Lion And Lamb Project Lambasts Videogames

Thanks to Gamasutra for pointing to the Lion And Lamb Project's new listing of their 'Dirty Dozen for 2004', as the organization, which "works to reduce the marketing of violent toys, games and entertainment to children", singles out Rockstar's Manhunt for its 'Pushing The Envelope' pick, despite the Mature rating, mentioning that "69 percent of underage teenagers were able to buy M-rated games at retail stores." Interestingly, Sony's Teen-rated Jak II is also criticized under the heading 'Deceptive Branding: The Sequel That Isn't', with the comments: "The original game in this series - Jak and Daxter - was rated E for Everyone... parents who feel comfortable with this 'brand' are in for a rude surprise if they purchase the sequel for their young children." However, the project's Top 20 non-violent toys also include videogames, including Dance Dance Revolution and Zoo Tycoon.

Comments

Printing that out as my Christmas list!

[heldlikesound]

Thanks for the tips!

the real problems here

[self assembled struc]

First, Rockstar games clearly says it's M for Mature.

Its up to the stores AND THE PARENTS to make sure that kids not old enough to partake in this entertainment are not. The game companies should no have to censor themselves anymore than CLEARLY labelling the box and the package. This is a problem not with Rockstar, but with society.

Second, from that list of "approved games" can we say MASSIVELY BORING? Who the hell EVERY enjoyed playing Math Attack over Missle Command?

Re:the real problems here

[Txiasaeia]

Here's a thought: why is there a difference between an adult video store and a local game store? Maybe they should have a "back room" at the local EB where they carry the mature games -- and not let kids back! This might seem extreme, but employees at EB or Babbages are getting paid minimum wage, and how many teenagers go video game shopping with their teenagers, really?

Re:the real problems here

[Skyfire]

The problem with doing that is that a video game rating of M is basically equivalent to a rating of R, and in video stores, R movies are featured in the main parts of video stores, whereas the video equivialent of NC-17 movies which are usually put in the back of video stores a rated AO (Adults Only). My point is that if you put M games in a special section, you have to put R movies in a special section too.

Re:the real problems here

[exick]

You most certainly do not. Film ratings and video game ratings are different. There doesn't have to be exact age correlation between the two rating systems. The Lion and Lamb project seem to be searching for the same correlation. They complain that a game that's rated T was made using a movie that's rated R, but R-rated movies are accessible by teenagers with (13-16) or without (17-19) parents, so how is it wrong? If you use movie, TV, and/or video game ratings as a concrete way of deciding whether some piece of media is appropriate for your child, then you're a miserable excuse for a parent anyway.

Re:the real problems here

[PainKilleR-CE]

There doesn't have to be exact age correlation between the two rating systems.

But there is, as R = 17+ and M = 17+. There isn't always an exact correlation within a franchise, though.

The Lion and Lamb project seem to be searching for the same correlation. They complain that a game that's rated T was made using a movie that's rated R, but R-rated movies are accessible by teenagers with (13-16) or without (17-19) parents, so how is it wrong? If you use movie, TV, and/or video game ratings as a concrete way of deciding whether some piece of media is appropriate for your child, then you're a miserable excuse for a parent anyway.

Obviously, there's either a difference between the way the ratings are decided, or there's a difference between the content of the game vs. the movie. I tend to think that the middle ground on game ratings and movie ratings tends to be a bit muddy (ie the PG/PG-13 area where sometimes a PG-13 seems like it should be R or sometimes PG vs. the T/E ratings in games where sometimes an E seems like it should be T and vice versa, and maybe, once in a while, a T seems like it might've been an M), but whenever a film-maker or game developer has discussed changing their piece for a lower rating there have always been very specific items that made the difference to the people deciding the ratings.

Of course, I agree that ratings shouldn't be the only decision maker in this, but in the end I think they're judging this on the ratings more than the product anyway. WTF does the back of a TMNT figure have to do with the game anyway? Hell, it's been well over a decade since I played with a TMNT figure anyway, and they didn't do anything unless you made them do it.

Re:Address the problem

[gmhowell]

Many of 'these groups' fight at all levels. One of the reasons Blockbuster doesn't carry NC17 movies is because of lobbying by similar groups.

The site questions the rating systems for games and movies. They wonder if a game with 'sniper mode' should be marketed to kids, and not have an 'M' rating. They question why 'Whale Rider' should be PG13 instead of PG.

What they should be doing is saying to parents: check out the game/movie your kids want you to buy. Talk to people you know (not anonymous busybodies on the internet) for their opinions.

Positive Gaming

[jjhlk]

I found this interesting while I was working on a research project for school. According to the Interactive Digital Software Association, only 3.1% of those who buy computer games are under 18 years old, or 8.4% for video games. Most parents - 65% - think that these games are a positive part of their children's lives. And the most stunning stat is 96% of parents sometimes pay attention to the content of their child's games. These stats come from a pdf hosted by the Entertainment Software Association, but there is probably a similar version of the IDSA's site.

The situtation sounds generally positive to me, despite how many "kids" can supposedly buy violent games.

list is of value (to busy/lazy anyway)

[Anonymous Coward]

of course any list like this seems silly, but the listing of JakII as not being in line with the first is a good point. Sure the blame is on the doofus who buys an inappropriate game for his kid, but assuming II is a continuation of I is an easy thing to do.

I think the main targets of these lists is "grandma" who is looking for a gift for the kiddies.

Of course, as a youth I would have much more preferred a "toys/games that aren't totally lame or out of date" list

Of course, the responsibility is shared.

[Sheetrock]

Parents picking up Grand Theft Auto or Doom for their children can't very well claim ignorance about the violence of the content. If they aren't maintaining a healthy level of involvement in the lives of their children they've got no one to blame but themselves.

Having said that, video games today are a virtual "pornography of violence"; characters are maimed or killed without thought to consequences in most titles, which are ultimately marketed to children when they share space among children's titles in gaming magazines or on review websites. It's highly unlikely even grown adults leave a session of intense gaming (or violent movies for that matter) without some imprint, as these games are designed to trigger and reward unhealthy responses.

I've got a certain amount of room for games like BF1942 in my free time, but I also enjoy games like Zork or Myst that are underrepresented in today's lineup on the shelves. Maybe they've got a point?

Re:Of course, the responsibility is shared.

[prockcore]

Having said that, video games today are a virtual "pornography of violence"; characters are maimed or killed without thought to consequences in most titles,

you know, I just got Namco Museum for my GCN.. and just finished playing the hell out of DigDug. Now here's a game where you stick monsters with a bicycle pump, and inflate them until they explode.

I don't remember anyone in the 80's complaining about how this was influencing our kids.

Too Much Hot Air

[silentbobdp]

I love how every group of twelve soccer moms standing on the sidelines biddying gets to release these lists and people actually give a damn about them and their little world for about two minutes.

With that said, any parent who lets a six- or seven-year-old play Manhunt should be shot. They exist. I saw one buy it for them while I bought SSX 3 yesterday.

It is a decent list

[Bishop]

I don't agree with everything they write, but overall it is a good list. One of their central complaints is toys marketed at younger children, but based off of movies or tv shows marketed at a much older audience. Unlike other groups, the Lion and Lamb Project seems to be more geared towards educateing parents about the dangers of violent toys and games, then legislating "violent" toys. A common complaint seen on /. is against parents who allow their children to play violent games rated M for mature. Here is have a group that agrees, and provideds parents with education regarding those issues.

That said this group may be involved in other activities that I do not agree with. I only took a cursory look at their web pages. But this is not yet another group who hates video game violence. Rather this is a group that hates violence marketed at children. A subtle but important distinction.

Jak 2

[WasterDave]

The Jak 2 thing is a fair comment. Much of it is really quite horrible - the intro movie, for instance. I'd feel really bad if I'd got this for a kid's christmas present. It's bloody hard too.

It's a good game, but I was really disappointed to not be getting a Jak and Daxter sequel.

Dave

Re:Address the problem

[tiled_rainbows]

Hey, that's yet another little cultural difference between the US and the UK (I'm making a list).
In my local branch of Blockbusters (in London), all the (softcore) porn is all mixed up with the normal-type films. So you'll get "The erotic witch project" under horror, "The seX Files" under Sci-fi, and so on.
My wife, who isn't so good at spotting the genre of a film from the video box, sometimes says stuff like, "hey, what's "Lesbian Prison Riot' about? Have you seen it? Is it good?"

The other thing that annoys me is the way they don't put all the Hollywood stuff under "World Cinema". I said to the guy in the shop, "hey, 90% of your stock is foreign films! All these American films should really be over there with the arty French stuff.

And then the rest of the shop would be kept free for Four Weddings and a Funeral, and, er, that other film.

wow

[Frizzle Fry]

Ninja turtles. Professional wrestling. Transformers. These are the same toys I had when I was a kid. I thought that I would never have heard of whatever kids were playing with now, but I know those. That's so cool.