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Sun Negotiating With Wal-Mart Over Java Desktop
An anonymous reader writes "According to an EWeek article, Sun is challenging Microsoft on a new front: the consumer market. Believing its Java Desktop System is "a more effective home and retail solution," the company is negotiating with major retailers Wal-Mart and Office Depot to include the Java desktop on consumer PCs and laptops."
...is in John Mitchell's blog.
As he says, 'Did you notice how little actual Java there is in the "Java Desktop System"?'
The Army reading list
That they are going to make more money off Linux than they ever possibly could off Solaris, do a complete about face, and proclaim 'Linux is the best choice for the server as well as the desktop, and Solaris is `legacy` technology.'
I give it a till June next year.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
They're not going to use Lindows. SJD seems to actually emphasize quality over gimmick.
not that "Java Desktop" is gimmick-free... just call it GNOME, damnit!
The idea of Wal Mart selling PCs with an OS to compete with Windows appeals to me. But it can, conceivably, open up a whole host of other problems.
Case in point: My retired aunt and uncle bought a computer based primarily on price. Presuming that the Java-OS computers are cheap, then many people who have never bought a computer will be like my aunt and uncle and buy this computer as their first PC.
What happens when they visit their local techie goods retailer and look for card games, or photo editors, or even hardware like printers, scanners, or digital cameras? Suddenly, things don't work like they're supposed to, and auntie and uncle get upset and call in their nephew to fix things.
The point is this: The hardware is irrelevant. For most people, hardware is nothing more than nails, tacks, and screws. Software is what matters. Unless Wal Mart has Java-OS-specific software right next to the PCs, and can sufficiently educate consumers that Eudora won't install on their computer, then we'll have problems.
(Mind, this diatribe is based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the Java OS. But all thoughts apply regardless.)
Another hardware platform to hack after it fails miserably in the market and I can buy them for $40.
Wal-Mart sells PCs with Lindows on them from their website. They're supposed to be a decent seller, so they probably aren't adverse to the idea.
I remember dealing with Home Shopping Network a couple of years ago. Their biggest seller was computers, but it was also their biggest return. People just couldn't figure them out properly.
For most people, PCs are just too complicated. They try to please all of the people all of the time, and fail miserably.
Sun might be on to something. Time to check up on their stock.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
OK, so they're naming something not-very-java-ish "Java Desktop" to capitalize on the Java name.
But look at the COMMENTS in this thread, even so far! Look at all the posts going "eww, JAVA? for a DESKTOP?". Java is NOT a name with positive connotations. Everyone "knows" that Java is slow, clunky, and jittery. Of course, the only time they've ever directly used a Java app was AWT applets running on Netscape 4 ages and ages ago, but that's still the perception I think most people have.
Java, from an end-user perspective, was blitzed out before it or the VMs were even remotely ready, was oversold in the embedded-in-web-browsers area (where it ran like crap) and undersold as a facilitator of cross-platform application development (where it ran almost acceptably), was pushed in everyone's face in the form of poorly designed pre-Swing applets, and then quietly retreated completely from the end-user space. This is the last memory most people have of Java (even if it's the woman in wal-mart going "oh, Java? I think I remember that from that email forward from my grandson? that's the thing that makes animations that blink a lot, isn't it?") and outside of the community of programmers and people who know what a "servlet" is, it probably currently has negative mindshare.
Is Sun actually thinking "Hmm, 'Java Desktop System', that's a name people can trust"?
Or is the idea that they now trying to rehabilitate Java's brandname by attatching it to a product that (one can only hope) is actually worthwhile and usable?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
If it means I can go out and buy a cheap computer that can handle email, WWW, word processing and printing, then I think it is good. For lots of people that would be a very good deal. If I bought such a computer - for how long time would it serve my fathers needs without maintenance?
10 years?
This f***ing business needs to grow up and deliver mature technology.
I have no idea if Suns Java Desktop is the right way to go - but if simplicity and end-user-needs are in mind I think it is a step in the right direction.
Also, IF it would be successful we would see yet another OS (as in commercial product) running on ordinary PC hardware that does not feature all the DRM-shit that MS says they'll put in Longhorn. For hacking c-code any stable and open system will do.
This proposed Walmart deal strikes me as exactly what Red Hat would be trying to do, if they were remaining in the market as a consumer distribution. The article doesn't even attempt to define the Java Desktop System (hence the above links), so there's really nothing in the way of comments as to how good the thing is.
Also, does the "Java" in the name of this product really mean that the desktop is in fact written in Java? I can't imagine that's the case, or why it would be desirable. But one analyst quoted in the article seems to take it as a given that this thing is written in Java:
I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system...If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft.
From what I can see, if this deal comes to pass, Walmart may soon be selling Linux based systems with a highly polished front end, equipped with a suite of office/internet software that does everything an entry-level buyer could want. Seems to me that this would be a big step up from people buying XP boxes. It would increase the market share of Linux, and result in way more Linux software being developed.
So I have two questions. If anyone here has used the Java Desktop System, what do you think? And does anyone see any real downside to Linux if this deal is made?
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
since they are hardly even business friendly.
,of course, asked me again for all hte detials i had alreayd painstakingly sent them. Then.. I get a call from a guy actually at SUN who was supposedly in charge of ".com stuff". He asked if I had talked to anyone else. I said no. He said he knew I had, because all the resellers report to him. Then he a) quashed a deal with one reseller I was going to buy from, telling them the pricing they were giving me would end up getting them in shit with sun.
The problem, I find, with Sun salespersons, is that they are generally of the opinion that Sun is the supreme god of everything, and that everything not sun is garbage.
I have called sun several times in the past, with a clear, precise list of what I need to buy from them. I explain to them what I want, that I am familiar with all of their services and equipment, and that I really only need what I am asking for. They still manage to waste DAYS worth of time trying to convince me to replace other stuff with sun gear... despite the fact that the sun gear can't come close to doing what I want. Example: Fileserver
I was about to purcahse a 50 gig NetApp NAS box... the sun guy tried to sell me on some sun fileserver.
The pros/cons
NetApp - Hardware raid on FC drives. Filesystem that takes snapshots. Netapp gave me performance stats for NFS ops/sec, etc.
Sun: Software raid on scsi drives. Smaller array. No snapshots. Could not give me any specs on throughput, etc.
Now.. come on. I can appreciate trying to push your company's products.. that's their job.. but you lose a lot of credibility when you try to convince me to use GARBAGE in place of what I want, just because it's not yours.
Example #2: I was about to purchase about $300,000 in sun gear for an E-commerce type setup... I called several vendors. I had my hardware list DECIDED, based on current offerings. Took the resellers almost 3 weeks to get back to me. They gave me some okay quotes... each,
b) Offerred to set up my whole system for me and guarantee it, on the condition that I let them purchase ALL SUN hardware, including swtiches, etc, and could not mess with it.
c) Wanted me to say OKAY to this without showing me a quote. His point was that if he showed me the quote, I could just use that as my system specs and build it myself.
Now.. tha'ts kind of messed up, but he sort of has a point. So I tell him "Look, there is no way in hell I'm committing to anything without full disclosure from you, sorry, what are you thinking". He sends me his specs.
They are MY specs, minus a few items, but it COSTS more.
So what the hell, he's accusing me of potentially stealing his plans when he already SAW mine, and they were just like his?
I started as a perfect customer. We were ready to wire the money immediately if they had just simply GIVEN us a quote for what we asked for. Instead, they fucked around for a month, and ended up losing the sale totally.
I diligently mailed him, his superious, and all the resellers to point out how this guy had totally fucked up for sun.
I also went to a SUN meeting one time.. they wanted to demonstrate the SunRAY stuff (which is cool) and also some windows file sharing stuff. They pointed out how it was way better than samba because it was based on real NT code that they had a license to. Now.. this was all fine and great. Except.. it also contained the NT bugs (for compatability). Okay.. I can understand that. I start asking about how I can integrate this with unix stuff.. are the ACLs in text files? Like, why would I actually want this over an NT server? His answer? Nope, you can't really do anything like that.. it's JUST like using windows, isnt' that great? Except it's on a SUN, so it won't crash. You mean the application won't crash? Oh yes, it will.. he means the computer won't crash.
Sun has made some cool stuff in the past.. and I used to really respect them.. but after trying to deal with them on multiple occassions, I feel they really need to get their heads out of their asses and start dealing with reality.
Yeah, that caught my eye too. Here's the text of a letter I just sent eWeek, to express my disgust at their quality of journalism:
.Net developers I work with know this. So glaring that I can only think of 2 reasons this made into this article: you were duped or you are actively involved in a campaign to discredit the system.
"I am writing you to point out some inaccuracies in your article, posted on your site today:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1406463,00. as p
More specifically, these paragraphs:
"At the same time, some users are painting Sun with the same proprietary brush they say applies to Microsoft and its products. An IT manager, who asked not to be named, said he could not understand why a user would trade one proprietary desktop for another.
"I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."
This is clearly FUD by this so-called IT manager, who does not want to be identified, likely because he works for Microsoft.
Firstly, equating this as a "proprietary solution" and "no better than Microsoft" is absolutely false. The Sun Java Desktop is essentially Suse Linux with the latest version of GNOME desktop and Evolution and the latest J2SE environment included. All free, both as in beer and as in speech. All open source. Most certainly NOT a proprietary solution. Since I have the know-how, I could put this exact desktop system together for nothing, and it would work exactly like Sun's offering. The Sun Java Desktop system in Wal-Mart is aimed at people like my mom. But that doesn't make it proprietary. I can still add all of the various opensource libraries and programs to it as if it were just a stock Suse or RedHat or Debian install.
This so-called IT manager keeps Java off his desktop because it crashes the system. This is a blatant lie. As Java runs in it's own sandbox, if a Java program crashes, it cannot possibly take down a system. I have only seen this happen when using the Java Native Interface, which is RARELY used by most Java desktop applications. But saying that also seems to indicate that the desktop it self is unstable and written in Java. Guess what? Calling it the 'Java Desktop System' is a marketing ploy by Sun for this because it goes along with it's Java Enterprise System (which does use quite a bit of Java and certainly doesn't "crash the system"). The Java Desktop Sustem is written 99% in C with an embedded JVM so you can run various Java - based desktop programs as if they were native. This is exactly what Apple does on the Mac OSX. And Sun already donates many of their projects and code to open source projects (like Open Office, the free version of Star Office). So I guess then Sun does have the interests of it's customers in mind!
These errors are GLARING for developer and managers that actually work with Java and Linux/Unix on a daily basis. Actually, it's GLARING for anybody that works in IT - most of the
The so-called IT manager, is not in fact a manager. He's one of your hacks - you needed a bit of controversy so you got someone to say this, and used the anonymity to cover it up. Or worse, he's a shill for Microsoft, trying to discredit what is clearly a technological and marketing threat to Microsoft's supremacy on the desktop. The whole section essentially says "Why bother, it's unstable, it's not free. I 'm a professional at this and I wouldn't do it so you shouldn't too." and it's aimed at people who wouldn't know better - people who shop at Wal-Mart. So, did you check this guy's allegations with other "IT Managers"? Did you check his background and credentials? Is that why he would prefer not to be named - because he really doesn't know what he's talking about. I suspect he's the "IT manager" (read office administrator) at your office, so he knows about Windows but nothing else.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
I think what they're trying to do here is set up a system with which the easiest way to get new applications is to get new Java applications through JWS.
If you haven't used JWS, go and install the plugin and try it out. A friend of mine wrote a class diagram / UML tool called The Virtual Bar Napkin. If you have JWS installed, you can hit the link on his webpage and the application is running in a few seconds.
He didn't have to write an installer, or deal with a page saying "for this version, click here, for that version, click there".
And to clarify, It is not an applet. It's an application, running in its own window, etc. Furthermore, it is actually installed on your system, and you can access it later through the regular menu system (on windows) without having to be connected to the net. Upgrading to new versions is just as trivial.
JWS is a great example of the promise of Java. Write your client application, distribute it seamlessly, update it in near real time, and avoid all the nonsense with servlets and sessions and HTML + javascript web interface nightmare.
So long as this gets us closer to that, I'm interested.
-Zipwow
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
These things aren't being sold in Wal-Mart stores. They're only available online.
Maybe the target market is businesses that want to run Sun JD (or other Linux distro) and aren't big enough to get Dell to sell them PC's without Windows.
There are enough *real* Linux customers out there that are not being served by the majors. Could this be Wal-Mart's way of going after Dell in the small business market that they've owned for too long now?
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...