Slashdot Mirror
Rio Karma 20GB Reviewed
asv108 writes "The Rio Karma has been out on the market for over a month now with very little mainstream press. Slashdot covered the product announcement back in August for one of the first mainstream devices that supports OGG and FLAC playback. I've posted a little review of the 20 GB Rio Karma, which, besides OGG/FLAC/MP3/WMA playback, has a great little dock that syncs the player via ethernet. One little known gem is that this player comes with java-based software that allows users to download the software directly from the player via any browser and sync the Karma with Linux, Mac OS X, and any other OS that Java runs on."
But can't they make it less ugly?
I know everyone is trying to make these as small and unobtrusive as possible, but this little guy is a little too small and too oddly-shaped (a square???) to be comfortably used.
What would be nice would be a set of bluetooth headphones so that a wire from my pocket to my ear wasn't necessary.
What will we complain about now?
It plays ogg.
It sync via ethernet.
We're going to have to find a new gold standard, and fast!
====
Crudely Drawn Games
It's nice to see that some mainstream players are finally starting to add OGG support to their products. It's about time for a change.
A cheaper place to find this item is www.newegg.com. Last I checked it was 295 w/ free shipping. They are a fairly reputable dealer.
Though it dosn't support .ogg, Rio made a similar 20 gig player a year or two ago that is really cheap now. You can get one on ebay for around $120.
Patents and royalties.
and any other OS that Java **** on.
Try any of the following:
plods
walks
crawls
crashes
leaks
gums
The Karma can be purchased for $290 on amazon.com, with another $20 off with a rebate. That's $270 versus $400.
I bought one last week, and my roomate has the recent 20GB iPod. While I think his iPod is slightly nicer (in design), I don't think it's $130 nicer. But, to each his own.
Noooo..AAC is the audio coded for MPEG 4.
just becasue Apple DRMs AAC does not mean that AAC is DRMed. hell, you can DRM an MP3 if you like, all you need to do is encript it which is what Apple does. you can DRM an OGG or a FLAC file too.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
How can I use this Rio Karma device to get a +1 bonus for my slashdot posts?
My review of the Karma : Excellent.
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't FLAC fall inside the Ogg container? I know that most people think of Vorbis as just "Ogg," but it's just one of the parts of Ogg, another of which, if this page says what I think it does, is FLAC.
Regardless, it doesn't hurt to be accurate. It's great that it plays Ogg Vorbis and Ogg FLAC files, and has lots of other cool features; however, I'll not give up my iPod till you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
won't buy one until it supports...
um... I mean until it syncs via...
until it runs... YEAH! Still doesn't run linux. Therefore I won't buy one.
Phew. For a minute there I thought I was going to have to buy it.
Etiquette is etiquette. He kills his mother but he can't wear grey trousers.
Look at the site and click on the system requirements and you'll see RIO states it needs Windows.
The least they could do is say GNU/Linux can be used but there will be no telephone tech support.
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This Rio Karma, on the other hand, is small. Its longets dimension is only 3" and it weighs 5.5 oz.
___
Cognitive Overflow
more than yo
Have had mine for three days now. Loving it.
Only problem is you have to use USB to upgrade the firmware and it's proprietary driver is Windows only. Once you've upgraded the firmware though, the java client works great. Be sure to dl the latest version though. The developer himself has a site, check out www.riovolution.com's forums for details.
I have mine hooked to my stereo in my living room with a wireless bridge connecting to my network. Files sync faster than USB2 over 100mb ethernet, slower over my 11b link.
Plays ogg like a charm. The UI is slick and the quickest and most responsive I've seen on an mp3 player (including ipod).
Well worth the ~$300 I paid. Pick one up today!
And yell at them to make the firmware upgradable under Linux.
- Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero.
It's obviously 'designed' for right-handed people. Interestingly, the iPod doesn't appear to favour one hand over the other.
:) Granted, that's the larger majority of the population...
Just a thought. -- and I'm not even left-handed.
You're wrong. AAC is the generic term for the codec of MPEG-4 audio. Apple's iTunes is AAC encoded with drm. An MPEG-4 file is a QuickTime file... did you know that? MPEG-4 video, AAC audio, with the wrapper being QuickTime... of course, things like DivX are MPEG-4 video in AVI.
The truth about Michael
Now, moving on from usability issues and looks, it has some other features that I just couldn't pass up. First, it has an internal mic that can make voice recordings. Secondly, it also has line in and line out ports, that work as optical OR analog. For recording via the input, you can choose to record via an external mic, line in, or optical in. The external mic is a hell of alot hotter than line in, by the way. For all this recording, you can record to wav (optical does 48khz while the rest do 44), or to mp3 that is encoded on the fly, at bitrates ranging from 40kpbs to 320. This sold it for me, as I am an avid show taper (with a pair of clip on mic's and a sony DAT), and this will be fun to play with - I plan to do a double recording sometime to do a comparison of quality between the DAT and iHP-120, but I've already done a test recording at a show and it didnt sound bad at all. My only gripe would have to be that there doesn't appear to be a way to control the level of the line-in, but you CAN adjust the level of the external mic, just not while you are recording. Also, it doesnt show levels so you won't know if it's redlining until you actually listen to it. I'm hoping they might fix this in a firmware update but I'm not very hopeful, although from what my test showed, it might not even be needed.
Anyways, just wanted to chime in, I too think the karma is rather ugly, and the slightly bigger size of the iHP-120 is not a deterrant at all. I guess the only one would be the price - it's around $355 or so, a bit more than the karma but with the extra features, I think it's worth it. It does play OGG's, by the way, and transferring files is painless with USB as the unit shows up as another hard drive connected to your system - you can easily use it as a portable hard drive if you want. There's more reviews around the net if you look, for more indepth information.
Does the Karma support dynamic playlist building? That is, can you program a playlist on the device while it is playing music?
Does the Karma support gapless playback? I've heard about the crossfade feature, but I'm much more interested in gapless transitions between tracks.
Does it display non-western charsets in the song titles? Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Even accented ISO-8859-1 European characters would be a good start.
Finally, does it play vorbis files at all bitrates? libvorbis 1.0 can encode 48kbps up to about 320 kbps. I was quite disappointed that my neuros was unable to play anything below 64kbps. Some of Garf's demo files contain entire songs encoded in vorbis at as low as 4kbps. I have not heard of anyone who has tried to play these back on a portable.
Note that I am very close to getting a Karma anyway, even if the answers are all no... but if you could tell me that some of them are yes, then that would really seal the deal.
I set up a mirror since the last time /. linked to my site it died within 10mins due to my host provider putting a ridiculous amount of sites on one ancient sparc machine.
Two things:
As the original poster pointed out, Ogg is a container. It can contain Vorbis or FLAC equally well. We just call Vorbis "ogg" for the same reason we refer to Sorenson as "QuickTime" - certainly there are other things that can be stored in the container but it's a bit like a Kleenex type convention.
And, yes, Vorbis "supports" bitrate peeling, but no one has yet written the program that will peel it, in fact several of the developers have stated that the current way the Vorbis stream is (dis)organized, it's impossible to write such a program.
Believe me there are headphones where you can tell the difference. The $300 Etymotic ER-4P headphones are more than portable enough for a portable player and produce better sound than all but maybe a half dozen (no exaggeration) full size headphone models. In fact for regular stereo audio (i.e. not surround sound), a good pair of headphones is almost guaranteed to sound better than the same amount of money spent on speakers, because speakers have to contend with reflection noise off your walls.
So I'd say you have it backwards -- computer listening doesn't really benefit much from lossless audio, but headphone listening sure can.
Even if you don't feel like spending $300 on headphones, there are still many lesser headphones for which FLAC is worthwhile. Don't judge headphone quality based on the cheap headphones included with the player.
I hope I can answer some of these questions. I'm quite happy with my Karma. It may not be as stylish as the iPod (and has a couple moving parts), but it sounds great, cost $130 less, and is good value for my money (though some people have had problems).
Does it work over Samba/FTP/SSH, or is it all via Windows software or some crappy Java applet?
You can use native windows software, or a java applet. The applet isn't crappy, but it isn't as feature-rich as the win32 native app. The win32 app is similar to itunes (though not as nice), and now allows the sending of play lists.
Does it run ethernet at 100BaseT?
Yes
Does it appear as a USB hard drive with a FAT32 filesystem or similar?
Unfortunately, no. It uses a different (perhaps proprietary) format. It does not show up as an external hard drive (anymore), and you must use some sort of software to transfer files. At one point, there were 3rd party drivers that let Windows recognize it as a removable drive, but with their recent software (not firmware) update, they broke the driver support on purpose, due to problems on some drives.
Are there any hacking efforts to put these features in?
Like I said, there was a 3rd party driver to allow windows recognition, but they don't work anymore. There IS talk of rio developing their own driver, but I've yet to read any confirmation.
AAC has nothing to do with DRM. You are saying just because it supports DRM, it should not be used? Like it or not, within next few years you won't be able to pickup a player which DOESN'T support DRM.
And no, your "current players" won't be able to interface with newer stuff, exactly because of DRM. So badmouthing AAC, (which is by the way a fine audio codec, which scales well from low bitrate to high bitrate professional broadcasting) just because of DRM is pretty stupid.
And MPEG4 is not a "codec", its a collection of intellectual property which covers advanced audio and video compression/encoding techniques.
After spending weeks deciding in the back of my mind, these are the features that sold me on the Karma:
Small size (although I decided the thickness made a huge difference)
Ogg support. This was a big factor in my decision.
Cool dock with ethernet
Nice display, 'analog' level dials were cool
And I found the following to be critical flaws:
Bugs! Too many inconveniences made it feel like it was rushed to market without sufficient QA. Songs would start over around 90 seconds into a track, or skip to another track altogether.
The management software (a java version is available to run on any platform) is crappy. No progress meters, lame compared to itunes or musicmatch or even windows explorer. This is the only way to transfer music or files.
Ethernet doesn't run at full duplex. WTF!?
Nothing esepcially useful about ethernet connectivity like a web server, ftp server, or smb. You might as well just hook it up over usb2 to avoid shitty transfer rates.
The physical controls on the device suck. It's awkward to use with one hand, especially if you wish to look at the screen and not your thumb/fingers. Some buttons are redundant, and it's not especiially clear at first how the scroll wheel will fuck up whatever you're listing to. It has separate volume buttons, but they're not exactly convenient.
It's physical presence is very... present. It's thicker in real life than I wanted to believe. It's also a little heavy. Ipod rules this comparison.
So, I just got an ipod instead. Same price and features, less annoyances, better support/accessories, iTunes isn't too bad. I like the 1394 better than usb2 for recharging it with the data cable. I'm sure there are a few other reasons to go with an ipod. I just figure it's no comparison with the karma, except that current lack of ogg support is kind of weak. I wish apple would pull their head out of their asses on this issue.
Short version. The Karma is crap unless it can get some major annoyances resolved.
When you're talking about something small, an extra inch is a big deal.
y .
Must...resist...urge..to..post...lowbrow...repl
I have one -- and boy I wish I held on to my money.
The firmware is very, very buggy. Go to riovolution.com and check out the karma board. People are having problems galore. In fact, having a unit that works reliably is incredible luck. The firmware problems are:
1. Karma spontaneously reboots during various tasks, usually song upload via the network. Anything you've uploaded in that session goes poof. I've had to do one album at a time, though the java client has a "upload this directory" feature. Going back and hunting which uploaded and which didn't kinda sucks.
2. When it doesn't reboot, it also likes to randomly hang during song upload. Only hardware reset convinces it to go out of that state. Any song you've been uploaded when it hung gets lost, but the client doesn't know this, so you end up missing random songs from your collection.
3. Sometimes, during song playback, it will randomly stop and go back to the beginning of the track.
4. Higher-bitrate MP3s sometimes started skipping and pausing for me, like it was having trouble filling up the playback buffer. Then it would freeze, requiring an on/off or a reset.
5. No gapless playback for non-mp3 tracks. Sucks to be you if you like oakenfold and ripped all your stuff to oggs. You'll have nice 2-second pauses between each track.
6. Flac will quickly drain your battery, as Karma doesn't have a very large flash buffer, and it ends up constantly spinning up and spinning down the hard drive.
I've had all of these problems, and I'm not alone, as the message boards show. And, to top it off, 3 weeks into usage, after I've finally sort of gotten used to all of its quirks, it completely died -- from the sound of it, the hdd went South. Rio's support is horrible: I've had a ticket open for over a week and a half, and though the customer service drone took down my serial number, order number, etc, I've not heard from anyone since, and I've sent repeated emails. I'll be calling tomorrow, and boy, am I going to be unhappy.
So, there you have it. If I were you, I'd wait at least half a year before I would buy a Rio Karma, otherwise invest in a nice toupee -- you'll be tearing out your hair in handfuls.
Yes, I'm a little bitter, as I've been really waiting on an ogg-compatible, linux-friendly player for a loooong time now, and ended up paying $400 for a lemon instead (there is a reason prices on it dropped so dramatically after it's been first released).
Sigh.
If you open yourself to the foo, You and foo become one.
Although you may have had a bad experience or you may just be trolling, I've not had any of the experiences you've had so far after 2 weeks of heavy use. The management software (a java version is available to run on any platform) is crappy
The windows software seems to be refreshing to me because it doesn't take a swiss army approach, instead it focuses on sync and organization. The nice thing about rio management software is the ability to have multiple sources without any bs. The java version works but it is certainly not full featured by any means and is not designed to be, remember they don't even advertise non-windows capabilities.
Nothing esepcially useful about ethernet connectivity The whole point of the Ethernet sync is to be able to have your player hooked up to the dock in your home theater area and being able to sync it from a computer located somewhere else.
like a web server, ftp server, or smb.
I can transfer music or non-music files to my Karma from anywhere, why the fuck would I need ftp or smb?
The physical controls on the device suck. I've found them to rival the ipod, I've owned both generations of Apple's player, they may not be to your liking but they certainly don't "suck."
It's also a little heavy. Ipod rules this comparison.
The rio karma actually weighs less.
So, I just got an ipod instead. Same price and features
The 20GB karma cost $100 less than the 20GB ipod and has support for OGG, FLAC, WMA, along with ethernet sync, and better accessories.
Only songs from the iTunes Music Store are encoded with DRM.
So, to summarize:
AAC does not mean DRM.
iTunes AAC encodings do not mean DRM.
Songs purchased from the iTMS, which come in the AAC format, include DRM, but permit copying for fair use, so long as you don't have it loaded on more than a few computers at the same time.
Any questions, class?
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
(a) iRiver iHP-120 and Rio Karma both support Ogg
(b) Rio Karma supports ethernet LAN charger with RCA plugs for home theatre
(c) Samsung YP-910 has FM encoder and antenna for FM broadcast
(d) iRiver iHP-120 allows realtime recording from and of its inputs
(e) Almost all new players match iPod footprint
Most players typically have:
MP3/WAV playback
2" backlit monochrome LCD display
In-line remote
USB 2.0 support
Built-in Li-Ion rechargable battery
(Prices are estimates from pricegrabber.com)
iPod ($388)
IEEE 1394a (USB 2.0 extra)
AAC/AIFF
Dimensions: 4.1" x 2.4" x 0.62" (5.6 oz)
Dell Digital Jukebox 20 ($325)
Front mounted 3-way scroll-barrel
WMA (7,8,9 DRM)
Built-in Voice Recorder Mic (WAV IMA ADPCM 8kHz Mono)
Dimensions: 4.1" x 2.7" x 0.86" (7.61 oz)
iRiver iHP-120 ($358)
FM Tuner and digital input & output
Backlit inline remote w/ 4-line LCD
Realtime MP3 recording from voice, FM, optical or analog inputs
Supports Ogg/ASF/WMA
Dimensions: 4.1" x 2.4" x 0.7" (5.3 oz)
Samsung YP-910GS ($315)
FM encoder (tx) and antenna (broadcasts to FM freq)
Built-in FM tuner
Dimensions: 4.19" x 2.54" x 0.78" (6.0 oz)
Rio Karma ($277)
Ogg/FLAC support
Base-station supports ethernet LAN with RCA jacks
Greyscale LCD with visualizations
Dimensions: 2.7" x 3.0" x 0.9" (5.5 oz)
Archos Gmini 120 ($306)
Supports CompactFlash
Upgradable Voice Recorder/FM/PhotoWallet modules ($$)
Dimensions: 4.45" x 3.07" x 1.02" (8.61 oz)
Nomad Jukebox Zen ($220)
Dimensions: 4.43" x 2.99" x 0.95" (9.5 oz)
Nomad Jukebox Zen NX ($250)
Dimensions: 4.4" x 3.0" x 0.86" (7.9 oz)
Philips HDD100 15GB MP3 Player ($269)
Dimensions: 4.19" x 2.54" x 0.78" (5.92 oz)
RCA Lyra 20 GB Jukebox MP3 ($240)
CompactFlash
mp3PRO/WMA
Dimensions: 5.2" x 3.14" x 1.0"
Archos Jukebox Multimedia ($229)
MPEG4
Dimensions: 4.45" x 3.11" x 1.18 in (10.23 oz)
RCA Lyra 40GB Jukebox RD2840 ($260)
mp3PRO/WMA
Dimensions: 4.5" x 3.2" x 0.9" (9.6 oz)
RCA Lyra Audio/Video Jukebox RD2780 20GB ($389)
3.5" color LCD QVGA 320 X 240
MPEG1/MPEG4 video
mp3PRO/WMA
Dimensions: 5.37" x 3.13" x 0.95"
Archos AV320 MP3/Video Player ($450)
Dimensions: 2.3" x 2.1" x 1.2"
- Links to Tens of Thousands of Legal Music Downloads
It has been Google's #1 hit for the query legal music downloads for three months, and has had 14872 hits so far this month.It has a Creative Commons license. You are encouraged to copy it.
A Romanian translation will be posted soon, kindly provided by Ciprian Mihet. I am actively seeking translations to other languages.
Here's the introduction:
Request your free CD of my piano music.
The Karma can be purchased for $290 on amazon.com, with another $20 off with a rebate. That's $270 versus $400.
I heard about EverQuest items sold on e-Bay, but $270 for karma?? No way! I think some people take slashdot way too seriously.
Actually, it uses a later generation CPU than the iPod (though both have dual ARM7TDMI cores), with many enhancements.
:)
The iPod also runs multi-CPU... it just has less features