Dread Empire's Fall: The Praxis

CrankyFool writes "On advice of a foolish sci-fi bookstore clerk, I once purchased the entire Honor Harrington series in preparation for a long trip. The upcoming days would find me in a cold sweat reading these books, all the while muttering 'unclean ... unclean ...' and wishing I had something, anything, else to read. They were bad. They were very, very bad. To paraphrase Pratchett, they were so bad they went though the other side of bad and were simply not very good anymore. Look, there go some one-dimensional bad guys! Look, there goes the one-dimensional good guy (well, person)! Look, she's put in impossible tactical odds and yet somehow still manages to triumph! Look, she gets no respect back at home! Look, the next book rehashes the EXACT SAME PLOT. Needless to say, I do not like David Weber, nor do I like the Honor Harrington books. I am deeply distrustful of anyone who does." Read on to see what this has to do with Walter Jon Williams newest book, Dread Empire's Fall: the Praxis. Dread Empire's Fall: The Praxis author Walter Jon Williams pages 448 publisher HarperTorch rating 2 reviewer Roy Rapoport ISBN 038082020X summary Weber as imagined by Williams. Liked Harrington? You'll Like Martinez.

So it's a damn, damn shame that DEF:tP feels like it's written by Weber, because I really like Walter Jon Williams. I liked his cyberpunkish Hardwired and Voice of the Whirlwind. I liked his fantasy City on Fire and Metropolitan. I really liked his story of how a culture may select Gods to manage the most dangerous of technologies (Aristoi), and I thought his comedies (The Crown Jewels, Rock of Ages, and House of Shards) were, well, just damn funny.

I don't know what happened here, other than maybe Williams has Weber's arm up his ass -- that's the only explanation I can come up for this book.

The background, at least, is somewhat interesting: The Shaa, an alien race, have subjugated everyone around them for thousands of years to the point where nobody even thinks of the concept of rebellion -- everyone's been assimilated into the Shaa empire. This includes the Terrans (whose process of subjugation is the cause of the naming of the battleships Bombardment of Los Angeles, Bombardment of Delhi, Bombardment of Buenos Aires, and a few others) and the Naxid, who were the first race to be subjugated by the Shaa. The Naxid, by the way, are insectile (or insectoid, as the book prefers to call them). As everyone knows, insectile creatures are inherently evil. You'll be happy to know that one of the other races, the Torminels, is a race of nocturnals hunters, with "a plump and furry body." As is appropriate for teddy bears, the Torminels appear to be relatively harmless but when pushed are discovered to be ferocious and honorable fighters. Gotta love the Ewoks!

Anyway, back to the story: Everyone's living in harmony. Unfortunately, the Shaa, who are functionally immortal, have been slowly suiciding because, well, they're bored, and finally the last Shaa kills himself. Will the perfect order his race forced the universe into remain unchanged as he wished? Don't count on it.

Remember the Naxid? They're insectile (sorry, insectoid), and so do the only thing that an insectile (or insectoid) race is allowed in sci-fi books: They try to take over. All the other races band together to try to beat them. Apparently, Dread Empire's Fall will be the saga of that war. Thousands will fight, and millions will die. No one knows who will live and who will die. Anyone's life could be snuffed out at the next moment.

Well, as long as we define "anyone" to be "not Gareth Martinez or Caroline Sula." See, Gareth Martinez (who, by the way, is tall and considered handsome by some, very intelligent, and is cursed by a provincial accent and a lowly birth that means he just gets no respect) is one of our two protagonists. And Caroline Sula, described as "pale, nearly translucent skin, emerald-green eyes, white-gold hair worn collar-length ... Martinez threw the picture into 3D and rotated it, and Sula didn't have a single bad angle" is also very, very smart. Caroline, by the way, has a nasty little secret that you'll be very, very surprised to have revealed to you if you've been recently lobotomized and consequently not figured it out fairly early in the book.

Anyway, The Praxis covers the death of the last Shaa (whose name is Anticipation of Victory, by the way. Normally referred to by everyone as Vic, I'm sure, unless his mother was very angry at which point I'm sure it was "Anticipation of Victory you clean your room RIGHT NOW!") and the beginning of the take-over attempt by the Naxid. You'll be delighted to know that Martinez figures out what they're up to, but nobody listens to him, so he only manages to save one ship. And then, against overwhelming odds, manages to escape. You'll be delighted to find out that our heroine, Caroline Sula, when put in her own precarious position (not to blow the plot, but it involves overwhelming odds against her and almost certain death) manages to do PHENOMENALLY well. Really, she becomes quite the hero. No, wait, why is everyone laughing?

Gareth and Caroline, by the way, hook up very briefly but due to Caroline's little secret not much comes of it and she runs away to ignore him for approximately 400 pages until, three pages before the ending of the book, she sends him a note that basically says "Wow, you and I are both the heroes of this saga and so are destined to be incredibly lucky. Wanna hook up?" No, I'm not really embellishing this much.

The aforementioned 400 pages pass by relatively quickly (how quickly? I bought the book approximately ten hours ago, and have spent much of the intervening time having dinner with my family, downloading p^Hdrivers from the net, and writing this minireview). They are filled with one-dimensional characterizations (see this good-for-nothing non-com? Don't worry about him -- he'll be good-for-nothing until the last drop. This tough but incredibly smart retired weapons chief? Good guy. You can trust him not to screw up. Ever. This aristocracy Captain who likes soccer more than having a functional warship? Go ahead and write him off) and questionable strategic thinking.

Williams does throw some interesting twists into the DEF universe. The Shaa empire is ruled by the laws of The Praxis, the major religion everyone's bought into. The Praxis forbids most of the more interesting uses of technology -- bioengineering is forbidden, as is AI. FTL weapons are non-existent and FTL travel is done only through wormholes. This means that when dealing with intrasolar warfare, the main weapons are missiles. However, because missiles can't be controlled by AI, and because communication can't be FTL, the further away the missiles are from you (and the closer to the enemy), the less able you are to control them. Hence, missiles are shepherded by pinnaces, small one-person ships. Typically, a pinnace controls a volley of missiles and flies with them toward the enemy. If the pinnace pilot is very lucky and very good, they even survive, though most people don't think of this much as the last conflict the Shaa empire had (before this upcoming rebellion) was 3400 hundred years ago and lasted six days. Aside from wormhole travel, all other tech is decidedly hard sci-fi -- lasers and missiles, and both explosive and propulsion power is provided by simple anti-matter. Acceleration couches are an important fixture on ships. In fact, acceleration plays a pretty important role in most of the battles (and Williams makes one of the races both supreme tacticians and incapable of anything more than 2G. OK, that's different).

Really, though, there's nothing there to redeem the one-dimensional characters, the simplistic prose, the improbable odds our heroes manage to slog through with great distinction, and the waste of your time. If you like Weber's Harrington series, you probably want to check it out. If you're the sort of Walter Jon Williams fan who simply has to read everything he writes, your decision will be clear. As to the rest of you ... stay away.

In case you're interested, Williams has a homepage.

You can purchase Dread Empire's Fall: The Praxis from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

Comments

Praxis

[a_monkey]

I can confirm its location... but not its existance.

Re:So basically

[Frymaster]

look, there goes a one-dimensional book review!

What an interesting opening to a review

[barc0001]

Spending the entire first paragraph bashing another book series than the subject of the review, and also anyone who does like said books. That's an *excellent* way to build credibility.

Re:What an interesting opening to a review

[viniosity]

Actually, I find things like this useful to an extent. For example, if I happened to like the book series he mentions in his chapter then perhaps I'll take his comments differently and buy Praxis. This is one of the reasons there are so many critics - people tend to agree with some and disagree with others. Having him tell you what he likes provides useful background to those who have read that series. So relax, ok?

Re:What an interesting opening to a review

[CodeWanker]

It certainly is. I thought there might be something wrong with me for thoroughly detesting Honor Harrington. The series has got its fanboys out in force in a lot of places. And David Weber is the kiss of death as a writer when he doesn't have David Drake along to smack him around. So now I have a good quick'n'dirty frame of reference for approaching the style of this book. Which is probably not to my taste. I love good trashy space opera, but to me that means Lt. Leary Commanding or Hammer's Slammers, not Honor Harrington. The nice thing about this issue is that you can check out both characters/series/universes for free at baen.com in their free library area. To me, sci-fi is a guilty pleasure, and I feel like I'm browsing porno when I'm in the sci-fi section... That is, embarassed that someone I know who doesn't share my bad taste will see me there. Why is that? Because so very much of sci-fi is excrable. For every pre-Stranger Heinlein or Keith Laumer or Iain M Banks book out there there are a hundred Honor Harringtons... And so how will people judge my taste when they see me with a paperback with a guy/girl in a spacesuit super-imposed over an airbrush painting of a space battle? The same way I'd judge someone coming out of the romance section with a lurid looking "Sweet Savage Something" clutched in her clammy paw.

Re:What an interesting opening to a review

[I Be Hatin']

Having him tell you what he likes provides useful background to those who have read that series.

While I agree that it's useful to have such reference points to compare to, the way the reference was done came across as more of a gratuitous attack than a comparison. He could've achieved the comparison effect with a couple sentences in the middle of the review. Instead, he starts the review with this attack which actually has nothing to do with the book in question.

When I do reviews (of music, but the principle is the same), I always start out with a quick description of the work in question. This way, readers can quickly discern whether they might be interested in the book or not. But this reviewer starts with the attack, making the reader wade through it to even start to understand if they might like this book. It's poor style at least.

Re:What an interesting opening to a review

[barc0001]

He's entitled to his own opinion of course, and can present it with as much vitriol as he likes. What I personally object to is where he tries to force his opinion on others. The whole sentence:

Needless to say, I do not like David Weber, nor do I like the Honor Harrington books. I am deeply distrustful of anyone who does.

In other words, my opinion is right, and if you disagree with me, there must be something wrong with you.

That's where CrankyFool crossed the line from reviewing to preaching. In my opinion, of course.

Re:What an interesting opening to a review

[Chasuk]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

I read reviews to help me winnow the wheat from the chaff. I read a lot of books, and I watch a lot of films, and I'd prefer that those experiences are pleasurable. If I know in advance, before getting deep into the review, that the reviewer thinks that Alan Dean Foster and Marion Zimmer Bradley are the best-fucking-authors-in-the-world, then I will also know that, if he likes the book he is reviewing, I'll probably hate it.

I think Barry Norman and Roger Ebert are the two best film critics in the world. Why? Because they consistently recommend films that I enjoy. On the other hand, if Harry Knowles likes a film, I'll know that it sucks. Well, usually. He is such an unabashed fanboy that someties our opinions coincide.

Anyway, the point is, knowing what a reviewer thinks about other, similar films and books is a help, not a hindrance, and boosts the reviewers usefulness and credibility, if you use that inforamtion wisely.

Re:What an interesting opening to a review

[dillon_rinker]

Because so very much of sci-fi is excrable
I would postulate that 90% of all writing is crap. Several conclusions your comments and this postulate.
(1) You read a lot of science fiction and realize that 90% of it is crap
(2) You don't read a representative sample of anything else (Otherwise, you'd know that 90% of everything is crap and that science fiction is no different)
(3) From (2), it follows that EITHER (a) You don't don't read much except for science fiction, OR (b) You read a lot that's not science fiction, but only what others recommend (and people don't recommend crap)

From other statements you make, I infer that (3)(a) is not true; thus (3)(b) must be the case. Outside of science fiction, you only read what's recommended to you - from best seller lists, Oprah, your boss ("Who Move My Cheese?"), all your friends, etc.

My recommendation, therefore, is that you become a literary adventurer. Exercise some independence - don't just read what everyone else is reading! Go out there and mine the stacks for good books. Tell other people about the arcane gems you find - "She can't write a good protagonist to save her life, but her minor characters make it all worthwhile." "The plot sucks, but the setting blows away everything else written in the 20th century." "Why isn't everyone reading this guy? He's AWESOME!"

Have fun. Oh, and quit judging the folks over in the romance section. 90% of it may be crap, but there are some GREAT authors writing trashy romance novels.

Harrington

[jpgrimes]

I couldn't agree more about the Honor Harrington series. Its absolutely terrible. Sci Fi books commonly have problems with depth of characters but at least in most books there is some. Stephen Donaldson's Gap series is an example of how SciFi should be (although I generally prefer the Fantasy for this reason). Why do people like the Harrington series?

Re:Harrington

[Jhon]

For the same reason why people watch sitcoms -- empty entertainment. For many people, entertainment means not needing to "think".

Re:Harrington

[Zak3056]

Why do people like the Harrington series?

Because it's Horatio Hornblower in space.

It isn't a coincidence that the main chacter serves in the "Royal Navy" and is fighting against an enemy that very strongly resembles France. Or that the title character's initials are HH.

The Harrington series is NOT sci-fi. It's space opera. It has the same appeal that Star Wars does.

Perdido Street Station

[LPetrazickis]

Remember the Naxid? They're insectile (sorry, insectoid), and so do the only thing that an insectile (or insectoid) race is allowed in sci-fi books: They try to take over. All the other races band together to try to beat them.

The Khepri in China Mieville's stellar near-sf steampunk fantasy Perdido Street Station do not try to take over. It's an amazing book. Coincidence? I think not.;)

Of course, there is a different nasty insectoid race in the even better same-universe The Scar, but they gave up on the take-overing millenia before the book.

I highly recommend China Mieville's writings.:)

Don't know about you...

[Neil Blender]

...but I generally don't finish crappy books.

Try before you buy...

[ChrisKnight]

As encouraged by Baen Books, don't blow a wad of money on the Honor Harrington books until you know you are going to like them. How do you know? You read them for free on my website. :)

http://baen.ghostwheel.com/

_IF_ you get hooked, then buy the books.

-Chris

Insectiod races always evil - NOT HARDLY

[wowbagger]

Obviously you've never read any of Alan Dean Foster's Commonwealth novels - the primary 2 races of the Commonwealth are human and thranx, who are insectiod.

AND the thranx are a damn sight "nicer" than the humans.

AND they aren't a "hive mind" or any of that crap - they are individuals.

Re:Insectiod races always evil - NOT HARDLY

[falsification]

Or the Vrusk, from Star Frontiers.

Even better:

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yes, you should buy all these books. They're very good... FOR MY SALES COMMISSION"

Oops, I said the quiet part loud and the loud part quiet.

So basically, the reviewer's an ass

[SerialHistorian]

The book, like this review, is a collection of cliches that aren't necessarily true?

Sheesh.
Oh, and the reason that the Honor Harrington story is told the way it is -- it's a retelling of Horatio Hornblower, which is written the same way. Not everything is sci-fi...

Re:So basically, the reviewer's an ass

[Minwee]

Other possible reasons that Weber writes that way are "People Seem To Like It" and "It Helps Sell Books".

Rumours that "He Enjoys Writing That Kind Of Story" are still unproven.

Guh

[DJTodd242]

I'm glad someone else out there hates Honour Harrington as much as I do. Whenever I find books as bas as that never ending series, I always go back to the Falkenberg universe and sigh as I read about characters who have some motivation and depth.

On that note, who wants to start a petition to get Jerry to take a pause from writing Janissaires novels and get back to a book or two about the time between the Seccesion wars and the 2nd Empire?

More Dimensions = Better

[spezz]

See in a Science Fiction book review when I read "one dimensional character" I tend to take it literally.

Maybe that's why I liked Diaspora so much, for a while some of the characters go 5 dimensional and start moving in ways that'll give you a headache.

The main site

[Hal The Computer]

All of the Books Baen gives away for free can be found at the Baen Free Library.

David Weber, the Honor Harrington series consists of:
Book 1: On Basilisk Station
Book 2: Honor of the Queen
Book 3: A Short Victorious War
Book 4: Field of Dishonor
Book 5: Flag in Exile
Book 6: Honor Among Enemies
Book 7: In Enemy Hands
Book 8: Echoes of Honor
Book 9: Ashes of Victory
Book 10: War of Honor

But what does honestpuck think?

[stratjakt]

I'll tell you:

<BEGIN BOILERPLATE>
This book is about space and science. It is fiction. It is very interesting and published by the good folks at McGraw Hill. I give it a 9 out of 10 because the picture on the cover isnt so good.
<END BOILERPLATE>

Weber writes military sci-fi books, get over it

[brian0x00FF]

I have read the first six Honor Harrington books and I find the books interesting and quite enjoyable. The plots are not the same. I also enjoyed Weber's The Apocalypse Troll. (I find mentioning the Troll book very appropriate to this little review).

It would seem that the reviewer, who did not enjoy the books, yet read more than one. And the reviewer, who could navigate across country, yet could not find a single book seller along the way to find more appropriate reading, should seek help.

The relation. . .

[PhxBlue]

Read on to see what this has to do with Walter Jon Williams newest book, Dread Empire's Fall: the Praxis.

<Dark Helmet Voice> Absolutely nothing! </Dark Helmet Voice>

What I liked

[Hal The Computer]

What I found interesting was the entire system of government that Weber sets up. On the original planet, he creates a parlimentry democracy with power balanced between The Queen, The House of Lords (aristocrats desecneded from the original settlers), and The House of Commons(elected representatives of the people). (Can you say British Parlimentry with a twist?) On a more feudal planet Honor Harrington is one of 72 Steadholders (a feudal lord with the power of life and death). Thier evil(TM) enemies are the republicans, who have a quasi-communist society that borrows names shamelessly from revolutionary france. Despite this it all blends together and seems workable.

I find the idea that a futuristic society could consist of something other than a Planetary Council/Senate/clone of modern american system very interesting. And I do feel you're being just a touch unfair with the one-dimensional concept, I actaully enjoyed reading all of them.

actually, it is!

[mekkab]

It sets a comparison point.

If you like Honor Harrington, you will most definitely ignore the reviewer, and you may even enjoy this book!

THis is actually a genius reference point.

Re:Wow, what a piece of junk

[Greedo]

How many book reviews have you read lately? Starting a review by setting up a point of comparison is pretty standard practice. Don't blame the author for /.'s way of posting the first paragraph as a overview.

And "review" is not synonymous with "loved it". The review called what he thought was a spade a spade, and did it in a fairly amusing-yet-informative manner.

I'm not one for sci-fi, personally, but i imagine anyone who is, and who shares the crappy opinion of the Weber books, will appreciate this review-cum-warning.

(p.s. and /. editors usually add personal venting ... you haven't been here long, have you?)

Sequel already out

[lxdbxr]

Maybe this is his newest book in the USA, over here the sequel is already out: The Sundering (got that link of WJW's page).

I find myself agreeing with much of the review (cardboard cutout characters getting killed or surviving in predictable ways), but at the same time I really enjoyed the book. I particularly liked the way that, since the Shaa had restricted various sorts of tech, you could zap around between stars at FTL via the fixed wormholes, but once in a system were stuck with relativistic physics (and no nanotechnology or AI to help out).

One point I think the review missed - the reason that the characters manage to survive against vastly superior odds is that neither side have any idea how to conduct a space battle - no enemy apart from the Shaa has a fleet of any size or control of the wormholes, so all the actions in the illustrious thousands-year history of the grand Shaa spacefleet have basicallly been bombarding planets into submission from orbit. This is brought out more in the sequel.

Could have lived without the rant about the series by a different author (but I haven't read the Honor Harrington stuff so maybe it was relevant).

Worst Author Ever Award

[butane_bob2003]

this is a little offtopic but no more so than the rant at the beginning of this book review, which reminded me of the worst book/author ever.

The worst book ever: Lord Foul's Bane by Stephen Donaldson
This is the worst peice of crap ever published (and I have been known to enjoy books based on the game DOOM). The main character is a middle aged leper of all things, who is the most despicable character in the whole story. Starting at about page 2, I was hoping someone would come along and put him out of his misery. The character is filled with self pity and has no heroic qualities at all. At the pinnicle of his despicability, he actually rapes a teenaged girl who saves his life early in the story. It seemed to me that the author thought it would be OK for the main character to be a self-pitying rapist with no moral fiber. On top of that, the entire story is a complete rip off of the LOTR trilogy, except that near the end, our main character finds himself back in suburbia wondering if the whole thing was a dream. It's just badly written, I couldn't read the whole thing once I found out the main character does not die the bloody, painful death he deserves. Since then, I have stayed away from cheap paperback sci-fi and fantasy. I hope my brain is never again tainted by the scribblings of talentless human typewriters.

Re:Worst Author Ever Award

[Gramie2]

It's too bad you missed all the symbolism (much overt, far more oblique). The entire series is allegory; in fact, it's about the most theological set of books this side of C.S. Lewis.

Given that, it's rather amusing that you are outraged at, and want to kill, a character who is clearly a Christ figure, for not living up to your expectations of what a saviour/hero should be. Kind of what happened to Him, too.

Re: Worst Author Ever Award

[Mouth of Sauron]

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one of those stories that you either hate or love. Obviously you are in the hate category, but those of us in the love category tend to think those in the hate category really didn't get it.

For those not familiar with the books, the story revolves around one Mister Thomas Covenant, author and husband in contemporary America. He seems to have everything one could ask for, a loving wife, a newborn son, and a best selling novel. However, things start to unravel as success is not everything it's cracked up to be. His wife takes his son for an extended visit to see the relatives and Covenant begins on his second book. His wife returns to see that he has not taken care of himself, and he has appeared to have a gangrenous sore on his hand. A trip to the doctor verifies the wound as the first stage of leprosy -- at which point his life comes crashing down around him.

After spending months in a leprosarium, Covenant returns to his little town to discover he is an outcast. His neighbors pay all his bills, deliver groceries to his doot, etc. Out of sheer will to surive Covenant walks to town to pay his telephone bill, and on the return trip sees a strangely dressed beggar. Covenant nearly gives him his wedding ring out of disgust, but is refused, and goes on about his business. Just as he is crossing the street he hears sirens and is hit by a patrol car.

He wakes up, not in the hospital, but in a cave where he meets the the Cavewight Drool Rockworm who has summoned him from his world with the Staff of Law. Covenant, of course, believes he is hallucinating... and the story goes on from there.

In Lord Foul's Bane, and the other two in the trilogy The Illearth War and The Power That Preserves, tell of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever in this trials throughout The Land, a fantasy world populated by wights and giants and men. Covenant is called 'unbeliever' because he refuses to accept what he sees at face value -- the strange world around him -- and goes slightly mad at the prospect of being magically healed of an incurable disease. He bears a weapon of great power, his wedding ring of white gold, something altogether unlike anything else in the Land, which is part of its power. Like the Lord of the Rings often the story centers around the ring of white gold and there is an evil lord seeking it and to destroy the Land. That is where the similarity ends, however, and much in this novel is, well, novel.

I disagree that the books are badly written. On the contrary, Butane Bob's hatred of the books and the main character are not by chance but by design. Thomas Covenant is, without a doubt, the most un-heroic and dislikeable character in fantasy fiction. He would be pitiable if he weren't such an ass. But as I said, it is not because the books are poorly written or because the author's concept is weak. No, these books are remarkable and intriguing, yet uncomfortable to read. Finishing them requires an effort of will, not unlike the effor of will the main character exerts to maintain his sanity. If you, dear reader, pick up these books do not expect a light and fluffy reading experience filled with tales of heroic deeds and comic relief. No, this is a story of woe, the protagonist is an anti-hero, alternatively pitiable and despicable, and his magical ring remains unscrutable, beyond the ken of the character in question.

Though it is difficult for me to say I enjoyed reading these books, I can honestly say that I am not unmoved by the story. I feel I have accomplished something by making it through to the other side but unsure that I am the same. One of the qualities of Great Books is that the reader is moved. In some stories, one is moved in faith such as in the Chronicles of Narnia, or moved to love and modesty such as the Lord of the Rings, or even to despair such as from The Brothers Karamazov. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are not comfortable books. After reading them you will not feel happy, or content, or with peace of mind. But you will feel. The sensation of negative enormity is great in this book, yet not without a kernel of hope. Not without a small satisfaction after a great loss. A silver lining this cloud has, if you can weather the storm.

Cheers.

I read every last crappy page.

[twitter]

I generally don't finish crappy books.

I do and that's why reviews like this are great to have. I just keep reading, hoping something will happen to redeam it. Once in a while, I'm rewarded, and I'm usually just reading myself to sleap anyway. I would never have started reading the Weber book I just finished had I read this review first. The review will, however, save me the pain of reading another Weber book or this particular Willson book. His review hit Weber on the head, so I trust the reviewer's opinion of this book by Willson. There's better stuff to read.

Re:I read every last crappy page.

[aWalrus]

I just keep reading, hoping something will happen to redeam it

I'm worse than that. I read "Interview with the Vampire" and found it mildly interesting, then went on to "The vampire Lestat" which I really liked... Then came "The Queen of the Damned", which I hated. That threw me into an unstoppable loop of having to read Anne Rice's books, looking for some quality of redemption, and finding each more execrable than the one before. It took something like 6 more of her books to make me come off it. I can't so much as glance sideways at a Rice book now without shivering...

Please don't slander space opera that way

[edremy]

Space opera is not just Star Wars; that's a very weak version of it.

Space opera is also Banks, Simmons, Renyolds, Vinge or any of a half dozen other authors who can write complex, involved plots with great characters and subtle themes.

Harrington, Star Wars and similar stuff is more properly pulp SF

HH books: recommended

[steveha]

I enjoyed the Honor Harrington books. You might, too, if you enjoy reading about heroic people doing heroic things. Honor Harrington is a heroic character: she isn't perfect, but she feels a strong sense of duty and does her best to do her duty. And her best turns out to be very good indeed.

If you are at all interested in the Honor Harrington books, check out the Baen Free Library. The first book is On Basilisk Station. (That link is to the HTML version; there are several downloadable versions as well.)

Take a look and decide for yourself whether these books are for you.

steveha

Re:hits the nail on the head for me.

[barc0001]

Oh I don't know about that. I'll admit Weber's not my favorite author, but the first couple of books were fine. The Basilisk Station book in particular. It was the first book from the Baen free library I tried. But after the first couple, he seemed to develop Robert Jordan-itis, where what could easily be said in a hundred pages took three hundred instead. King is much the same way as well.
I think the problem is these folks get popular, sell a bunch of books, and then their editors get scared to cut anything, so the books get longer and longer with less meat per page...

In defense of Honor Harrington

[Animats]

By space opera standards, Honor Harrington is quite good. E.E. "Doc" Smith's "Lensman" series, the first space opera, has truly one-dimensional characters. Smith is remembered for the scale of his writings; others wrote about single trips to the Moon; Smith wrote about intergalactic empires. He single-handedly scaled up science fiction.

Weber's characters have strengths and weaknesses. Honor isn't perfect. She has more character flaws than any hero from Star Trek or Star Wars. She's into revenge, and makes some mistakes because of it.

Her real strength is tactics. That makes sense; she's in a navy that trains and selects for tactical skill. She doesn't get that skill by magic; she goes to the Academy and works her way up to command over many years.

The Peep leaders are Weber's most complex characters. Some of them are boors, yet even Warden Tresca plays chess by mail. The Peep military commanders are in tough positions, caught between their political masters and military realities, and deal with them in different ways. Most just do their jobs. One or two go over to the Manty side. Some die for the People's Republic. Some try a coup. Rod Pierre (oh, please) has a tiger by the tail and can't let go; he's portrayed as ruthless but not evil.

Weber is writing for people who know what Jellicoe did at Jutland. Battle charts wouldn't seem out of place in Weber's books. Fortunately, like Tom Clancy, he has the sense to avoid them.

It's unusual to see tactical skill in SF. Usually, there's too much individual heroism and not enough planning. Historically, it's hard to find any example where individual heroism changed the outcome of a major war. But it happens all the time in fiction. David Drake gets this, and he's gradually been pulling SF around.

Tactics in print SF are bad enough, but in movie SF, they're appalling. Nobody in the Star Wars universe has any decent tactical sense. On either side. Much like World War I. Dune. Starship Troopers. Battlefield Earth. The list of bad examples goes on.

I used to be a fan...

[big_a]

I used to be a pretty big Walter Jon Williams fan. I really enjoyed Hardwired, Voice of the Whilwind, and (to some extent) Angel Station. I also enjoyed The Crown Jewels and The House of Shards. All of the above mentioned book were released between 1987 and 1989 (i.e. the heyday of CyberPunk.)

As far as the SciFi goes, I felt they were pretty good books. Maybe not classics, but certainly very good. Williams presented some interesting variations on the CyberPunk theme and I felt his books compared favorably to other stuff being released at the time. However, starting with Days of Atonement (or maybe Aristoi) I felt that his "vision" started going downhill.

At first I thought, maybe I just resented his moving away from CyberPunk. His first couple books could be loosely classified as CyberPunk, however, few of his books have any sort of consistent "world" or "environment". It's pretty clear that WJW like to play around and invent different "world" for almost every book.

But then I realized that the different "worlds" had started taking precedence over the "characters". The characters started becoming imminently forgettable, they were just there to populate this new world he'd invented. The biggest problem is that some of the worlds are interesting (Hardwired, Voice of the Whilwind,) and some are not (Metropolitan, City on Fire).

I actually felt that DEF:tP is better than some of his more recent attempts. However, there were still times I was tempted to just put it down and forget it... :)

Honor Harrington is an oater set in space.

[crovira]

It has never pretended verisimilitude, veracity or anything else.

It's mindless entertainment.

In this respect its like the ol' Horatio Hornblower pulp. Or the "Roman de Cap et d'Epee (like reading "The Three Musketeers" in the original French) that my dad used to read. I use hooked on the "Doc Savage" pap and the Poul Anderson "Polesotechnic league" books that I knocked off one a night.

Or how about Jimmy Digriz a.k.a. "The Stainless Steel Rat."

If its NOT your style, don't review it.

You bought the whole series without reading one first? I must say that you're an idiot. I definitely don't want to trust any of your reviews.

Re:hits the nail on the head for me.

[fucksl4shd0t]

The reviewer doesn't trust me at all. I'm hooked on Honor Harrington right now. :) I also read Weber's Mutineer's Moon and couldn't put it down. I don't know where the reviewer concluded that the main characters are flawless two dimensional characters. Honor's flaws come out a lot. She has a low self-esteem because she thinks she's not pretty (granted, this is normal for a woman). She's also pretty smart, but not so good with math. She has a quick temper that she struggles to keep under control (she loses it a few times here and there and it's always entertaining). She is a good leader and her people love her, but she makes mistakes. I'm on her side in The Honor of the Queen. It's entirely her fault that Admiral Corvosieur bit the big one (It happens in the first third of the book, so this isn't a spoiler), and I liked that guy! The thorough discussion of sexism in that book was good, although I do think he dropped the ball a little bit on it. The thing you can't tell about him, though, and I like it, is "who is he going to kill next?". In Basilish Station he spent most of the book delving deeply into all of the top characters (mostly the officers, since the main theme was leadership), then he kills over half of them! He wasn't nearly as bloodthirsty in the second book, though, I noticed.

Anyway, his characters may be a tad on the stereotypical side, but they're not two dimensional. Sure, they always pull through in the end. Characters that don't are either the antagonists, or the book is referred to under a very specific genre (I forget what it's called, but it's the one with the anti-heros, where the bad guys usually win or they end in draws or whatever).

Hell, even Corwin pulled through in the end for the sake of Amber. At least Weber didn't create the Heinlein SuperMommy. Talk about two dimensional....

I also think the GPs comment about Weber and David Drake was totally off the mark. Heh. The only writing David Drake ever got right was when he was collaborating with Eric Flint. :)

You missed the point

[DrVomact]

Comparing Dread Empire's Fall (DEF) to the execrable Honor Harrington series is a low blow indeed. But I think maybe the reviewer was in a bad mood when he read this book--he seems to have missed a lot of the subtleties. Or perhaps he should read more slowly.

Walter Jon Williams is something of a chameleon as an author. In fact, he seems to have challenged himself to write each of his books in a different style. If you were to pick up a copy of Hardwired, Aristoi, and Day of Atonement with the covers ripped off, I don't think you'd guess that all three books were written by the same author. Not only are Williams' books usually set in different universes, but his writing style changes to match the setting.

DEF is Williams doing High Space Opera. He uses all the familiar tropes, and cliches, and he does it quite consciously. Indeed, on one level this is a parody of the genre. Doesn't it strike you as slightly funny that the captain of a mighty space dreadnought should devote its entire resources to producing a winning football team? That the Evil Insectoid Aliens (actually, I thought they were kinda like squids--but hey, anything with more than 2 arms is equivalent to an insectoid) pull off their coup de main by holding a sports festival and then rounding up the participants? --It had me ROFL.

And there are surprises hidden underneath the well-worn space opera trappings. The plot isn't as simple as the reviewer seems to think. Yes, you should have a good idea by mid-book that Sula is a shady Lady. But this is precisely what I thought was so clever about Williams' portrayal of this character: you think you know what Sula did (I'm going to try to stay away from spoilers)...but the full impact of it doesn't hit you until Williams actually takes you to the scene of the crime (in a flashback scene). At least, that was the effect of the narrative on me: I felt very different about Sula at the end of the book than I did three fourths of the way through. Williams gives you an intellectual understanding of Lady Sula early on, but it is only when you witness the act and then understand her motivation for fighting like a demon during the space battle that you feel the emotional impact. And frankly, it sent shivers down my spine. Lady Sula is scary!

At the end, Our Hero receives a little note from Sula. It says something like, "I'm coming to meet you now. We are destined to be together, and we are going to make an irresistible team". If you have read the book, what did you feel when you read that note? I felt spooky...and I felt pity for Our Hero. Compared to her, he's a naif. He's hamburger to her meat-grinder.

I'm dying to read the follow-on books not because I want to see if the Good Guys defeat the Evil Insectoid Aliens (come on!), but whether Our Hero survives Lady Sula.

Re:hits the nail on the head for me.

[Kaboom13]

God, whenever some cool computer hobby or TV comes up, some jackass spouts off about how we should all go read a book in a smug arragont tone. Now when someone decides to read a book, we get jackasses telling him to go outside. What's next? Are we only allowed to spend our free time jogging while drinking 100% natural wheatgrass smoothies and chatting on our cell phones about the hot dates we have planned tonight? People have different tastes. Some people like vacations exciting, others have quite enough excitement in our everyday lives and just like to relax. I think you need to take your advice, and go outside and find someone who thinks your opinion matters.