Slashdot Mirror
Spain, Morocco To Build Undersea Rail Tunnels
DoraLives writes "The BBC reports that Spain and Morocco 'have agreed to build a 39-kilometre rail tunnel beneath the Mediterranean Sea, to link Europe and Africa.' and that 'This plan could be put into action as early as next year...' Fairly daunting technical piece of work should they attempt it, but the prospect of an all-rail trip from Edinburgh to Tangiers is intriguing to say the least."
if this ever pans out, it would be possible to take train from Singapore all the way to johannesburg!
I have to wonder if the boarding security for the trains running in this proposed tunnel would at least meet that of air travel?
A big enough bomb exploding in transit would basically scrap the whole kit-and-caboodle.
I bring this up because of the fact that Morocco likely has their Muslim fanatics as well, no?
I can't help but wonder how badly there is a need to build something like this. England to France makes sense, as you are talking about two rich nations that see a lot of bussiness with each other. This on the other hand just doesn't seem to hold as much promise for profit. Granted, I know little about the area and there might be more to it then I know, but I just can't see it being worth the horrific costs. Is there any reason why such a feat of engineering is needed when an air plane or boat are both practical solutions?
I wonder how well they have looked at this from an economics side. It seems like it would be a horrific waste of money if it is just being done for national prestige. The worry in such projects is that very few people are willing to say 'no' to such things. The companies involved in the building are of course more then happy to let the government foot the bill, and the companies on either side of coast are happy to have it put in at not cost to themselves. Of course, the people who are going to have to pick up the tab are the tax payers of the respective nations. Who is speaking for them in this project? I hope this is not just a government waste program between the two nations, as it could potentially be a very expensive one.
W00T!!!
The Channel Tunnel: UK - continental Europe, built in 1994, 37.5 kilometer submarine
The Seikan Tunnel: Japan, Hokkaido - Honshu, built in 1988, 23.3 kilometer submarine
I lived in Gibraltar for a while.
There are a lot of ferry rides across between Spain & Morocco on a daily basis. They are usually always packed.
Ferries run from Algeciras to Tangiers and Ceuta
Ferries also run several days a week from Gibraltar to Tangiers (not to Ceuta, I dont' think.. Spain hates Gib)
There is definately money to be had, anyway....
The economic value of such a tunnel would outshine any "spat" over territory...
What are they fighting over, anyway, Ceuta?
(Ceuta is a spanish protectorate/territory/colony/whatever in morocco, basically across the straight from Gibraltar.)
Commercia shipping is probably one of the largest reasons. Right now, the only way to get stuff from North Africa to ship it over the water. That's slow.
This would also give shippers a reason to bring more goods through Spain, as opposed to shipping around Spain (once you have the stuff loaded onto a ship.. might as well use that to your advantage.. why bother with spain at all?)
From Gibraltar or Algeciras to the coast of Morocco is about 15 miles, on a clear day you can see the Rif mountains in Morocco... if you are elevated at all, you can see the beaches and houes of Morocco.
A bridge or tunnel is not THAT rediculous, though given the fact that it's open ocean, and all that implies, it's no easy task.
I want a train tunnel along the Great Circle arc from New Brunswick, Canada, to Great Britain, passing through Greenland and maybe Iceland. Then I want a 600MPH train to shoot me from NYC to London, thence through the Chunnel to Paris and points east. I'd love to drive my motorcycle into a cargo car in Brooklyn, and hop back on in the Alps.
--
make install -not war
This is going to be a 39km tunnel and if you have an accident in the middle then you have problems getting emergency services in and other people out. The other people tend not to react all that sensibly either when they see flames and realise thay are 15km from an exit.
Dunno how popular it is in comparison to various other destinations, but when I lived briefly in Germany (11th grade) I know that several classmates liked to go to Morocco on vacation. Specifically, to go there to smoke hash, cheaper than it apparently was in Amsterdam.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I initially thought this was a cool idea, but then I had the sinking suspicion that Renfe must be involved. They almost certainly will be. For those you haven't lived/are living in Spain, Renfe is also known as the World's Worst State-Run Railway. Actually, my travels aren't extensive enough to state that with certainty, but it's gotta be in the top 5. Let's see, in the past year (and just off the top of my head) Renfe has managed to: run a pair of trains into each other because somebody literally fell asleep at the switch; trap like 30 AVE workers in an underground tunnel for three days; build a section of the Barcelona-Madrid AVE track over a dangerous sinkhole, mandating millions in costly repairs; exceed the overall timeframe and budget for the Barcelona-Madrid AVE by years and millions of euros, respectively, etc. etc. etc. (Hi ha algu aqui de Catalunya? Que pasa amb l'AVE ara?) If someone were to invite me to ride to Morocco with them on this underground tunnel, I would politely take the ferry.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Morocco exports a lot of goods to Europe. Some of them completely native like fruits and vegetables, phosphate, (hashich :p), etc. Others are produced by foreign companies outsourcing to Morocco (though not nearly as much as one would hope for) France, Spain, Germany, Italy and the U.K are some of Morocco's main economic partners.
:) I believe it gets around 2-3 million tourists a year (many of them people of Moroccan extraction residing in europe) which, while by no means comparable to Spain's 50 millions or France's 70 millions are still important to its economy and are a vital source of hard currency. That's some more traffic right there.
:)
It goes without saying That Morocco also imports from those countries quite a bit. Some more traffic right there.
Morocco is also a touristic destination. (And I am shamelessly plugging it when I say: Go visit! I swear you'll like it. Really
And last but not least, It is also a hub between Europe and Africa so part of many african countries' exports and imports also go through Morocco.
Anyways, My point is that there is PLENTY of traffic taking place between Spain and Morocco and that a tunnel or a bridge linking the two countries DOES make plenty of economic sense. As the article pointed out, talks about this have been going on for decades now and it is actually surprising this has not happened sooner (taking into account that The distance between Tangiers and Algeciras is a measly 10 miles).
And for those unfamiliar with the territorial "spats" between Morocco and Spain, it goes something like this:
A few hundred years ago, Spain conquered a couple of northern moroccan cities (sebta and imlilia a.k.a ceuta and melilla). They have been spanish ever since but Morocco still officially wants them returned (The truth is no moroccan I've ever known cares about that.) They are tax-free zones and a LOT of cheap contraband stuff (from eletronics to candy) comes from them. My first playstation most probably came from there
The Western Sahara is a different issue. Spain was ocuppying it during the days of european colonization and it was taken back about 3 decades ago at the end of a "million men" peaceful march. Since then, Spain has been trying to make it an independant country so that they could fish within it's territorial waters for cheap. Now THAT is a very touchy subject for your average moroccan. You know..pride, territorial integrity, yadda yadda. The government has been stalling a referendum supposed to take place there and giving incentives to Moroccans to relocate there in hopes of skewing a future vote.
Back to the topic. I'm a bit disappointed that the tunnel is going to be trains only. I was actually hoping for something that allows cars and trucks to travel through. I guess the ferry businesses lobbied against it to avoid certain bankruptcy.
You mean like this.
"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."
To the extent that they have violence, it's down in the Spanish Sahara, a culturally different area south of Morocco that the last few Kings of Morocco want to rule because of the mining resources, while the local Polisario guerillas don't want the kings.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
This was discussed in a book entitled "Engineers Dreams," and it pointed out that the primary reason that this wasn't done, is because it simply wouldn't pay for itself.
I personally like the "Alantropia Plan" discussed in that same book. The plan involves damming up the whole Mediterranean Sea, allowing evaporation to lwoer the sea level, creating many hundreds of thousands of kilowatts of energy a day (this takes into account rainfall, etc).
That would be why the Japanese have some of the worlds longest tunnels and bridges already, then. And San Francisco has a couple of the longer bridges in US. They all have deathwishes.
I suspect the $30m is for the 3 year planning, not the tunnel dig itself.
Thank said, such a tunnel would of great interest. The chunnel takes cars (on trains) and train passengers much faster between the UK and the rest of europe than ferries.
Once the new high-speed london to kent rail link is finished, it will be possible to go from London to Paris in 2 1/2 hours.
One can only imagine how much economic benefit it will bring to drastically shorten the travel time between southern europe and northern africa. Hell, it's interesting to think whether it could compete with trans-Mediterranean shipping that heads down to the suez canal to the middle east...
Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
Full disclosure ahead: I am a Spaniard, I lived for 2 years in Morocco (Casablanca) and I work in the railway business (software engineering, not civil engineering, but you can't have it all, can you?)
/ guadarrama/), which will connect Madrid to the northern cities of Segovia and Valladolid. And last, but not least, the longest metro line in Europe, currently under construction, is the Line 9 in Barcelona, which will also feature fully automated trains (http://www.finanzas.com/id.5214701/noticias/notic ia.htm, in Spanish).
Believe it or not, but this is actually possible. Spain might not be any more the country many of you thought it was. Civil engineering in Spain and the rest of Europe is pretty advanced these days, as far as huge tunnels are concerned. Just look at Madrid's Metro and its spectacular growth here: http://www.metropla.net/eu/mad/metrosur.htm. The Line 12 was put in service in just 3+ years, and spans 40+ kilometres of underground tracks and stations. Look at the 27 kilometre high speed rail double tunnel currently being built beneath the Sierra de Guadarrama, a granitic mountain range 2500 metres high (http://www.geodata.it/english/progetti/gallunghe
However, having said this, I don't believe we will actually see this happen in our lifetimes. First of all, 27e6 euros (30e6 $) aren't enough even for preliminary studies of such a complex undertaking. The current Spanish government is extremely interested in infrastructure and development work if and only if two or more of the following apply: a) political gains are to be obtained, b) civil engineering firms tycoons line up their pockets even more and c) the european union foots a significant percentage of the bills.
And then comes Morocco, a developing country en route to democracy. Morocco has comparatively few transportation infrastructures deployed: around 1000 km of electrified, standard gauge railways. You simply don't build a tunnel to nowhere, unless Spain and the EU are strongly commited to finance development works there (and they currently aren't, and most likely won't be in a foreseeable future, even though it might be a hell of a good idea to even out differences and further good neighbour relationships in the Mediterranean area).
Lastly, governments of Spain and Morocco are at odds over several issues, the least important of which are the ones that got more attention in previous comments: territorial disputes and terrorism. The main troubles between Morocco and Spain (and the rest of EU) are immigration and commerce, and both of them receive a harsh treatment by the Spanish government. No compromises will be agreed upon unless forced by a third party, just because such an attitude improves the outlook of Aznar and his cabinet among the population right wing.
So, unfortunately, I believe this tunnel is just vapor, and will dissipate sooner or later depending on the result of the ongoing UN-sponsored Western Sahara negotiations...
Ivan
An eye for an eye anD%$"%R:=\D\q[NO SIG]
The Chunnel between England and France is 31 miles long, 23 of which are underwater
And the idea was first brought at the time of Napoleon...
Besides, when you consider the degree of nervousness in Spain (and Europe) over immigration concerns, I don't think anything serious will be undertaken before at least a few decades.
Thomas Miconi
However as regards distance, and the cost of fitting out with track, signalling etc, they are not all that different. But railway track is only about 1M (UKP) per mile anyway, that is the cheapest part....
Of course I look forward to this happening, but to make best use of it they really need a high-speed rail link the full length of Africa, which would bring economic prosperity with it. But who could afford to fund it, and would politics allow it to be used anyway? Even a link along the south side of the Mediterranean, through to the Middle East, would be a political impossibility.
The $30m is only initial costs, geological surveys, etc, and that is what they seem to be going to do in 3 years, which is feasible. Multiply that by perhaps 1000 for the actual construction.
One thing in their favour is that the cost of land will be minimal, and probably planning regulations will be equally unobtrusive, unlike in the UK where more than half the cost of a project like this, and 5 to 10 years of lost productivity, is simply wasted in endless debate, planning enquiries, legal costs, etc. If the two governments concerned are able to agree, they should simply just sign a document and get on with it. The quicker it is built, the sooner it contributes to the economy, a fact of which the UK government remains in abysmal ignorance, where railways are concerned. They may teach us a lesson here.....
Moderators, look at a map. I think the parent was trying to show how fscked up amtrak's network is - one has to go through LA to get from flagstaff to phoenix!?!?!
Actually, I have a more ridiculous case: according to Amtrak, if I want to go from Saint Louis to Minneapolis I have a nice eight-hour train ride through Chicago; but since the train travels in a loop and not a line, the return trip from Minneapolis to Saint Louis goes through... SEATTLE and takes seven days, and costs three thousand dollars. No wonder nobody outisde the northeast rail corridor rides trains...
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD