete DTD
    Navigate with XPath
    Serialize XML with XML
    Validate Inside Your Program with Schemas

    Implementation:
    Write in Unicode
    Parameterize XSLT Stylesheets
    Avoid Vendor Lock-In
    Hang On to Your Relational Database
    Document Namespaces with RDDL
    Preprocess XSLT on the Server Side
    Serve XML+CSS to the Client
    Pick the Correct MIME Media Type
    Tidy Up Your HTML
    Catalog Common Resources
    Verify Documents with XML Digital Signatures
    Hide Confidential Data with XML Encryption
    Compress if Space Is a Problem

  13. My experience with XML by Valar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It has been my experience with XML that it is like a lot of other things in development: the good developers understand it immediately and have native intuition towards best practices. The bad developers never really get it and spend their time reproducing tricks they saw in a cookbook. That's good and fine until you need something that doesn't quite fit into categories a, b or c. Another example of this is how high school and university data structure/algorithm classes never spend any time of development of new data structures that exactly meet the problem specification. Instead they lay out half a dozen types of linear lists, a couple of trees, and some hashing functions and say, "Well, you can glue just about anything together from this." Perhaps this book takes what is, IMHO, the better approach-- laying out the tools and politely explaining what the implication of each is, rather than attempting to list out pages of cute examples of what each can do.

  14. Server load could be at the root of XML's problems by mrgoatCEO · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know that as a student maintaining a website I am in the minority of XML users, but I the main thing that stops me from moving my site (small-scale though it may be) over to using more XML is sheer server load. The fact of the matter is that we still don't have true low-bandwidth database solutions, and until this changes, I doubt that much will be done with technologies like XML (at least on smaller, non-corporate sites) no matter how much potential they have.

    --
    --Goat
    CEO, Goat Software
    Goatblog
  15. 5 years in the business... by pong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... and it is starting to dawn on me that trends like pervasive XMLization is going to haunt us for ever. The combination of business-minded consultants that push a market to create demand for themselves and a huge number of clueless but enthusiastic developers that will jump on any new idea and push it where it doesn't want to go unsurprisingly leads to this kind of instability.

    I hate XML with a passion. Let me present you with three examples

    1) Programming languages based on XML.

    Yes, it is true. Perverted minds, somewhere on this planet, actually seems to think that this is a neat idea! Since their initial conception the pivotal point of programming languages have been to raise the level of programming. To move from the computers domain to the human domain - to make it more intuitive an natural for a human being to program a computer. With these new XML-based languages we are moving a step backwards, because truely the only benefit of XML in this context is that it is easier for computers to parse, while it is certainly harder for humans.

    2) XSLT

    Have you tried it? I rest my case.

    3) SOAP

    Okay, initially this actually seemed like a good idea to me, but having thought about it, I really think it sucks. Okay, so it is easier to implement SOAP for a particular platform or programming language, but a wire protocol is like a compiler or an OS kernel in a certain sense - it is okay that it is very hard to write, as long as it is stable and high performance, because it is such a central component.

  16. X is for the Xtensions, M is for the Metadata... by jefu · · Score: 4, Interesting
    and L is for the Laughter it brings us.

    I have not read this book, but it sounds interesting already.

    XML is an interesting technology that has the potential for changing the way we use technology in all kinds of weird and wonderful ways. (And in a few ways that may not be so wonderful.) But using XML correctly is tough. I've written and discarded more DTDs and schemata than I care to admit because they were seriously flawed. Getting it right is important and very, very hard.

    XML looks simple, and in some ways it is. But in so many other ways it is not simple at all - in large part because it gives us a tool to approach some very hard problems. And hard problems, often even when expressed in the simplest way around, tend to stay hard. (Calculus makes saying some things simple, for example, but understanding those things still takes work and insight.)

    I will be taking a good look at this book in the near future to see what it has to say. And I'd urge those who dislike XML to do the same. And finally, even those who like XML need to think hard about how to use it well, so perhaps this would be a good read for them too.

  17. What are you talking about? by mellon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    XML is just text! If the XML parser is slow, write a faster one! Figure out where the bottlenecks are! Don't give me this XML is slow crap. This is slashdot - you're supposed to be a geek. If you don't like XML, fine, but come up with a geeky reason not to like it, not some problem whose solution is just to roll up your sleeves and do some hacking!

    Oy! :')

    1. Re:What are you talking about? by nat5an · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Okay, fine XML isn't slow by nature. But it's a generalized solution. Not every set of data needs to be stored in a general tree, so putting every set into one will often create a lot of extra work. The benefit of XML is its portablity, and the price is the performance hit you take from packing and unpacking all that data.

      --
      Head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums...
    2. Re:What are you talking about? by micromoog · · Score: 3, Insightful
      How about the fact that, by definition, it takes something like 10 times as much information to store/transfer data in XML than in a native binary format?

      Having a huge amount of metadata surround every piece of data is not always a good thing. XML is slow, parser issues notwithstanding.

    3. Re:What are you talking about? by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      parsing any text involves character-by-character analysis. No amount of geekdom code rewriting can change that. If an XML file is 3-times as large as a CSV file, it will take 3-times as long to parse. And both will be magnitudes slower than a binary record.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    4. Re:What are you talking about? by Anml4ixoye · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You bring up some really good points. The reason that you hear a lot of "XML is slow" is because of the usage of XPATH. To use XPATH expressions, most implementations parse the entire XML document into memory.

      I suppose you *could* write a custom parser. If your structure is well-defined, and not subject to a lot of changes, you could significantly increase performance that way. The other option is to parse the document once, get out what you need to get out into smaller chunks, dump the larger document, and only work off the smaller chunks.

      Looks like TMTOWTDI is not just for Perl

    5. Re:What are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Have you ever tried storing a picture in it?

      <pixelrow>
      <pixel>
      <value channel="red" level="0.023"/>
      <value channel="blue" level="0.22"/>
      <value channel="green" level="0.5"/>
      </pixel>

      ...

      </pixelrow>

      ...

      :)

    6. Re:What are you talking about? by helix_r · · Score: 2, Informative

      Have you ever tried storing a picture in it?


      Actually, yes.

      Its called SVG, it is a very nice way to represent graphics.

    7. Re:What are you talking about? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      wow, wait a minute... you want a geeky reason not to use it... well, how about rolling your own binary parsing data format is a) much, much more difficult for others to understand, b) way faster, c) far more bandwidth efficient.

      there you go - 3 classic geek reasons to do something the hard way instead of the standard, ordinary, easy but OK for mortals way.

      Incidentally, XML really is slow. Sure it looks nice, is easy to understand, easy to create with the simplest of text editors, interoperable, and an industry standard. But it is still a technology that doesn't cut it when you need your data stored in small, fast blobs. A case in point - my previous company used XML everywhere (it was cool, after all), but after a while performance (when sclaed to many users) became an issue. Rewriting the XML-handling object to use a binary format made things much, much, much faster. The XML blobs were then only used for the browser front end, and for debugging on a developer machine. XML is good, but don't ever pretend its all things to all men, in all cases. It isn't. Its slow.

    8. Re:What are you talking about? by mellon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is by no means assured. When you store data in a binary format, you generally have to have code to deal with byte-swapping and other format conversions. Also, generally speaking, the limitation on character parsing is memory bandwidth - if you are using a modern CPU, it is going to spend most of its time waiting for bits to come out of memory, and it doesn't care whether they're an ASCII (or utf8) byte stream or binary words.

      Also, a lot of stuff that goes around in packets is free-form text anyway, not binary data. So in the case where you're just passing numbers around, yes, XML is going to be a bit slower simply because there are more bits to pull out of the buffer. But in the case of plain text, the difference is probably not going to be very significant. In cases where it is significant, you probably don't want to use XML.

      You are right that XML is not a panacea - I wouldn't use it for every application. I think a lot of the anti-xml rhetoric we hear is because so many people do use it for the wrong applications, and then other people see what they've done and start retching.

      A couple more points - XML::Twig allows you to parse XML in PERL without sucking the whole file in at once. Also, the article to which I was replying was talking about SQLXML, which I presume is already plain text. It's tough to imagine that XML is really going to make that significantly slower - if it is, it's probably because of a poor implementation, not increased data size.

    9. Re:What are you talking about? by GlassHeart · · Score: 2, Insightful
      my previous company used XML everywhere (it was cool, after all), but after a while performance (when sclaed to many users) became an issue. Rewriting the XML-handling object to use a binary format made things much, much, much faster. The XML blobs were then only used for the browser front end, and for debugging on a developer machine.

      No, your company did the exact right thing in choosing XML. When the nascent system is still being actively debugged, you made the process much easier because XML is human readable. As you begin to scale up its use, you proved a performance problem and relied on the modularity of the code to simply replace the XML code with efficient binary formats. If you had not seen a performance problem (perhaps the bottleneck is elsewhere and inevitable anyway), then presumably you'd leave the XML code alone.

      You started with a general solution, and then optimized as necessary. I consider this an example of a job well done.

  18. i second.. by Hooya · · Score: 3, Informative

    i use XML for a lot of things and it's been quite decent. but on the other hand, we're using dual pentium IIIs for trivial stuff that was running fine on a PII with c/c++ app without XML.

    the fact is that XML is just marshelling and unmarshelling of all computational data to and from strings thereby negating fast numerical performance that a CPU inherently has. you want to add two numbers? create a string representation, pass it around thru a bunch of parsers/transformers as strings then finally convert it back to the number it really is then add then convert it back to string for passing it around all over again... what a waste.

  19. speek kills... by Broadcatch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...resource hogs.

    While I'm not an XML zealot, I like the clarity it can bring to many domains of practice. Regarding the performance hit, get a faster computer! If you don't have a fast enough one yet, wait a year.

    Lisp was shunned in the past primarily for speed reasons, too. Now the main reason many don't like Lisp is because they don't understand advanced software engineering concepts and write poor Lisp code.

    --

    The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech.
    -- Molly Ivins

  20. W3C by sielwolf · · Score: 4, Informative

    Browse the Technical Reports, Recommendations and Proposed Recommendations at W3C as there are a lot of DTDs and Schemas there. I found a DTD for generic simulation representation there. There's quite a bit if you take the time to look.

    --
    What is music when you despise all sound?
  21. Sick of XML? Try YAML. by Chromodromic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Reading through the posts on this board, I tend to agree with the criticisms about XML. It's a big dreadnought of a specification when, in most cases, a nice light corsair or even single-seat fighter would do the trick. Still, I would normally be inclined to say of XML what is said about Democracy: it's the worst system out there, except for all the others.

    Then I found YAML. Long and short, YAML is very lightweight, eminently readable, easy to use (parsers exist in multiple languages) and a pleasure all kinds of projects that require data serialization. Where XML branches off into other types of uses, like XSL programming, YAML doesn't really compete. I find this to be a strength, actually, because once you've used YAML and seen it in action, XSL seems like a big, fat add-on. But for those that rely on XSL and other things, YAML won't do the trick.

    But if all you need is data serialization in a compact, easy-to-read, easy-to-use package -- and this, in my opinion, is by far what XML is most used for -- then YAML is great. Give it a shot.

    As for XML. I used to hate it with a passion. Now I still hate it, but I'm less passionate. The creators of XML are ambitious people, and they tried to do something in that spirit. It works, basically and XML doesn't deserve *all* the bad press it gets.

    --
    Chr0m0Dr0m!C
    1. Re:Sick of XML? Try YAML. by oren · · Score: 2, Interesting

      XML and YAML have different "sweet spot" domains, though you can apply both technologies outside their intended domain.

      XML is great for "documents" - text documents, that is. XML does an admirable job seperating "content" from "markup" which can be used to drive "presentation". It really is a big improvement over SGML. Things like DocBook, and CSS stylesheets, make XML the choice for writing documents.

      YAML is great for "data" - data structures, that is. YAML directly maps to common application data structures, so the result is more readable for both humans and computer programs. It is still very new, but is gaining acceptance, and IMVHO is the way to serialize data.

      Sure you can use XML for data (lots of people do) and YAML for documents (the YAML spec is written as a YAML document, just as a test of how far this can be pushed). But in both cases you are using the technologies outside their intended domain and suffer the consequences. It is all about using the right tool for the job.

      XML was never designed for data, it is an "Extensible Mark Up Language" for crying out loud. Promoting it as the end-all be-all solution for serializing data is strange - it is like promoting the use of the C++ programming language for writing scripts (it is all "programs", right?).

      In contrast, YAML Ain't Markup Language - it was designed specifically for data, and is very good at what it does. Just as the world has mostly come to accept that "system languages" and "scripting languages" are different animals, it will discover that "document formats" and "data formats" are different animals - hence the need for both XML and YAML.

      (I'm one of the YAML spec authors, so the above reflects about 33% of the "official YAML position" :-)

  22. One way to improve it. Don't use it. by wdavies · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Ok, maybe I'm missing a point, but the next time I see an XML file like this...
    <RECORD NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = "..">
    <RECORD NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = "..">
    <RECORD NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = "..">
    <RECORD NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = "..">
    instead of this
    ..\t..\t..
    ..\t..\t..
    ..\t..\t..
    I am going to go nuts. Yes, XML is an improvement for truly hierarchical or repeating data, but efficient it isn't and a pain in the butt to use with AWK or anyone of a million Unix utilities. The one downside I have on ESR's Art of Unix is that while espousing how clean is with pipes and text, he then starts waxing lyrical about XML... Winton
    1. Re:One way to improve it. Don't use it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The whole idea with XML is that it will catch the error when a user or script writes "RECROD" in one place, or forget a space. Your AWK script will likely just crash without an explanation or miss a record if the user e.g. forgets the carriage return between lines.

      And just assume that six months after releasing your program you realize it would be very useful with an "OCCUPATION" field to. What do you do now? Maintain a separate collection of databases for each generation of your software?

      The XML-database would be guaranteed to be backwards comaptible, in contrast to your simple solution.

      The reason why XML is good in "the real world" is quite simple: Programmer time is expensive. Testing is expensive. Compatibility between versions is important, but expensive to maintain. Storage is cheap. CPU-power is cheap.

    2. Re:One way to improve it. Don't use it. by JohnnyCannuk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, duh, if you are using XML for non-heirarchical data, then your using it wrong.

      On the other hand if it looked more like this:

      &ltRecords&gt
      &ltRECORD id = .. NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = ".."/&gt
      &ltRECORD id = .. NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = ".."/&gt
      &ltRECORD id = .. NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = ".."/&gt
      &ltRECORD id = .. NAME=".." ADDRESS=".." AGE = ".."/&gt
      &lt/Records&gt

      and if the tag was nested in something else, then xml is appropriate.

      At the risk of sounding trite "right tool for the job".

      I am currently working on an EDI application where the highly structured and hierarchical nature of our data makes it perfect for xml. Add in good tools and searching capabilities (Like XSLT for transforming the raw structure to something else or XPath for searching it) and you have a very powerful data exchange that is platform and language neutral.

      But just as you wouldn't use VB to program kernel modules or device drivers, you wouldn't (and shouldn't) use XML for everything, just because it's cool and new.

      I am always amazed by the XML luddites on /. The same folks who insist that obscure languages like Haskell, Dylan or Eifel are "better than ${your language here} why doesn't anybody else use it". will still insist on transmitting and storing data in language and platform dependant binary files or in non-self describing data structures such as:

      ..\t..\t..

      ..\t..\t..

      ..\t..\t..

      As for it not being efficient, well that really depends on what you mean by efficient. If you mean that it is slow to read, then you have chosen the wrong parser. Not a fault of the markup itself. Perhaps the design of your document is inefficient. But If you want a way to efficiently exchange self-describing data between applications written on different plaforms in different languages, then use XML.

      Or come up with something better.

      --
      Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
  23. ID and IDREF, meet the previous poster by holygoat · · Score: 2, Informative

    e.g. IBM's take.

    You can link between XML entities quite easily.

    Also consider that RDF, which describes directed graphs, is quite easily expressed in XML; there's nothing to say that you can't describe a graph and reference actual elements with IDREFs. I don't think you've really thought about this.

  24. XML is just tagged s-lists. by BrittPark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    XML is highly overrated and generally over-used. Admittedly XML + CSS is better than html, but beyond that its only reasonable use is as a generalized syntax for configuration files, and as such does a good job, or at least I've had success using it that way in the past. Many (if not most) of its other uses are just poor program design. Soap is an extremely silly idea. Why use XML for a marshalling syntax for RPC? It's slower, bulkier, and just a bad choice in comparison to a binary marshalling mechanism. Now as a syntax for an RPC's IDL XML makes a lot of sense, but not as a transport.

    Glad to get that off my chest. I have a bitter history with XML. I was the first person at my former company to bring XML in as a uniform configuration file format for our product, but then found myself a couple of years later forced into adding XML specific features to the filesystem that was the core of our company's product. I spent a week thinking about the idea, and concluded that it was a bad one. Thus followed a long (and fruitless) battle with management to scratch the plan. The end result was a technically nifty but useless set of features. The work remains unreleased for lack of customer interest. At least I get a bit of "I told you so." pleasure.

  25. more reviews of this book by zontroll · · Score: 3, Informative

    VeryGeekyBooks has more reviews of this book.

  26. He missed a couple, IMHO by alispguru · · Score: 2, Informative

    And one of them is Just Plain Wrong, also IMHO.

    Here are two heuristics for good XML design that I dearly wish more people would take to heart:

    1. If processing any text field requires parsing, Something Is Wrong, and you probably need to break it apart into more elements/subelements.

    The only exceptions to this rule are fields that are numbers, or maybe date/time stamps that adhere to ISO standards.

    2. If you're using attributes, You'll Wish You Hadn't In The Future.

    Attributes are supposed to be the way XML seperates metadata from data. The problem with them is that they are also "leaves" of the XML tree, and intended to be simple, flat text. If you ever need more complex structure in attribute metadata, you're screwed - you must either violate rule 1 above, or move the data out into elements, totally breaking your old structure. Just don't use them, OK?

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
  27. Sure: by rodentia · · Score: 5, Informative
    <?xml version="1.0" ?>
    <!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-SVG-20010904/DTD/sv g10.dtd">

    <svg>
    <line x1="50" y1="50" x2="300" y2="300"
    style="stroke:#FF0000;
    stroke-width:4;stroke-opacity:0.3;"/>
    <line x1="50" y1="100" x2="300" y2="350"
    style="stroke:#FF0000;
    stroke-width:4;stroke-opacity:1;"/>
    </svg>>
    --
    illegitimii non ingravare
  28. piffle by rodentia · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bandwidth is an order of magnitude more limiting than tree parsing, egg. That and the facilities the tool vendors decorate their stuff with. Of course its not free, what is?

    SQLXML and most other value-adds are bull. Your business objects should optimize the hell out of their DB access and return XML. XML is messaging and presentation tier glue. Read the book.

    --
    illegitimii non ingravare
  29. Re:apache has a project called Xindice by janbjurstrom · · Score: 2, Informative

    True, Xindice (Apache license, has reached version 1.0) looks good (I've no experience with it), but some of the original developers (Tom Bradford - dbXML, see below, and Kimbro Staken - Syncato, also below) of the source donated to Apache think they (Apache) haven't made the most of it. I don't know if this is true, and I don't know nor have any connections with either Bradford or Staken, but they seem like competent developers; they certainly churn out code - positive sign, right?

    There is choice :): Check out Kimbro Staken's weblog Inspirational Technology (who also develops Syncato, an XML database weblog system using Berkeley DB XML.):

    Consider Berkeley DB XML (currently at v1.1.0). Built on Berkeley DB and identically licensed (open source, free for non-commercial/development use, etc.); tons of APIs - can't get hold of the link but one of the developers (at least I think so) maintains a weblog of 'all' things Berkeley DB XML. Googleit.

    Bradford recently released dbXML under GPL (commercial licenses available should you need it), there's a v2.0 beta available at the site.

    Another native XML database is eXist, at version 0.9.2, java-based, LGPL licensed, I've only glanced at it, looks alright though I'm not the guy to say..

    Then there're several commercial alternatives - X-Hive, Birdstep, Virtuoso, et al. - but this is Slashdot so..
    Well, someone called Ron Bourret has compiled a full-bodied overview of XML databases, and have a big list of XML/DB links too (some link-rot). Goto.

    --
    668.5
  30. XML is very fast by Doug+Merritt · · Score: 4, Interesting
    XML is heavy weight ... ...see a huge drop in performance. This is due to the fact that parsing XML blows and eats up copious amounts of CPU and memory.

    That's because everyone uses slow XML parsers. Some years ago at one of the then-top 5 web portals I was unhappy with the standard SAX/DOM parser in use; it was ridiculously slow (and buggy).

    So I wrote a new one. Parsing XML became one hundred fold faster! I timed it quite carefully.

    Other people in this thread are saying "of course XML is slower than binary formats, it's 3 times bigger." But a factor of 3 in performance is nothing, considering some of the advantages.

    A slowdown of 100, on the other hand, is absurd.

    I don't know why people don't rebel against this and make faster XML parsers the widely-used ones; for whatever reason, apparently everyone continues using slow parsers.

    At any rate, no, XML is not slow. It's just a simple, easy to parse format, for which IBM and others have written very, very slow parsers.

    And everyone just assumes that it has to be slow. Sheesh, why should an XML parser be slower than a C++ compiler??? Come on.

    --
    Professional Wild-Eyed Visionary
  31. Re:L is for Lousy... by gbrayut · · Score: 2, Insightful

    >And config files, simpler parsing like 'property=value' is easier and faster.
    A Gnome config file that has 4 tags, and 1 tag had 80! attributes is just stupid. Yet this is how people use XML.

    There are many cases where a simple property=value is much better then full scale XML, but when used correctly XML can be much more efficient.

    Take your everyday INI file, containing simple property=value strings. Sure it works, but all those properties have other information as well such as a description, data type, valid parameters, default settings... you get the point.

    Try adding that into an INI file and you will end up with a mess. XML can be used to incorporate all the additional information into one file and in doing so program configuration user interfaces can be dynamically created.

    Most programs add and remove features with every release and it is convenient to store settings in an XML file so that interfaces to those settings can be dynamically generated. Simply populate a list box or table with the name/value property pairs, have a text area display the description for a selected property, and have input data validated to the corresponding input parameters and data type.

    It might take longer to plan, but if implemented correctly it can save time and confusion. In the end, it will be a larger file, but if done correctly that data actually means something!

  32. Re:Why should XML be text? by Trejkaz · · Score: 2, Informative

    From XML 1.0:

    The design goals for XML are:

    1. XML shall be straightforwardly usable over the Internet.
    2. XML shall support a wide variety of applications.
    3. XML shall be compatible with SGML.
    4. It shall be easy to write programs which process XML documents.
    5. The number of optional features in XML is to be kept to the absolute minimum, ideally zero.
    6. XML documents should be human-legible and reasonably clear.
    7. The XML design should be prepared quickly.
    8. The design of XML shall be formal and concise.
    9. XML documents shall be easy to create.
    10. Terseness in XML markup is of minimal importance.

    I believe you're questioning point 5 while bitching about point 10.

    If you want a binary tree representation, check out ASN.1. It has commonly been used as a binary interchange format for the same sort of data, and XML can be mapped to ASN.1 using a schema and a bit of patience.

    --
    Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
  33. Several chapters are online by elharo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Nice review. Thanks! It's interesting how many of the comments here relate directly to chapters in the book. For instance, there's a lot of concern about XML's perceived verboseness. This is addressed directly in Item 50, Compress if space is a problem. This chapter and ten others are online at http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/effectivexml/ . Check it out.

  34. Re:Why do I have the feeling... by elharo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're right about that. It doesn't. Not all technologies that are isomorphic to each other are equally useful, any more than all Turing complete programming languages are the same. The representation matters, and the XML representation has proven more useful and accessible than the S-expression representation.

    I'm not fully convinced that S-expressions are isomorphic to XML either. The proper handling of Unicode and non-English, non-ASCII text presented in multiple encodings is a big advantage of XML compared to S-expressions. I suppose something like this could theoretically be added to S-expressions, but has it been?