Slashdot Mirror


Gender Inclusive Game Design Reviewed

BWJones writes "iDevGames has posted a book review on Gender Inclusive Game Design that should prove an interesting read not only for game design, but also for the sociological perspective. I've long wondered why the game design community has not paid more attention to gender issues given that the gaming industry has now eclipsed the movie industry in terms of overall sales. While I am not a gamer per se, I am on the beta test teams for a couple big Mac development/porting houses. I have wondered how some of these games would appeal to different demographics and what the gender demographics were. I am sure that given the financial motives, this data is available somewhere."

44 comments

  1. Well... by GregThePaladin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Why market a game to one particular gender? Games like Beyond Good and Evil and The Sims seem like they're great for either sex, and both seem to be doing well.

    One thing I keep hearing from girls is that games like Barbie Horse Adventure suck. These people play The Sims, which dosen't seem marketed at any particular gender.

    1. Re:Well... by BenSnyder · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you'll RTFA (ahem) you'll see that the book really refers to gender inclusive games, not 'girl games'. The question you ask is one the book attempts to answer with a remedy.

    2. Re:Well... by justMichael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You seem to have both missed the point and hit it on the head in the same post.

      The book is not about developing games marketed towards women, but more about developing games that don't drive them away.

    3. Re:Well... by spitzig · · Score: 1

      I got that Barbie game in a pack of NES games I recently downloaded. Checked it out because I'd heard about it as THE game for girls. Meaning, for a while it was pretty much the only game that had been written FOR girls, even though it sucked.

      It looked like a completely standard side scroller.

      You jump over stuff. The control sucked.
      Things hurt you. What I saw were floating tennis rackets. It was bad enough I didn't stick around long enough to find out whether there were weapons. Given the setting(Barbie) they probably would've been given some label other than "weapons", if there were any.

    4. Re:Well... by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1
      Boys are typically content with fast-paced shoot-um-ups, but girls just don't like um. Girls like politics, drama, romance, and socializing....things that are very hard to get "right" in a game. Definately not quick and easy like so much of the game market is right now.

      I'm surprised they haven't given something like The Sims more RPG-like, or episode-like elements, and a bit more control. The only downside of that game is the time requirement...most moms [i.e. like my wife] don't have enough time to play to make it rewarding and hence give up quickly and revert to quick "puzzle" games like a poster below said. Doesn't mean they don't want more!

      If your up for specs, I'd venture cross The Sims with Marrowind & tetris [!?] and make it have meaningful play & storyline in 15 minute sessions without resorting to monster killing! I'm surprised nobody's tried to do a "Charmed" [WB tv show] type game--but it's hard to get that stuff exactly right.

  2. Why worry about it at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't care what sex videogame characters are. Why should this matter?

    1. Re:Why worry about it at all? by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Iduno. When I handed my GBA with Golden Sun to my girlfriend's younger sister, every five minutes or so, she'd complain, "I told it my name is Sarah. Why the hell does it keep calling me a he?"

      Personally, I could give a fuck what sex characters are if video game writing was about 4000x better. Maybe we outgrossed movies recently, but video games aren't exactly approaching the artistic merit of, say, 21 Grams. Games aren't even approaching the artistic merit of the best comic books. imnsho.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    2. Re:Why worry about it at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2 things:

      1) your girlfriends' younger sister has a point-- it would suck if allowed the "freedom" to name and "create" your character it still assumed you were a she or he. My character "HUMUNGOUS DUDE" shouldn't be referred to "she"-- how would you feel?

      2) Artistic merit-- it would be nice to have some in games, true. But as long as the things are limited by GAMEPLAY there won't be any. Hence the problem of making "game" movies like TR, RE, HOTD. They don't have a lot of material other than shoot, shoot, dodge, shoot, drive car, whatever. And unless the game really tries to be something it isn't, I don't want the damn thing to have deep character development or plot. Just before I waste something with my BFG, I don't care about its life history.

      Now there are games which call for this sort of thing (rpg, adventure)-- but the vast majority won't.

    3. Re:Why worry about it at all? by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Regarding your second point that artistic merit is limited by gameplay concern:

      I couldn't disagree more. My favorite part of any game, be it an FPS, RPG or a sidescroller, is when an innovative story is revealed to me. This is one of the reasons that Half Life was considered such an excellent game. It certainly didn't innovate in gameplay.

      And I have yet to see an RPG with dialog or a plot that didn't have obvious room for improvement. There are plenty that are good enoughto be lots of fun. There are none so good that they could be made into a movie that I'd like.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    4. Re:Why worry about it at all? by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "every five minutes or so, she'd complain, "I told it my name is Sarah. Why the hell does it keep calling me a he?"

      Because she doesn't understand what "role-playing" means. She's supposed to pretend to be a guy just as all the characters in the game pretend their in real situations.

      If she's so uptight about gender identity in video games, try tossing her Metroid Fusion instead.

    5. Re:Why worry about it at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She's supposed to pretend to be a guy just as all the characters in the game pretend their in real situations.

      You think her parents would be happy if she started going around grabbing her crotch, spitting, ignoring personal hygene, and beating up other kids? :)

      Anyways, it's people like you that are responsible for creating video games that discourage women from playing them. After all, what woman wants to play the "Super Steriod Man", where your character has a chest the size of a mack truck, blows up an entire city in one punch, and every woman in 50 miles runs up - with D cup breasts and clothes falling off - screaming "I love you Super Steroid Man!"

    6. Re:Why worry about it at all? by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "After all, what woman wants to play the "Super Steriod Man", where your character has a chest the size of a mack truck, blows up an entire city in one punch, and every woman in 50 miles runs up - with D cup breasts and clothes falling off - screaming "I love you Super Steroid Man!""

      I as a guy am not all that interested in that game. It barely sounds rentable to me. Sure, it might sell well to the sacred 18-25 y.o. male demographic (fool, money, parted, etc.) for about a week, but as soon as the next T&A game comes along such a game would be sitting in the $9.99 bin (where it belongs, IMO).

      Of course, a lot of the games I do like playing involve playing as a short, fat, mustachioed, coveralled plumber who's always trying to save a princess who never wears anything that stops above the knee except on a tennis court or golf course, so what do I know?

  3. Games are nowhere near movies in size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What sloppy journalism. Video game box sales are larger than movie ticket sales, IN THE US. Apples and oranges comparison. The DVD/VHS purchase and rental business is FAR larger, by itself, than the games business. If you're going to compare boxes sold/rented, movies win. If you're going to compare on-site viewings/playing then compare arcades with movie theatres. Again, movies dominate by a huge margin.

  4. Where do you work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
    From the write-up:
    I am on the beta test teams for a couple big Mac development/porting houses.


    Big Mac development ... you mean, McDonalds?

    Maybe you can ask that clown for help.

  5. Don't talk about Steve Jobs that way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Maybe you can ask that clown for help"

    don't be talking about Steve Jobs that way. you might make him shit his pants.

  6. Gender bias in gaming by angst_ridden_hipster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So I wrote a puzzle game for the Palm Pilot. It involves simple geometry, spacial manipulation of tiles, and a consistent (if arbitrary) set of rules for scoring.

    According to all the research, males are supposed to be "better" at spacial organization type operations. Whatever.

    In any case, 90% of the people who register the software, write me email, or confess to addition are women. I have no explanation for this. I don't understand it. But more than one woman has said that the game "intrudes into her dreams," and becomes an obsession to the point where it's disturbing. I haven't had one man say either of those things.

    I don't get it. But there it is.

    --
    Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
    www.fogbound.net
    1. Re:Gender bias in gaming by mechugena · · Score: 1
      ...confess to addition...

      I'd rather find women who are more willing to partake in multiplication!

    2. Re:Gender bias in gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, what for are ya hakken a chainik?

      Anyway, when you're willing to drop a "c", either kind of woman is easy to find.

    3. Re:Gender bias in gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your game is so popular, you should start putting subliminal messages in it. Like "Love thy Programmer", and "This Programmer is a Sex God".

      You know, stuff like that.

    4. Re:Gender bias in gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have never touched a real woman, have you?

  7. Doom 3 will have this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    "You have encountered a level 5 Demon. Press A to attack. Press R to restyle it's hair. Press S to invite it to go shopping with you."

    1. Re:Doom 3 will have this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      As opposed to the current state of things?

      "You have encountered a level 7 Succubus. Press A to attack. Press F to post to a dozen online gaming forums looking for a code to make the succubus naked. Press M to enable the one-handed gameplay mode for 30 seconds. Press C to solicit cybersex from the succubus."

  8. More Female Avatars! by Saige · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The review and book make a good point - that us women DO prefer to use female avatars when we're playing (exceptions for online play, where the harassment by the socially inept "a/s/l" types makes hiding the fact valuable). Yet so many games either don't give us the opportunity, having only a male character, or when they do choose, the choices, seem to be clearly made for 14 year-old boys, with women that are endowed as if they were full of silicon/saline.

    Diablo II is a great example of what there could be - three female characters, none of them looking ridiculous. Or some of the Quake 3 characters.

    It seems like adding such a choice couldn't really hurt the game in many situations, except for the FMV-loaded games - though even some of them could probably be done differently to allow that kind of freedom.

    --
    "You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
    1. Re:More Female Avatars! by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Yet so many games either don't give us the opportunity, having only a male character, or when they do choose, the choices, seem to be clearly made for 14 year-old boys, with women that are endowed as if they were full of silicon/saline."

      To be fair, all the guys are muscular, tanned, and athletic. At least your side gets the fat chick.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    2. Re:More Female Avatars! by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      My problem with Diablo II is they didn't leave a choice.

      I think gender selection should have been a part of it. Ever character on there could have been male or female, granted the Amazon would probably not be an Amazon anymore, but there could be an equal male Character. BTW, I used the Rouge on the first and the Amazon on the second.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    3. Re:More Female Avatars! by BWJones · · Score: 1

      It seems like adding such a choice couldn't really hurt the game in many situations, except for the FMV-loaded games - though even some of them could probably be done differently to allow that kind of freedom.

      FMV-loaded? What's that?

      Yes, you are most correct in that most games could easily be created with either gender neutrality or an option to set the sex of the avatar. However, more difficult would be the establishment of story lines that might appeal to both genders equally. Sometimes it does not matter, but other times, women may be more averse to say, Duke Nukem which would appeal to the 13 year old male to a greater degree. Yes?

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    4. Re:More Female Avatars! by 33degrees · · Score: 1

      FMV = Full motion video, refering to pre-rendered cut scenes. In games that feature a lot of them, it would be a significant amount of extra work (and disk space) to make a second set featuring a female lead. The only game I know that features this is Enter The Matrix, which gives you a choice of either a male or a female character, which have slightly differing stories.

    5. Re:More Female Avatars! by Saige · · Score: 1

      To be fair, all the guys are muscular, tanned, and athletic.

      You don't get it. Guys can choose avatars based on either the "that's what I wanna look like" feeling (the overly-muscular and attractive avatars), or the "I wanna do that!" feeling (women who look straight out of a porn movie - often with matching wardrobe in fantasy games).

      Women don't choose based on the "I wanna do that character" feeling. And besides, it doesn't seem like a huge request just to have some realistic choices for avatars.

      At least your side gets the fat chick.

      And what the fuck is this supposed to mean? We don't want to choose the blond sex-kitten avatar so our only other choice is a fat female character? This is just plain insulting.

      --
      "You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
    6. Re:More Female Avatars! by NanoGator · · Score: 2

      "Women don't choose based on the "I wanna do that character" feeling. And besides, it doesn't seem like a huge request just to have some realistic choices for avatars."

      No, it really isn't an unreasonable request. Then again, what's the BFD?

      "And what the fuck is this supposed to mean? We don't want to choose the blond sex-kitten avatar so our only other choice is a fat female character? This is just plain insulting."

      It's a joke, and obviously you missed the point of it.

      Lighten up. If you're going to get that mad over a joke (that was actually at male's expense btw)then don't expect anybody to take your feelings seriously.

      I'm a 3D artist. I may one day be involved in a game where I have to design 3d avatars. Do you want me to understand your PoV or do you want me to go "wow, there are women out there that go off on the pettiest things"? Give me a little credit, will ya?

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    7. Re:More Female Avatars! by emilng · · Score: 1

      "No, it really isn't an unreasonable request. Then again, what's the BFD?"

      I think the BFD is - there goes your gender inclusive game. She states the reasons why she would not buy a game that has specific gender biases and you brush them off as being trivial.

      "It's a joke, and obviously you missed the point of it."

      Maybe, but have you considered that she might not be the only one who missed the point of your joke?

    8. Re:More Female Avatars! by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      " She states the reasons why she would not buy a game that has specific gender biases and you brush them off as being trivial."

      It wasn't my intention to brush them off as trivial, it was to let her know she's over-reacting.

      "Maybe, but have you considered that she might not be the only one who missed the point of your joke?"

      Ya know, I can kind of see how why she was upset. And I'm sorry about that. I really wish we could have settled it more tactfully, though. I really do care about feelings like this, but I tend to go off a bit half-cocked when I feel like I'm being attacked for being a guy. (note: not saying that's what she was after, but I did feel defensive.)

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    9. Re:More Female Avatars! by Saige · · Score: 1

      I myself buy a game if it's good. I'll put up with the stereotypes, and most serious female gamers are used to putting up with them, and aren't going to exclude an entire game just because of poor choices of avatar. So such a thing won't cause me to not play the game - and usually, if the avatars are blatantly over the top, the game sucks anyways.

      However, such images are going to have an affect on less serious female gamers. When the game characters are clearly designed to appeal to teenage boys, the girl who is curious about games and sees that is much more likely not to play it - and to make stereotypical judgements about the game industry. It's not that a bad avatar choice will turn off ALL female gamers - just that systematic choices in that direction by the game industry does strongly push an entire - and large - group of people away from games.

      And I'm sorry I overreacted a bit to your attempted joke. I didn't mean to come across like I was attacking you just for being male - if that's what you felt, I apologize. No hard feelings?

      --
      "You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
    10. Re:More Female Avatars! by RickoniX · · Score: 1

      Well, most of the gender singular characters in Diablo II had reasons for it, the Amazons because of the terrain on their home island, the sorceresses because they were a collection of witches, the barbarian because they probably followed a men fight women nurture society.

      --
      Geekleak.com - Silly name, serious geeks
    11. Re:More Female Avatars! by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      " and usually, if the avatars are blatantly over the top, the game sucks anyways."

      Were ya picturing Tomb Raider? ;) Man that game was dull.

      " just that systematic choices in that direction by the game industry does strongly push an entire - and large - group of people away from games."

      Hmm.. are ya saying it's sorta like a boys only club? I can see it working out that way. I think I have a clearer idea of why my previous comment was a problem. Probably felt like I was saying "who cares if women don't wanna play games?" or something along those lines. *Sigh* I'm not terribly proud of myself at times. (If I missed the point, lemme know? I'd hate to make somebody else feel like that again.)

      "And I'm sorry I overreacted a bit to your attempted joke. I didn't mean to come across like I was attacking you just for being male - if that's what you felt, I apologize. No hard feelings?"

      I'm really glad we were able to talk about it it. And I'm sorry I was dismissive to what you were saying. :)

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  9. cans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the girl on the book cover needs to show more tit

  10. Hasn't this been done? by El · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I recall in the old Infocom game "Leather Godesses of Phobos", the first thing you did what decide which restroom to go pee in, which established your gender for the rest of the game. If you went into the ladies room, you got to rescue a hunky (but dimwitted) male later in the game...

    --

    "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

  11. I've played many female characters in my time... by clu76 · · Score: 1

    I've played many female characters in games over the years. I most likely experienced my first video game cross gender experience with Ms. Pacman. Here's a list of games with female leads (or choice of) off of the top of my head that I've personally played:

    Ms. Pacman
    Choice of M/F - Labyrinth
    Razor - Maniac Mansion
    Alice - Alice in Wonderland (C64)
    Princess Peach - Super Mario Bros. 2
    Passionate Patty - Leisure Suit Larry 3
    Princess Rosella - Kings Quest 4
    Valkyrie - Gauntlet
    Samus Aran - Metroid
    Chung Li - Street Fighter
    Sonya - Mortal Kombat
    Jill Valentine - Resident Evil
    Rebecca Chambers - Resident Evil 0, Resident Evil
    Eternal Darkness

    --
    the cosmos in 20 words or less: thumbuki.com
  12. An answer to your question: by LordZardoz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "I've long wondered why the game design community has not paid more attention to gender issues given that the gaming industry has now eclipsed the movie industry in terms of overall sales."

    Simple enough to answer. Game designers like to make games that they want to play. The team morale for a group of 22 - 30 year old programmers working on a barbie title is just slightly less enthusiastic then the guy who scrubs toilets for a living.

    END COMMUNICATION

  13. Yes please by tokaok · · Score: 1

    if by gender they mean sex, then yes i think we could all use some more of it included in games.

  14. A whole book?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you need a book for? Just add this option to all future games:

    TITS : ON/OFF

  15. The men, the women, and the misunderstanding. by destine · · Score: 1

    As a transgendered woman I have a little perspective here. There are a couple of gripes here.

    1) Avatars -

    The Men - We get good looking buff avatars and you get hot chick avatars. What's the problem?

    The Women - All the males are playing the hot chick avatar and I personally wouldn't want 36EEE breasts. Why do these game programmers always program us like porn stars?

    The Misunderstanding - Men honestly think about sex a lot. Women tend to think more about love and honesty. Women often would like to portray themselves to a certain extent, (maybe with a few enhancements but usually not the boobs). The last thing that most women want out of an avatar is to look like a depraved sex kitten and get hit on by 14 year old boys. If a woman is going into an online environment or even an offline one, she is more likely to try to relate herself to the characters presented. If there are going to be female characters in a game there should at least be some that have normal proportions that are a little easier to relate oneself to the characters. In short, women think more about what they are and where they are going while men tend to like to see themselves and others better than they are physically and women just don't need to be forced into a playboy centerfold when they aren't. It's demeaning and doesn't do much for self-esteem.

    2. The Storylines -

    The Men - That storyline kicked ass! I just saved the world and got the girl. woohoo!

    The Women - Well that was a shallow piece of malarky. I just saved the world and got the girl. WTF! I'm gonna go read a book.

    The Misunderstanding - With a few very notable exceptions(Final Fantasy has been FAIRLY inclusive though the main character 5 time out of 6 has always been male, but a few of them there have been shared roles such as in final fantasy 9.) Especially the early ones., these games are made for boys and boys mostly. To be fair, boys by more games by a VERY large margin. Men also write most of the game plots, again with only a few notable exceptions(Kings Quest anyone?). So anyway, you rarely see good storylines that can cater to both men and women. It's really a chicken and the egg thing.

    3. The Victim

    The Men - The character I most identified with was wearing full plate armor, had a magic gun of evil slaying, and could summon all 8 Gods of the realm.

    The Women - The only character I have to identify with was lying stripped nearly bare on the dungeon floor was rescued by some dork with no personality in a tin can who thought he spoke to the Gods. Throughout the entire game, my characters only words were, "Help! Save me!". And in the end she fell in love with the psycho tin can. Games are dumb, I'm gonna go get some exercise.

    The Misunderstanding - Women in games quite frequently exist as victims or sex toys and quite frankly chances are if you see a woman in a movie with only a few notable exceptions, it's the same way. The women fall in love with the main character and that's really why they exist. They don't do much of anything. If they do, they have to show a weekness to or for the main character in the games before they can be valid characters. If you look at one of my favorite games, FFVII, Cloud goes on a date with one of the three girls. It's easiest to get Aerith. She is the most outgoing and trusting of the bunch. She dies midway through the game never to be seen again. She was the strong one really. She was the one that helped everybody through to that point and they killed her. Don't get me wrong, that was one of the most poignant scenes in any video game ever. What happens after that is that one of the other female characters starts falling in love with the main character, notice it specifically isn't vice versa. He makes no admittance to her until the very end. The other woman is constantly stealing stuff from you and causing havoc and generally being the comic relief. Now Barret admittedly is a bit stereotypically male with the gun arm and a pentient to want to start fights.

  16. Re:I've played many female characters in my time.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just so you know, it's spelled "Chun Li" in Street Fighter, and Alex Roivas is the female lead in Eternal Darkness.