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"Forking" Greatest Danger of Adopting Open Source?

TTL0 writes "In response to recent descisions in favour of Open Source in Israel (see here and here),Dr. Robert M. Sauer of the Department of Economics at Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and president of the Jerusalem Institute for Market Studies. has written a article saying that the hidden costs of OS add up to a higher TCO. However, The greater danger Sauer writes, is that of a OS project forking. "The forking of open-source projects occurs when passionate disputes between open-source software developers over product design lead to the splintering of projects into a multitude of varieties. With proprietary software, forking generally does not take place since development is centralized within a firm and disciplined by market forces."" I've always seen Forking as something of a blessing... it's the abandoned projects are the ones that are in danger.

92 of 471 comments (clear)

  1. Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by aheath · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Does anyone know the link to the article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer that is mentioned in the story?

    1. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by ankit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, open source is not perfect. But forking is one of the reasons why I use open source! Its all about choice.

      --
      Don't Panic
    2. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by passthecrackpipe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, not because open source is perfect, but because the guy is plainly an idiot who doesn't know what he is talking about, Dr. or no Dr. Forking is extremely healthy -- look, for example, at the Apache project. Apache is in a continous state of forking, with bits falling off and bits being tacked on all the time. For example, IBM will take a specific version of Apache, create a fork, put it in Websphere, and after some time, trickle some changes back to the Apache project.

      Clearly, Apache is a massive example of a successful Open Source project.

      As the other poster rightly asked: "how much did he get paid by MS?"

      --
      People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
    3. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by tim_bissell · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thank goodness no link was posted... how could we sensibly comment on it if we had RTFAed?

    4. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Valid criticism is one thing, but forking? Not a major problem in my life.

      Linus credits the GPL (as opposed to other open-source licenses) for preventing fragmentation:

      I personally think that the BSD license is a dead end for serious projects, since it inevitably results in forking with no way to re-join if it becomes commercially viable.
      Perhaps he has a point, because none of the GPL OSS I use has been spoiled by forking.
    5. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by diersing · · Score: 3, Funny
      I prefer forking, my wife on the other hand would rather spoon.

      Forking does provide choice, but too many splits can lead to too many dilluted or feature-less versions versus a relatively singular tree which would include features from all contributors.

    6. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by Gyan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      how could we sensibly comment on it if we had RTFAed?

      I think the danger that thr Dr. refers to is pretty guessable and might not require the article. The danger is not the forking, per se, but the diversion of talent that occurs. In a centralized undemocratic closed system, there are fixed goals at a certain point. As it progresses, due to constraints (human, time, budget, technical..etc), compromises have to be reached. Not everyone will agree with those compromises, but professional discipline dictates that they remain focused and continue. In a GPLed project, if a segment of your talent pool has different ideas about the end goals, they might fork in the middle and deprive your original project of their talent, fragmenting the development effort. You might not necessarily regain an equivalent pool of talent towards your project even if it can be proven to someone interested that your goals are better/more feasible..etc. There is no fiat by which to impose discipline in an open system.

    7. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by kribor · · Score: 2, Informative

      What about OpenOffice and MySQL ? Those are OS projects that supply what most businesses need. In the US, most businesses are small businesses. MS Office is for most of them, the extent of their automation, so I think the combo of OO/MySql is a decent example.

      Also, Tomcat offers a viable alternative to Websphere for most application scenarios, if you are budget conscious. Not to mention that any savings you might realize with a MS solution initially may evaporate if you have to scale your architecture up for more capacity.

      I do, however, agree with your closing premise. Not everyone that is concerned with support is a shill for Microsoft. Some of them are shills for RedHat :-)

      --
      "You can never win or lose if you don't run the race"
    8. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, the singular tree you mention often will contain only a limited set of those extra features that might be developed with forking. I personally believe that forking allows a much greater choice of features that then can battle it out (in a Darwinian sense) to see which are worthy of pursuit and, perhaps, merger back into the main branch.

      Now, how does this translate into a danger for poeple using OSS? Why, by providing more choice! Is his whole argument the same old saw that customers don't want choice? That, no matter how bad the single implementation may be, it is better to use a bad choice than having to pick among many choices that may be more suitable?

    9. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by Geek+of+Tech · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I thought his fear was that whatever solitare^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H software he is running might be discontinued and him forced to start using another one.

      But isn't the possibility of a fork better than the idea of complete discontinuation (don't even know if that's a word, but you get it....) A project splitting would most likely be better than a project dying...

      I'm still waiting on the upgrade for Microsoft Bob... you'd think they'd have it done by now...

      --
      Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
    10. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by Geek+of+Tech · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Forking is like software evolution. One project may split into two, with slightly different plans. Mostlikely one will surpass the other. Kind of survival of the fittest. If neither one grows over the other, then you have something called choice.

      --
      Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
    11. Re:Link to the Article by Dr. Robert M. Sauer? by mr_mischief · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not to mention that Windows 2000 Professional, Windows 2000 Server, Windows 2000 Terminal Services Edition, Windows 2000 Small Business Edition, and Windows 2000 Embedded all come from Winbdows NT 4. NT 4 was already split into Server and Desktop. They both come from Windows NT 3.51. Before Windows NT, there was Windows and there was OS/2, which was supposed to be the next Windows from a joint MS/IBM team -- until Windows 95 came along to replace OS/2 and trampled on IBM's part of the effort.

      Currently, the Windows 9x branch and the Windows NT branch are reunited, but then split again into Home, Professional, Media Center Edition, and Embedded (possibly among others, I've lost track). Then there's also Windows 2003. And XP and 2003 are both going to have 32 bit and 64 bit versions separately, if I'm not mistaken. And the 64-bit versions are rumored to be released as different releases for Itanium and for AMD64.

      So what's that again about proprietary projects not forking?

  2. Religion by satyap · · Score: 5, Funny

    If forking is acceptable in religion (notwithstanding "mine is the One True" etc.), it should be acceptable in software.

    1. Re:Religion by quandrum · · Score: 4, Funny

      HA! That's the answer!

      Instead of forking projects, we create schisms. Great ideological debates leads to schisms. Egotism leads to forks. Of course, forks lead to pie, so maybe they aren't all bad.

    2. Re:Religion by tomknight · · Score: 4, Funny
      Luke...

      ...use the forks

      Tom.

      --
      Oh arse
    3. Re:Religion by sharkey · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Instead of forking projects, we create schisms.

      And sects. emacs or vi?

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    4. Re:Religion by willtsmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Speaking of religion, let's talk about economics. Specifically, ALL market economists would claim that a diversified, competitive marketplace is GOOD.

      In this case, multiple open source varieties compete to gain over the larger community. The poorer one's are abandoned. Other entrepenuers than take the superior source and innovate on it. It's a perfect market solution. Save one thing ... no one is selling it.

      Of course a Soviet Style software planner would choose the Microsoft model. All code is proprietary and must be approved by the bureau of global dominance.

      I think this economist needs to revisit his messed up models and worship of corporate mega-dominance.

      --
      -------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
  3. Cluck the chicken says... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Sky is falling!!! Watch for falling Bits.

    Havent we had enough of this "dangers of open source" crap?

    --
    1. Re:Cluck the chicken says... by jxs2151 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      ...Havent we had enough of this "dangers of open source" crap?

      Absolutely not! Only through open and honest (painful) discussion of the merits and weaknesses of anything can it be strengthened. If it was too weak in the first place, it will not stand up to the scrutiny- otherwise it will be strengthened.

      Take some time to read this paper for enlightenment on why open discussion by people with differing viewpoints is a good thing.

      Funny thing is that closed source people don't want discussion of their warts...I would think OS would be different.

    2. Re:Cluck the chicken says... by azaris · · Score: 5, Funny

      Havent we had enough of this "dangers of open source" crap?

      Hear hear. Now let's get back to the objective "open-source perl-hack saves world"-reporting.

    3. Re:Cluck the chicken says... by penguinstorm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, yeah - maybe we have. On the other hand, haven't we had enough of this "open source is salvation" thing that seems to come up. I mean, Vancouver's recently municipal elections had a guy running on a platform of Open Source. That was it - his entire platform was that Open Source would solve our budget crisis. I personally thought he, plus the guy who's platform was Naked Vancouver, would have made a great team. So anyway, the Professor here makes a fair point: if a compnay makes a substantial commitment to a piece of open source software that then gets abandoned, there could be real consequences. Of course, the same person probably made a big commitment to Windows 98, which Microsoft is now abandoning to the wolves. I still say: put your money into people whenever you can, not software. It will always pay off in the end.

      --
      Skot Nelson music is my saviour / i was maimed by rock and roll
    4. Re:Cluck the chicken says... by LuYu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      if a compnay makes a substantial commitment to a piece of open source software that then gets abandoned, there could be real consequences.
      What real consequences are you talking about?

      First of all, forking has nothing to do with projects being abandoned. Forking is the opposite of abandonment. It is the equivalent of a cell division. Where you had one cell, now you have two. This reduces the possibility of abandonment as there are two projects that have to be abandoned where there was formerly only one.

      Secondly, and even more importantly, with Open Source or Free Software, if a project is abandoned, you still have the source code. If you still need the project's functionality, you can maintain the code. Projects can only be abandoned if you and everybody else abandones the project (i.e. if nobody wants it). Therefore, "abandonment" is not really abandonment in Free Software.

      This stands in large contrast to closed source software. If Microsoft decides to kill a project, you are SOL. You do not have access to the source code, and even if you did, you would lack the right to modify it or even use it. In fact, MS can even revoke your right to use code that they have already distributed and that you have already paid for if they decide to.

      Open Source or Free Software protect you from being locked out. You can use Free Software forever. Long after there is no market for a particular application, you can still have it for your purposes and customize it to your preferences.

      Free Software is synonymous with free choice and customization. Free Software is software individualism.

      --
      All data is speech. All speech is Free.
  4. forking eh? by alx512 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And how many versions of windows are there?

    1. Re:forking eh? by dasmegabyte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      His argument here is that forking is often a change in direction that means in order to support your product, you need to adapt to one of the two forks. Think of Apache 2.x...completely different from Apache 1.x, to the point that they aren't really compatible -- at least not where modules are concerned. You either had to hang on to Apache 1.x and pray for support or face the reality of the new, get new modules, which in turn means retesting all of your apps, rewriting all of your configs...not a "hard" task by any means, but that's time and energy that could be better spent doing something else.

      Of course, Apache's also a good example of how market forces dicatate the fork that succeeds. Nobody wanted to move to Apache 2.0 at first, despite it having a better interface. So 1.x has undergone numerous revisions and security enhancements, it's still a strong product. Whereas new development has really blossomed for 2.x, as developers realized how much better performance and security were with the new model. The result? Two distince proudcts, two distinct platforms, with no strongarming of the market to move to the latest and greatest for fear of lack of support.

      If Microsoft had this level of commitment, we'd still have customers on Windows 3.x because it was "good enough." They'd still be supporting DOS based OSs like 98 and ME. And XP would be continuously adding features and improving speed, trying to lull development to it.

      All told, it's not as simple as Dr. Sauer's line. Forking does mean increased TCO. But it's as often a symptom of dedicated development as it is of personal bravado. Not that bravado is a reason NOT to fork...if a product is being lead by a short sighted asshole control freak, it's your duty as a citizen in the GPL community to bypass this bottleneck. If you've got the right idea, people will flock to you...otherwise, they've still got the original.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    2. Re:forking eh? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Don't stake your business on a piece of OSS that you aren't sure is going to be around for awhile.
      Same goes for commercial software, fork or no. What if the developing company goes out of business?
      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    3. Re:forking eh? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you do have customers on Win3.1 - think of all those banks that still run it because it does exactly what they want (ie. client apps), and they've rolled it out to hundreds of thousands of desktops.

      Now, the difference is that MS doesn't support that product anymore, it costs too much to maintain that and the others, but the customer is still using it. (note that the cost of upgrade isn't in new licences - so no 'they should get linux posts please', but in the cost of physically rolling it out to all the branches).

      At some point the same thing will happen with OSS - the existing stuff will be used, but not upgraded past any end of support - the customer will be happy though as thwey have the source code and can twiddle it themselves. (which raises an interesting point if, say a bank has OSS product that was superseded by new versions, but modified it to be a niche product, would it still be unsupported?)

    4. Re:forking eh? by RevMike · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Don't stake your business on a piece of OSS that you aren't sure is going to be around for awhile.
      Same goes for commercial software, fork or no. What if the developing company goes out of business?

      When I was working for a major global firm, and we dealt with small closed source development companies, we always had code escrow agreements. If the vendor went out of business or dropped support of the product, we had the ability to get the source and support it ourselves.

    5. Re:forking eh? by GoofyBoy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >we dealt with small closed source development companies, we always had code escrow agreements. If the vendor went out of business or dropped support of the product, we had the ability to get the source and support it ourselves.

      Have you've ever had to do this?

      Small company + out of business = "Here is the code we scraped together, no one left knows how it works or even if its all there. Good Luck and Good Bye!"

      --
      The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
  5. Forking is the survival of the fittest! by mekkab · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I understand that from a purely tactical point of view, splitting your resources is very dangerous when they are thin to begin with.

    However, open source isn't about tactics; its power comes from zealotry. And there is nothing that fires a persons mind up more than a little competition. There are plenty of anecdotes of people being told "You can't do this." and then rising to the occaision just to prove them wrong.

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
    1. Re:Forking is the survival of the fittest! by interiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If splitting your resources is an obvious tactical mistake, then capitalism in general is doomed. We have, nay encourage, multiple companies who work independantly on the same problem (the more the duplication of effort, the better, so they tell me!). Not only that, but they're practically and legally encouraged and helped with government police/judiciary salaries to reduce the amount of cooperation beween them. Pure madness, I say.

    2. Re:Forking is the survival of the fittest! by zmooc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think you're right in saying capitalism is doomed and you're right about what will cause it's doom. Only a bit more is needed to trigger it's fall: robots. Read this story if you're interested in such things; it gives a good indication of what will happen once robots become good enough to replace most jobs (which imho is inevitable) and describes a few scenarios which we might expect. The conclusion is: capitalism is doomed but it might take a few decades.

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    3. Re:Forking is the survival of the fittest! by Pionar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't honestly try to compare DVD players and software development! DVD players are a commodity product anymore. The same rules don't apply to OSS projects. Even in that industry, though, the industry members realize that collaboration on some things is better. That's why there's the DVD Forum. (I believe that's what it's called. It's the group that defines DVD standards.)

      I was making the point that the duplication of efforts among many companies isn't duplication of efforts at all. They aren't going after the same result in marketing and production. If they were, every Linux vendor out there would be shipping the same exact product. They're not, so obviously they have different goals. Different companies have different markets, different customers, and different cultures. If the OP had his way, there'd be one company for each product. That's not capitalism. Have the state be that one source, and you're in socialism, teetering on the edge of communism.

  6. Open Source means never saying goodbye by ericspinder · · Score: 5, Insightful
    TCO; isn't that a microsoft generated excuse designed for inclusion in power point presentations.

    One of the nice things about open source is that if the project forks, you can "fork" it right back, you are not at the mercy of your software suppliers. If you need it enough you can pay for it's development. This is also true if the project is otherwise abandoned, with paid-for software you would need to be the highest bidder at the auction (or at the mercy of some gready and broke VC).

    --
    The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
    1. Re:Open Source means never saying goodbye by ccoder · · Score: 4, Interesting
      If you need it enough you can pay for it's development.

      I agree. My company uses that approach with alot of things such as our customized mail servers, DNS scripts, etc. We take Bind, and add features (sure most are in shell scripts, but still..). We take Courier, and fix problems with certain domain names (mostly irrelevant to the world).

      That's what I like about my job, being a evolutionist for hire, so to speak :).

      --
      "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" -- George Orwell
  7. forking IS useful by ccoder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I concur with the author's last sentence about forking sometimes being a blessing. Missing features, design work, and other features sometimes get left out of OpenSource projects because some developers just plain don't want to do the work. Another project may work out important issues (even if for only a few people!) and increase usability.

    Of course, I can see how more projects means less people to "help", but lets face it: the people that use 'forked' projects most likely (ok possibly..) picked that specific one for a reason! For me, the particular flavor of P2P software I use lies SOLELY in its features, not because I think the name is catchy, or it has a neat blue icon. And when I go for support/documentation - its usually there!

    --
    "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" -- George Orwell
  8. Forking creates evolution by MarvinMouse · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Saying forking is a bad thing for open source is equivalent to saying random mutations are a bad thing for evolution. Forking causes essentially evolution in an otherwise non evolutionary area of development.

    Sure, lots of work is wasted by forks that no one but a select few use, but the real thing is that forks that no one uses will die off, forks that people use become better, but only when these projects fork and these radical concepts get implemented can the software evolve.

    You see, by forking from where you left off before, the end users have the option to use the original fork, or use the new "mutation" of the software. Thus, allowing for a form of evolution. Whatever is best for the end user will get used, and whatever is useless will die. Sure sometimes good things die by "accident", but that as well is true of the natural world. Unlike corporate development "vats", where the code has to be one fork only, and the company decides which "fork" and which "changes" are best. Open source allows the end user to decide which things are most important, and thus is far far far more useful for consumers, and individuals than corporate devlopment is.

    --
    ~ kjrose
    1. Re:Forking creates evolution by pubjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Saying forking is a bad thing for open source is equivalent to saying random mutations are a bad thing for evolution..

      I would prefer this to be worded:

      Saying forking is a bad thing for open source is equivalent to saying speciation is a bad thing for evolution.

      Speciation occurs when two different groups of organisms evolve in response to different environmental pressures to the point that they can no longer interbreed. If speciation couldn't occur, life on earth would probably still be at the "grey blob" stage - a generic organism that can cope in a wide range of environments but is not really effective in any of them. Speciation - like forking - creates diversity and specialisation, which are good things.

    2. Re:Forking creates evolution by harrkev · · Score: 3, Funny

      Forking MUST be bad. I am a hardware guy, but I hear the software guys talking about the "forking" software all the time, and from their tone of voice, it does not sound kind. They are always talking about the forking compiler, the forking debugger, etc.

      At least I think they are saying "forking."

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    3. Re:Forking creates evolution by pubjames · · Score: 2

      But in the land of computers... Is speciation possible?

      If two projects diverge to the extent that it would be such a pain in the ass to try and merge them that nobody wants to do it, that is effectively "speciation" in my book - specialization to the extent that "breeding" (intermingling of code/DNA) can no longer occur.

      Still, I doubt there's a point of no return where the difference between two branches are too vast to bridge, the changes impossible to port.

      Impossible is one thing, pain in the ass is another.

  9. Forking commercial software by holygoat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My PhD supervisor once worked at Schroders Bank. They didn't want to pay 20% of installed cost per year for an information system, so they decided to maintain it themselves.

    Bad idea.

    Cut to a few years later. Their own maintenance has rocketed the cost well beyond 60% of installed cost per year.
    Even worse, the forking has meant that there is no upgrade path to the latest commercial version, causing the system to be an absolute millstone - and no way out.

    It's a problem in the enterprise market, where custom software gets built, as well as in Open Source software.

    1. Re:Forking commercial software by Hell+O'World · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You make an interesting point. For the most part I agree with the pro-open-source posters, that forking is like evolution, and it leads to better and better software. The problem, as you point out, is the burden on the individual companies who bear the cost. The Borg just keeps growing and getting stronger, while the individual suffers.

      But what you have to realize is that no matter what choice you make, whether you are going to use someone's software package or forge ahead on your own, the future costs can't be known in advance. You always have to make such decisions with incomplete information. And the costs of switching is always going to be high.

      Perhaps trying to save money on maintenace is not a strong enough reason to support your own software inhouse. But surely that bank got some competitive advantage, by getting exactly the software they needed? I work in the Health field, and my company was able to be flexible when Medicare buffeted us with huge changes, just because we had made the choice to take control of our own software. We grew while our competitor shrank.

    2. Re:Forking commercial software by k12linux · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's a problem in the enterprise market, where custom software gets built, as well as in Open Source software.

      The problem in enterprise is actually bigger. Open source can actually help avoid the problem of "no upgrade path to the latest commercial version" which is VERY common when modifications are made to proprietary vertical market apps.

      With open source the changes can, and usually should, be given back to the main developers to be included in the main source tree. This usually allows the customizations to survive version changes. If you are overly protective of your own modifications and don't want to share... then be prepared to accept the consequence of forklift upgrades.

      This is not limited to in-house development. Many vendors will modify thier own software for a customer to the point where a simple upgrade is impossible. Part of the problem is poor fork management and lackluster customization skills. But that doesn't make the next upgrade any cheaper.

      Another point that should be made is that forking is less of a problem in OSS because the pool of developers is not fixed and small like it is with proprietary software. Forks generally increase the number of developers overall. And forks tend to either be merged back in, die off, or replace the original completely depending on the quality and popularity of the changes introduced.

      Also, forking a proprietary software package can be much more risky than forking proprietary. Lets say you customize accounting software that sells for $1000/seat and resell the custom version (assuming the license permits it) for $2000/seat, making $1000 gross profit per sale. What happens if the next version doesn't permit resale? What if a "source" license jumps to $10,000/seat? What if the parent software company goes out of business and the full source goes into limbo?

      Of course, with proprietary, you always have the option of not forking at all... but you do with OSS too, so big deal. More to the point, in the vast majority of cases you don't even have an option of forking proprietary if it doesn't meet your needs. Instead you have to force your business to fit the software instead of the other way around.

    3. Re:Forking commercial software by wiresquire · · Score: 3, Funny

      In that case, it's not called forking, it's called job security.

      --

      So does Anonymous Coward have good karma?

    4. Re:Forking commercial software by ortholattice · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Several years ago I worked on a 1-million+ line ERP app which was maybe 20% customer-modded - i.e. very heavily.

      All mods, i.e. differences from the original, were carefully documented (in the form of extensive comments in the code, as well as keeping the original code in a canonical commented-out format inside the source - in a fashion that the original code could in principal be reproduced algorithmically with a program if desired; in fact this was tested for as part of the QA process).

      With the help of diff3-like in-house tools, we kept the modified code in sync with vendor updates in a relatively straightforward fashion. Code clashes were automatically identified and carefully analyzed - it was curious how the vendor often fixed the same bug we did, usually in a slightly different way. Of course after a vendor update there was extensive testing, but there were staff people dedicated to this.

      My point is that with careful discipline it is possible to keep code in sync. It's not necessarily cheap, but good software tools to help with the process can make it surprisingly efficient.

  10. Forking is a problem by phoenix_orb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Look at Gnome and KDE. Both great windowing managers. Both took great amounts of time and effort to make.

    Yet for joe-six-pack-end-user (which everyone here on slashdot eventually wants as linux users, right?) , there isn't "multiple window managers", there is the start menu, and he doesn't really care whether it is a "K" or a "foot" down in the lower left hand corner.

    The article basically is correct in stating that passionate dissagreements fork projects. The doubling up of energies on very similar projects (like Gnome and KDE) work against open source.

    Why?

    Because all of the man hours spent building up Gnome were spent on KDE (or K-Office, Konquerer, etc), the code would be much tighter, with greater functionality.

    What isn't stated in the article is that there aren't that many human interface experts working in open source. Most interfaces are done either by programmers themselves, or graphic designers who have no idea how most users navigate through systems. What good open source projects need is human interface experts who are willing to lend their knowledge to make a easier navagatable program.

    --
    Blah Blah Blah.
    1. Re:Forking is a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1) Would everyone have to learn C++?
      2) Would QT still be GPL?
      3) Would KDE hackers
      a) work as hard without the competition?
      b) be as open without a rival?

      Much as I love KDE (and use it) I don't think it would be anywhere near as good (or free) without the constant threat of Gnome in the rear view mirror.

    2. Re:Forking is a problem by Joseph+Vigneau · · Score: 4, Insightful


      Because all of the man hours spent building up Gnome were spent on KDE (or K-Office, Konquerer, etc), the code would be much tighter, with greater functionality.


      Of course, this assumes those hours that were spent on GNOME would have been spent on KDE. This is simply not the case.

    3. Re:Forking is a problem by jackb_guppy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Now take look at Xwindows. There is no them and us so X is static - dead?

      Now look at Smoothwall GPL vs IPCop, one was fork from the other. Smoothwall yesterday annouced GPL 2 version. It includes many features that have been in IPCop for up to 2 years. Smoothwall went away from the GPL users years ago, now with IPCop showing that users want and need growth, they have moved the project agian. - Alive.

      It is the them and us that gives to growth. A single monolihtic project is dead, even if it does not know it.

    4. Re:Forking is a problem by vidarh · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You are making the flawed assumption that the amount of resources available to a "united" project would be the total of the resources available to each project. That's simply not true. Many projects are started as a response to perceived flaws in another project, and leads to resources being made available that wouldn't otherwise be there. Many of the Gnome developers would never have bothered working on a desktop project if it wasn't for the QT debacle, for instance.

      Many projects are also started because another, similar projects demonstrates that something is doable, or give people a chance to gain experience that they can build on in a fork that may have different goals.

      Yes, there is a lot of duplication, but this also means that the risks are lower - if a development strategy turns out to be a dead end, people will just move to another OSS project that didn't screw up, or fork, and you will still be able to leverage any good code in the failed project, and if you really need support or enhancements for the failed project because you can't migrate immediately, "anyone" can pick it up and support it for you (at a cost, but this opportunity wouldn't be there for a proprietary end-of-lifed product or a proprietary product from a bankrupt company)

      Contrast that with proprietary software, where you are entirely at the mercy of a company that may go out of business leaving you without support, which may end-of-life it's products at any time, which may refuse to fix problems you have, and where all the resources that went into the product have been wasted if the product disappears off the market.

      Forks means that you get an alternate product that starts of a possibly mature, well tested base, instead of the wastage of the proprietary world where most competing products have to be written from scratch. Look at the variety of vastly different Mozilla/Gecko based browsers for an example - writing a browser from scratch means spending huge amount of resources getting the basic rendering right. If this guy is against wasting resources by forking, does he also think that free market competition is a waste?

      Also forks in the open source world also often gets reintegrated. Look at EGCS vs. GCC for instance: GCC stagnated, got forked, got competition, and the end result was that GCC was revitalized and the projects merged again. This is again something that would be unlikely to happen with proprietary software, leading to more wasted resources.

  11. Forking no more a risk than buyouts by CitizenDan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How is the risk of project forking greater than the risk of product obsolesence through buyout? Ask all those folks who've had a software vendor bought out, only to be forced into a 'new' of 'better' product.

    -chris

  12. forking is good, but rarely happens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the professor doesn't understand how Open Source really works. I've rarely seen forks in Open Source projects and more often than not, a new idea is tested out in a branch at first. Once the idea has gone through sufficient testing and validation from real-world use, it gets adopted by the main tree. Without the ability to fork, branch and vary, the speed at which new ideas are tested and weeded out is significantly slower. The primary difference in my mind between Open and closed development is open source allows unpopular ideas to prove itself. Whereas in a corporate environment, unpopular ideas get killed very early in the dev cycle. Perhaps the professor needs to learn how real software development happens in real life.

  13. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  14. Forking? What forking? by DrHyde · · Score: 2, Informative
    I used to be scared that the open source software I used would fork, but it hasn't happened to Linux, nor to perl, nor to apache, nor to exim, nor to any of the other tools I use day in and day out. The only forks I've seen in major projects have been when a new version has been released but the old version has continued to have occasional maintenance patches released. And that, if anything, is *better* than what you get with commercial software.

    I suppose OpenBSD could be considered a fork, but the effect on its parent has been practically nill - if anything it has benefited by back-porting work done by the paranoids at OpenBSD which simply wasn't happening before the fork.

  15. If OSS is to be successful by tacokill · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If OSS is going to be successful over the long run, remember that the market responds to what IT wants -- not what the OSS community wants.

    The only reason I say this is because most of the replies seem to go something like this, "yes, but forking is good for software". Well, it may be good for the people producing the software but it really sucks for customers.

  16. The dangers of forking by Dr.+Photo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Forking can be detrimental to a project. Why, just because some jokers forked the tree, chimpanzees have failed to take over the world.

    What's more, so much redundant effort is going to the forked project. P. Troglodytes and H. Sapiens share over 97% common code base, and yet the splitters couldn't be bothered to add a few new features to the chimp. Nooooo, they just had to start their own little project instead of working with the existing code base. If this trend keeps up, open source is doomed.

  17. forgot the counterpoint to forking... by Noryungi · · Score: 2

    Which is that both sides of a "fork" actually adopt the best practices and best code/functionalities of each other.

    Imagine there are two projects: "A" and its fork "B". If "B" programmers are smart, they'll keep on tracking the changes brought to "A" and incorporate the best features and patches from the original project.

    In the same way, "A" programmers will keep an eye on "B" and take the code they need to improve "A".

    And there are many examples of this in the open-source world: NetBSD and OpenBSD, Emacs and XEmacs, etc...

    Forking does not necessarily means a loss of quality or incompatible programs. In the worst possible case, if one side of the fork is clearly better, it will eventually replace the other.

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
  18. Re:I agree completely. by GigsVT · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How is unix/linux behind Windows? The way I see it, it's way ahead of Windows in nearly all areas.

    --
    I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  19. Evidence? by Bilbo · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I don't see a link to the actual article, but I wonder if the author has any real evidence of this forking, or is he simply working from arm-chair philosophies? Sure, it's possible in theory, but where are the examples? In the case of a fork, does one side quickly die off, and the other branch simply re-absorb the developers? Is forking no more than evolution at work, with the strongest (i.e., the strategy most supported by users) ultimately surviving in the end? Is the proprietary model an example of one person's vision of how a project should work being forced on users? (examples: horrendous implementations like "Bob" and "Clippy"?) Is the proprietary approach an example of the useless features and software bloat caused by isolated software developers, dwelling in their ivory towers, huddled around clueless "focus groups"?

    Sure, it's all well and good for a bunch of "researchers" to sit around and pontificate on the "Dangers" of one development approach or another, but until I see some hard numbers and indications of actual long term effects, I'm not impressed.

    --
    Your Servant, B. Baggins
  20. how about some factual proof? by linuxislandsucks · · Score: 4, Insightful

    how aobut some factual proof to back up this bad biased peice of crap!?

    Lets see as a startup I have saved $250,000 in software infrastructure costs using

    BLender3D
    Gimp
    CinePaint
    Eclipse

    Now where in fucking hell does my using Opensource increases costs such as hidden costs? show me or shut f*cking up already..

    Its because I use opensource that I can compete with those outside the us who are using closed source software infrastructures, well duh!

    --
    Don't Tread on OpenSource
  21. Re:hm... sounds like science world by JohnFluxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a dodgy analogy.. but what the hell:

    Like the a**hole Galileo who wanted to go his way and say that the earth went round the sun, instead of helping fix the bugs in the current theory...

    Btw, have a look at: this

  22. Two simple rules by FearUncertaintyDoubt · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Closed-source: it's about money
    Open-source: it's about ego

    Companies are often concerned about the long-term market viability of software they purchase. If the company won't be around in a few years, or the software may be abandoned, it is seen as a risk.

    In the case of proprietary software, the question boils down to money: will this software be profitable enough that the publisher will continue to develop and support it?

    In the case of open-source, the assessment is similar, but the motive is different: do the developers of this software seem committed to its long-term health? It may appear harder to answer that one, because you don't have numbers that management can put in an excel spreadsheet to prove it. Not that those numbers, when applied to predicting the future proprietary software, would be much better, but they give the illusion of hard facts.

    Either way (open or closed-source), the risk is the same: will this software suddenly be abandoned, or changed in a way that makes it unsuitable? It's just a question of what the chances are of that happening, and the scenario that would cause it.

  23. Software dictated by market forces. by Rahga · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you are worried the most about forking, then you probably read much more open-source heavy press (Slashdot) that key the communities in to every newsworthy development in the hopes of expanding user and developer bases. On the other hand. To quote:

    "With proprietary software, forking generally does not take place since development is centralized within a firm and disciplined by market forces."

    The main problem with that statement is the use of both "disciplined" and "market forces". If a proprietary tool is extremely useful to you and few others, you can almost count on it getting discontinued after a year or two of stalled sales. If a tool can work wonders for many people, but is insanely hard to market, it will get split into a family of product each geared to a specific market. Those forks make open source forks look like small splinters or development experiments.

  24. Misguided, or a MS shill? by cabalamat2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is Sauer misguided, or is he in the pay of Microsoft?

    Forking is rarely a problem for open source projects; when it does happen, it generally reflects unresolvable differences about where the project is going; which is fine, since two groups may legitimately want to do different things with it. Indeed, forking is good, because the threat to fork keeps open source honest.

    If Sauer is concerned about the TCO, that's a valid concern. But a much more valid concern, which Sauer seems to ignore (I've not read his article yet) is the Total Cost of Non-Ownership: when you use Microsoft software, you never own it, and the future of the software is controlled by Microsoft, not you. Hence upgrade treadmills, deliberastely incompatible file formats, and the like. It's because one doesn't have the right to fork MS software that MS can get away with doing this. If Sauer ignores the TCNO, he is either stupid, or a Microsoft shill.

    1. Re:Misguided, or a MS shill? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If Sauer ignores the TCNO, he is either stupid, or a Microsoft shill.

      Neither.

      His paper probably would have been ignored, except for the fact that Slashdot posted it.

      Every day in every field where it's hard to conclusively show that someone's theories are wrong immediately (public policy, economics, etc), there are a lot of papers produced arguing new points that are a bit dubious. If someone can get attention from putting out a new idea, they can move up the academic/corporate ladder.

      You shouldn't be pissed off at this professor. Instead, you should be happy that open source is such a facinating new area of economics that professors are now publishing lots of papers on it to try to explain it an analyze it. Will there be ones that explore what people consider to be the negative sides of open source? Sure.

  25. Doctor Sauer Doesn't Have the Open-Source Mindset. by bfg9000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... he sounds as though a fork would somehow cripple him, leave him powerless. With access to the sourcecode, and a couple hundred bucks or a geeky nephew who likes him, the software is his to modify / improve to his hearts content. He sounds as though he's still reliant on the companies to fix things for him, which he's NOT. True, if there's a fork, the less popular one is in danger of dying (Darwin strikes again), but if there are people willing to prop up a dying fork, it can stay alive for a long time. Just look at all the people propping up that dying and pathetic "Windows" thing. That POS should have died long ago, but a bunch of uninformed people are fighting evolution viciously to keep it alive.

    Anyway, a fork is better than proprietary software's habit of just disappearing and not giving people the option of keeping it alive as a community effort. If BeOS was open-sourced, it would be twice as big today as it ever was, due to massive community interest. Instead, we have people trying to rewrite it from scratch with a more open license. Bummer. THey're 5 or 10 years behind because of BeOS' licensing structure.

    --

    I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."

  26. Forking is Software Adaptation by mr_lithic · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I would assume that forking is the result of software filling specialty niches. No software project can produce an application that can or will do everything and eventually it will fork to allow it to adapt to the needs of the users. This is similar to the evolutionary mechanism of punctuated equilibrium.

    VNC is an excellent example of this. The ancestral WinVNC has forked into a variety of specialty projects which each do their own area best. UltraVNC is a very good full feature app, while TightVNC handles thin clients superbly.

    This does not endanger the VNC project, rather it strengthens it by providing a larger group of usres and contributors that may not have been interested in the software until the variation had appeared.

    As long as the unwritten rules of forking are adhered to (as stated by Eric Raymond) and it occurs to satisfy project needs and not individual's egos then I would see it as a positive occurrence.

  27. BS by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...has written a article saying that the hidden costs of OS add up to a higher TCO

    OK, 1st I have never seen a valid way of _measuring_ TCO and this guy can measure "hidden costs" in TCO. So are these "hidden" costs things like security breaches, viri, worms, buggy software, new bugs introduced by a patch/upgrade, etc? And these things can be preemptively quantified in terms of $$ ?? !! Amazing.

    Now with the forking problem. Well, its a part of life. Churches do it, companies do it, religions do it, nations do it. I have never been negatively affected by a forked opensource project. The biggest fork of a project I can think of was when gcc was forked into egcs, which was eventually unforked back into gcc. I'd take the gcc we have today over the one years ago anytime. Even with the gcc/egcs fork there was no problems any different from an upgrade from any complex computer program.

    And in closed source, this keeps "forks" from happening? Closed source companies go out of business, their programers go to other companies, etc. Although code rarely gets transfered when these things happen, other closed source projects spring up to compete or fill some void for people. That is similar to a fork except its more like a rewrite.

    Back to work. I've got to unhide some hidden costs to lower the TCO for my PHB ASAP.

  28. Misconceptions... by mindstrm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Everyone remember... if you aren't used to the open source world.. there are some things you take for granted that need to be re-assessed when you go to open source.

    Things like : forking.. when you see a project, and it forks.. you think of a company that just split in two, having developers leave, internal strife etc.... it will probably hurt the customer. Not necessarily so with open source.. the fork could be simply becaues a couple recent developers wanted to take things in a new direction. You don't lose, everyone wins.

    Version numbers: Commercial ventures use versioning as a marketing tool.. but with many OSS projects, it's just a developer tool. Just because something is 0.xx or 1.xxBETA doesn't mean you can assume anything at all about it's stability or features, or worthiness. Sometimes it's 0.xxBETA simply because the developer always had one feature he wanted to add, and never got around to.. it could be rock-solid. The old adage about "never use a 1.0 release in production" comes about because commercial developers usually call their first release 1.0.. and the first commercial release is usually buggy as hell, as it came out early due to marketing pressure... and it's the first time it's hit a wide audience.

    Support: One of those things that means differnet things to different people. Remember, many non-oss people just want individual applications, and somewhere to go for concise info about those applications.. they don't really picture everything as a big pile of tinkertoys to glue together like with unix/oss. In 10 years of OSS, I've never had problems finding answers to my questions.

    GPL fud: Seriously, the zealotry about hte GPL has got to stop... everyone should read it and question their assumptions about it. A great many people still think that anything you write for Linux has to be GPL, and that you can''t practically write closed software for linux. They think the compiler requires you to publish your source, etc. I know it's obiviously not that way, but to many , it's not.

    Dictators: People see one guy in charge of a project, Linus being a common example. They say "who's to say linus is going to do what business needs?". Well, true. Nobody can guarantee that. But for a decade he's done a good job.. and what they need to realize is that the projects are driven by those who contribute to them. The reason it's popular, and that you hear about it, is because it's good. These leaders aren't dictators... people follow them because they are doing a good job. If Linus went insane and started doing weird stuff, you can bet there would be a new leader or group emerge.

  29. Evolution not a perfect model by RevMike · · Score: 2, Insightful

    On a more serous note...

    You see, by forking from where you left off before, the end users have the option to use the original fork, or use the new "mutation" of the software. Thus, allowing for a form of evolution. Whatever is best for the end user will get used, and whatever is useless will die.

    While you are correct that forking leads to evolution, it is not a perfect model. In OSS, frequently only one tyne of the fork survives very long. But when the features do start to diverge, each of the two projects tend to imitate the more successful features of the other. Eventually, the forks will often merge, which is something that doesn't generally happen in evolution.

  30. All purpose expert ? by BillsPetMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dr. Robert M. Sauer of the Department of Economics at Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and president of the Jerusalem Institute for Market Studies

    Why is the media always taken in with the idea of the "all-purpose expert"? This guy has a PhD in economics, not software design or management. There is nothing to suggest he knows what he's talking about when it comes to software. ... we interrupt this broadcast ... to get a comment on the NASA programme from Dr. Hibbert of the Chicago Institute of Modern Art ...

    --
    "It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
  31. Proprietary software just gets discontinued by BigTom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you use proprietary software the danger is that it gets discontinued.

    Then you are stuck with an unsupported legacy system that you can't support at all

    Competition in the proprietary market means that you have to bet on a product and if the provider goes under you (at best) get left with a load of crappy, undocumented escrowed code that often won't even build.

    Alternatively you buy a product and the provider "discontinues support" so that you get hung up for a big upgrade (usually with a shed load of license costs to go with it).

    For equivalently functional products (for my project's needs) I'll take OSS as a risk mitigation measure every time.

  32. Choices choices! by Walkiry · · Score: 3, Funny

    OSS forks.
    Windows borks.
    Apple is for dorks.

    Now choose!
    (Wonder if I'll be modded down by mac users with no sense of humor...)

    --
    ---- Take the Space Quiz!
  33. What do economists know about software? by olethrosdc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Or what have they ever had known about any kind of technology? I know around half a dozen people that are economists, one of them a uni professor, and none of them exhibit any understanding of technology. Here is my question to the prof:

    If it costs X to produce the main branch of the code, how much does it cost to fork it N times? The upper limit would be NX, but actually it should be much less. Furthermore, what is the utility of the main branch? It is true that the utility of the main branch, or any fork, might be the same for just *one* customer, but what when there are many customers which want different things?

    Furthermore, what about closed source software? With closed-source, each client will have a completely customised version of the software. If one of the forks for one client gets a fix/upgrade, the fork for another client will not necessarily get it. Plus, it is much harder for to migrate. (If something is open-source, it would be easy to write a migration application).

    --

    I miss my rubber keyboard.(Homepage)

  34. Monopolists by LuYu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Claiming that forking is bad for Free Software is the same thing as saying that competition is bad for capitalism.

    Then again, I suppose monopolists like MicroSuck think that competition is a bad thing to have in the market place. It reduces their control over the consumer.

    --
    All data is speech. All speech is Free.
  35. That's not forking. by 3Suns · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can tell that you're trying to make a valid point, even if it's one that's been tried many times before. It's a misguided point, of course... would software be so much better if the industry didn't have so much duplicated effort and everyone went to work at Microsoft? I hardly think so. Besides, Gnome developers usually become that way because they can't stand the thought of coding for KDE, and vice versa.

    However, Gnome and KDE are most certainly not an example of forking. They grew up entirely on their own, and there was never a common parent. Forking means taking one project and making new projects from it, starting at a branch point. Examples: Emacs and XEmacs, XFree86 and Xouvert, Sodipodi and Inkscape, RedHat and Mandrake, Debian and UserLinux (in the future), Net/Open/Free BSD's.

    Sometimes forking can hurt a project, but often times it encourages innovative work in a different direction. Usually, however, it signifies a problem in the management of the project; if a developer is frustrated by the project leadership, they might fork the project rather than struggle to get their viewpoint heard on the main project. One of the testaments to the managerial skills of Linus Torvalds and his lieutenants is the fact that the Linux kernel has not undergone major forking. Kernel developers in general feel that they can get their work done adequately on the main Linux branch.

    --

    -3Suns

    ~~~~
    The Revolution will be Slashdotted
  36. MS made counter-argument in Halloween docs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Interestingly, in the famous Halloween documents a superb counterargument is made to this. That is, the GPL licensing model has a natural tendency to discourage code forking, while the BSD licencing model has a tendency to encourage forking.

    Note that the Halloweed docs were a "secret" set of memos prepared by a top MS employee for Microsoft top management when they were developing their strategy against Linux. So it is certainly not biased in favor of open source!

    Therefore, I think that the assertion that code forking is a "danger" which cannot be mitigated is wrongheaded. Rather, forking can be a problem, but can be managed by adjustment of the licensing agreement for the software.

  37. Bad Economics = Bad Assertion by salesgeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm really, really sick of seeing people act as if Open Source (TM) is some kind of software development corporation. It is not, it is a process. The assertion that a private interest developing software is somehow guided by the market whereas OS development is flawed:

    * Open Source is guided by it's market of user-developers. This is the opposite of the author's assertion: reality is that closed source software is insulated from market demands - how many years has it been since MS Word's index feature was broke? How many years will it be till they fix it?

    * Forking is where generally needs diverge and the user-developer creates a product more close to their need. In conventional private development, this rarely happens unless a market is large enough of a cusomter's need is enough to fund development. That open source products fork to smaller markets is a strength of the model - people can spend less to get exactly what they want.

    * What the author is trying to express is that open source products more quickly diversify - in fact it's possible in the open source world for a product to spin in to thousands of uniqe forks where each fork may have as few as one user!

    What the author is missing is that Open Source allows for the market to take control of a product - whereas we are used to the model where the product is insulated from the market by the company that makes it.

    --
    -- $G
  38. Isn't this something IT has always dealt with? by supermojoman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems like this is a risk - a calculated risk - that everyone incharge of some IT decision takes and has taken for years now. We see it happen with certain standards all the time. A few solutions rise to meet a certain problem. Some succeed, some don't. That's why careful evaluation of adopting anything is necessary. You don't want to go one way while everyone else is going another.

    NIST does this sort of evaluation on standards all the time with its Application Portability Profile.

    Basically, I don't see how this "forking" is really something exclusive to open source. Society, as a whole, forks all the time. Which forks will be successful isn't without some level of predictability, however.

  39. Re:RTFA : Forking is the danger not open source by Theatetus · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Forking is more of a danger in open source because of its mostly distributed approach in development. Corporate software is less in danger of this because all decisions are taken from a central perspective and hence more focused.

    Pay your people writing open source code and they won't fork it (or rather, if they do, you can fire them). If you want people to work for you for free, you have to accept the fact that they might want to do their own thing with the code.

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
  40. This article is a troll. Everyone wants to fork! by aphor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What other possible reason is there for wanting open source and a free software license but for the right to fork? If you edit one single file and recompile, that binary and the file you edited are a fork in the development. This is what programmers do when they share. They fork off of each others' work, and then *gasp* they merge their respective forks!

    There can be no merge without a respective fork. Forking is essential. It is the meaning of life. Fork fork fork. Merge merge merge. Fork; merge: because you can. When people ask "What is Open Source?" you should say "Promiscuous forking and merging of everyone's ideas and code."

    Now, the danger to a business in Open Source: they might think it is a free lunch. TANSTAAFL. Everything you have also has you, and if you think you don't have to pay there will be surprise costs. It's either blood and sweat or enough money to get someone else to throw in sufficient blood and sweat. When you adopt free software, you either fork and freeze, or you commit to keeping up with development. This is the same as commercial software patch management. The prior developers are writing code for purposes outside the scope of your business mission. You can't "squeeze" the vendor in free software, but you can hire programmers to make your own fork. There you either commit to merging your changes back into the project, or you commit to maintaining your own fork. As long as you understand those costs and you compare them to migration from one piece of software to another, you just have more choices than closed proprietary software.

    More choices is a problem for the business world. The suits are struggling to maintain business competence in an increasingly technological. More choices requiring more technical engineering perspective mean more challenges to the established order of wink-and-handshake discretion in business decisions. More power is unwelcome responsibility without the skills to master the empowered situations and their choices. Part of the problem is the suits' idea that mistakes are unacceptable. The real issue is why the suits are so afraid that they are choosing between "the devil you know and the devil you don't know."

    --
    --- Nothing clever here: move along now...
  41. Ob Python quote by BenjyD · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The answer to project splits is simple - make all OS developers watch the Life of Brian. It's impossible to take intra-group political fights seriously after that.

    "Judean People's Front? F*** off, we're the People's Front of Judea."
    "Whatever happened to the Judean People's Front, anyway?"
    "He's over there"
    "Splitter!"

  42. Health of forking, kinds of forking by siskbc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Forking is extremely healthy -- look, for example, at the Apache project.

    Certainly, it worked well for Apache, but I don't know if that's the kind of fork he's talking about - that's more like a "development version" kind of fork. And, as you say, there's a good kind of flow between the two projects, where one is clearly the "Main Version" so there's no diluting of third-party support, etc.

    Not so fun would be the "antagonistic" kind of fork. Here, there can be no flow between the two projects, practically. Additionally, the leaders of the two projects may rather kill the project entirely than adopt features from each other. It also may not be clear which is the "Main Version," diluting third-party support, and if it's a roughly equal split, the future direction of either fork may not resemble the previous project that much. It also may dilute the talent pool, since the manpower is split.

    All in all, I think it depends what kind of fork takes place, and under what terms. However, I like all of you would have liked to have seen this nebulous "article" alluded to. Hey Taco, how about not posting stories where some asshat claims to have an unposted, mystery "article."

    --

    -Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

  43. Re:RTFA : Forking is the danger not open source by shamel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Very true. Thats why I said "Corporate software" as opposed to "closed source". There are some open source projects that are being financed by corporations. A more appropriate title for the article would be ["Forking" Greatest Danger of Adopting Distributed Development?] Distributed development also has some advantages that compensate for this drawback that outweights the risks in my opinion. But I mostly agree with writer on this item.

    --
    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
  44. What about the "hidden costs" of closed systems? by sribe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With proprietary software, forking generally does not take place since development is centralized within a firm and disciplined by market forces.

    Uhm, yeah, but what he fails to mention is that "disciplined by market forces" often means "going out of business and leaving customers with no recourse except an extremely painful and expensive migration". The closed-source proponents that I've seen never factor the cost of being stranded like that into the TCO, yet we know that outside of operating systems (because MS is pretty healthy and is very likely to be around another 10 years) this happens all the time.

  45. Forking is a real problem! by happystink · · Score: 4, Funny

    Forking is part of everything I hate about open source. I hate the forking bugs, I hate the forking users, I hate the forking beards, I hate the whole forking thing!

    --

    sig:
    See the "..for smart people" banners Wired runs here? Look elsewhere guys.

  46. TOC - (Subjective Cost of Ownership) by ericspinder · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Guess you never took any management ? - from an AC troll
    As a matter of fact I did take management classes in College, plus Accounting and Marketing.
    Sorry.. truth hurts. - same AC troll
    I don't really think the Microsoft invented that term, but they do have a tendancy to use it whenever they describe their advantages. So to associate MS with that term is appropiate. In your overly simplistic and trollish way you are correct, TOC (Total Cost of Ownership) is a valid term. What I mostly object to is the incomplete usage and analysis that usually goes along with it. For example, they never include the cost to protect against viruses, or the cost of repair infections(which is also a "fact of life"). Another is the cost of having to change your software when a company decides that they no longer want to sell that product (which has happened to me). Granted not ever company goes out of business, so the cost of changing software would need to be multiplied by the historical chance of the company pulling software. There are many other "costs" which never seem to make it into calulations for the TCO. In fact, I have never seen a proper line-by-line balance sheet description of a TCO analysis, if you have I would love to see it. Even if you can find something that might pass to you as a complete example of TCO, you must understand that most people's TCO anaylsis includes a lot of hand-waving and "trust me it's cheaper", without any real data.

    If you have ever had an advanced accounting class, which I doubt, you will know that there are many ways to look a particular set of numbers, to "spin" them to be appropiate for your point (if you will). That is why I perfer to call it SCO (Subjective Cost of Ownership), but since SCO is already a well known curse (at least in the Slashdot world), lets just call it really is "FUD".

    --
    The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
  47. What danger? by Angst+Badger · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can count the number of significant projects that have forked on one hand and still have a finger free for Darl McBride. Sure, forking happens all of the damn time with silly stuff like MP3 players and web-based BBS software, but aside from the BSDs, when was the last time you heard of a significant infrastructure project forking?

    Only the gcc/egcs split comes to mind, but the two were folded back into one tree and the result was a better compiler. There's the StarOffice/OpenOffice split, but that's also largely collaborative. Most other forks are dead ends that wither away quietly, no matter how loud and vociferous the original argument was.

    This is just more Microsoft FUD coming from one of the most Microsoft-saturated countries on the planet.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
  48. Umm by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With proprietary software, forking generally does not take place since development is centralized within a firm and disciplined by market forces.

    Sure, forking doesn't take place, because of copyright issues. Instead you have two different companies working on the exact same thing from scratch. Yahoo Messenger, AIM, MSN Messenger, all worked on separately without any collaboration whatsoever, and completely incompatible with one another. Forking is better than the alternative.

  49. They are all the same. by Analogy+Man · · Score: 2, Funny
    Unlike the many Linux flavors, Windows 2000, Windows 95, Windows ME , Windows 98, Windows XP...are all the same...

    ...CRAP

    --
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
  50. Re:hm... sounds like science world by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2, Informative

    The pope demanded that Galileo present the opposing argument (Copernican theory) in his treatise, as it was favored by the vatican. Galileo did this, but used the voice of a character called idiota. The pope took offense at this, and imprisoned Galileo.

    --
    "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  51. The article link is .... by aheath · · Score: 2, Informative

    The article in question is Open question. The government claims open-source software means a 60% saving. It doesn't add up. Dr. Robert M. Sauer has a homepage if you are interested in finding out more about his other work.

  52. DOS/Win/Win98/WinME SystemN/BSD/SunOS/Solaris/... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Forking is like software evolution. One project may split into two, with slightly different plans. Mostlikely one will surpass the other. Kind of survival of the fittest. If neither one grows over the other, then you have something called choice.

    Dead on.

    Proprietary projects fork and change, too. But after that one fork generally gets dropped or spun out and the older system abandoned. Users are stuck with the vendor-chosen "upgrade", or with changing vendors.

    With an open source product they CAN'T pull the rug out from under you. The older version is still there, as are the multiple newer versions. Pick a fork and upgrade in your own time - and if nobody wants to maintain it for you you can always maintain it yourself, until YOU chose to hop versions for some cost/benefit improvement to YOU.

    Forking is a PLUS for open source, not a minus.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way