KDE Gains Full Accessibility Support

Great For KDE by monkeyman_67156 · 2003-12-19 03:33 · Score: 2, Redundant

This is great news for KDE, I can see how this will enable it to gain a more diverse market share. By allowing for more users to interact with it, despite their physical limitations truely shows that KDE and GNU/Linux in general is ready for mainstream use. Oh, yeah, and FP!

Congrats! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-19 03:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is a big step onward. Anyone know how this assistive technology compares with gnopernicus ? Or do the separate softwares need to be made due to differences between Gnome & KDE?

And hopefully by justsomebody · 2003-12-19 03:34 · Score: 2, Troll

They will adopt desktop settings at freedesktop.org too and there will be one control panel to maintain both KDE and Gnome. Until then I'll be avoiding KDE.

I just don't want to tweak every single feature

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Re:And hopefully by nutshell42 · 2003-12-19 03:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

I just don't want to tweak every single feature
Then don't do it. Noone forces you to change everything, the defaults of KDE are at least as sensible as the ones of Gnome (although with a different focus)

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Re:And hopefully by nutshell42 · 2003-12-19 04:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

KDE is geared to the user who's already seen a PC once. As everyone using plain KDE managed to install Linux on his box I think that's a reasonable assumption.
Distributions can modify KDE as they want (the *modular* control center comes in handy here =P ) so it isn't overwhelming for newbies.
It's easy to choose defaults and hide functionality for newbies.
That said most newbies I know are more comfortable with KDE than with Gnome because KDE with its default settings is similar to Windows in look and feel.

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Re:And hopefully by nitehorse · 2003-12-19 06:50 · Score: 4, Informative

I know that I'm probably just feeding a troll here, but I just can't resist...

Look, KDE has been very involved with creating the specs at Freedesktop.org. Hell, I'm a KDE developer, and I'm also in the CVS commit list on the freedesktop server. The reason that you haven't seen Freedesktop standard support in KDE yet is because either A) You haven't tried a KDE 3.2 beta or B) You're obviously trolling.

KDE 3.2 will have support for all of the relevant standards that have moved out of the 'still in progress' stage and even some support for a few that haven't yet been finalized. KDE 3.1 was released almost a full year ago, when none of these standards was really done yet, so it isn't exactly a crime that it didn't support standards that didn't exist.

And KDE 3.3 will support even more of the specs that Freedesktop puts out, because we're involved in their creation (things that are currently pre-spec, even, like the shared MIME and Help systems).
Re:And hopefully by nitehorse · 2003-12-19 06:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's a very funny argument, that KDE looks too similar to Windows but doesn't act enough like it.

And really, Keramik looks nothing like any other graphical style I've ever seen. (Personally, I think that's probably good, as I can't stand the Keramik look myself, but to each his own). Using my Asteroid style, things look so Windows-like that it's frightening, but even the KDE2 default was designed to look more like BeOS than anything else, and KDE1 was designed and implemented by people who had more experience with OS/2 than with Windows.

So we've never really been into the whole "emulating Windows" thing except for places where it does make sense. The fact that our architecture is flexible enough to make things extremely Windows-like is a good thing, I think, because it also means that it's very easy to make things very unlike Windows.

This may prove useful to ordinary people as well by sufehmi · 2003-12-19 03:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

For example, Windows' accessibility features has saved me many times when the mouse just doesn't want to work for various reason. It enable me to use the numpad to simulate the mouse, and troubleshoot the problem - instead of reinstalling it.

I welcome this addition to KDE even more for that reason.

Without intention to TROLL.. by frodo+from+middle+ea · 2003-12-19 03:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

What percent of windows users use the accessibility features ?

How does this make KDE any more useful to us , who don't really need accessibility. Making KDE more accessible to physically handicapped people is sure nice and appriciable, but shouldn't it come down the list of things like

consistent UI look and feel.
Better interoperability with non KDE applications
etc etc etc...

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Re:Without intention to TROLL.. by Planesdragon · 2003-12-19 03:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

How does this make KDE any more useful to us , who don't really need accessibility.

I'm sure you can find a use for screen magnification, improved typing commands, and keyboard-mouse-control.

So it is more useful--about as "more useful" as that handicapped ramp you never appreciated until you have to roll a heavy desk up it.

Making KDE more accessible to physically handicapped people is sure nice and appriciable, but shouldn't it come down the list of things like

No. You can use KDE as-is. Others cannot use it without handicapped accessability at all.

'sides which, this is OSS "scratch an itch" software.
Re:Without intention to TROLL.. by mental_telepathy · 2003-12-19 03:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

From what I understand, people with disabilities want to access everything everyone else does. I know, it sounds crazy.
So, if I am a partially deaf or blind kernel developer, why should I have to wait for fucntionaility everyone else already has?
Re:Without intention to TROLL.. by be-fan · 2003-12-19 03:44 · Score: 2, Informative

Accessibility is a huge issue. Without it, KDE cannot be used for many government purposes.

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Re:Without intention to TROLL.. by teamhasnoi · 2003-12-19 03:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

Let's say it happens to you. You get in a car accident and lose an arm. Or find out that you have a degenerative eye disease. Then where will 'Sticky Keys' and 'Magnifier' be on your list?
It's easy to discount stuff that doesn't immediately apply, but this is only a good thing for lots of people.
I agree that UI consistency is something that needs work, but thinking about how *everyone* uses KDE can only help the UI design.
Re:Without intention to TROLL.. by RealProgrammer · 2003-12-19 04:18 · Score: 3, Insightful
So it is more useful--about as "more useful" as that handicapped ramp you never appreciated until you have to roll a heavy desk up it.

There are many other settings where making something accessible also makes it easier to use for the rest of us:
- I always use the handicapped stall in public restrooms. Spacious, well-lit heads are better.
- I really appreciate wheelchair buttons on the doors to public buildings when what I'm carrying won't let me open the door otherwise. Powered doors are better.
- We're doing some remodelling on our house. Part of that will be 36", wheelchair-friendly doors. Big doors are better.
It's really just about being user-friendly, making your edge cases disappear.
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Re:Without intention to TROLL.. by slashd'oh · 2003-12-19 04:41 · Score: 2

You make a great argument. I would expand it by adding that all too often, when people think of "accessibility," they picture a person in a wheelchair, or a person who is completely disabled in some way. Even the post at KDE.news (linked-to in this post) is in the category "accessibility" and the logo is a wheelchair.

But accessibility has advantages to all, in ways not necessarily pre-conceived by the authors/designers of software. For the web, different devices emerged in the past few years - mobile phones, PDAs, toilets :) - that had different boundaries for even fully-sighted, mouse-pointing folk, namely small screen sizes and limited/no Javascript. The "accessible" sites still worked, though.

I'll never get a date now! by pair-a-noyd · 2003-12-19 03:38 · Score: 5, Funny

2.6.0, 3.2 and R.o.T.K. all about the same time?!

Where will I ever find the time to get a life!

Re:I'll never get a date now! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-19 03:58 · Score: 2, Funny

What's really sad is that any of us on this Board knows instantly what you are referring to when you simply state "2.6.0, 3.2, and R.o.T.K."

Show that list to the man on the street and he'll say, "Huh?"

Re:This may prove useful to ordinary people as wel by Dreadlord · 2003-12-19 03:42 · Score: 2, Informative

You have a valid point, but actually you don't need a mouse to fix Linux software problems, one of the features I like about Linux, when the GUI fails, you can always use the command line and edit some config files, and voila, it's back to normal, OSes that rely heavily on the GUI are vulnerable to being completely inaccessible when the GUI fails, and you know, the command line is more likely to be still working when problems occur that the GUI system.

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Re:This may prove useful to ordinary people as wel by hviezda14 · 2003-12-19 03:42 · Score: 5, Informative

This is already included in X server (on which KDE is running), if you press SHIFT+NumLock, you can navigate mouse cursor with arrows on numpad.

Not Relevent by brunes69 · 2003-12-19 03:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

XSettings and the Desktop Color Scheme specs only refers to things like mouse curosr movement, drag and drop timeouts, and color schemes, trivial things of that nature. None of the more advanced types of configuration, like positions of panels, menu types, etc, are included in there.

All it is is a standard spec for controlling how happs behave in a fundamental fashion.

KDE and Gnome are so different and have such totally different config architectures (GConf vs. KConfig ) that you'll never be able to manage both with one single spec, unless either one desktop ditches their system and adopts the other (not going to happen ), or someone makes a huge monolithic app that can do both ( would be hideous ).

Re:Not Relevent by nutshell42 · 2003-12-19 04:25 · Score: 4, Interesting

Yeah, Gconf is *so* superior. I always miss the registry when I'm away from Windows, too.
SCNR, really =), cleaning up kcontrol would be a *very good* idea I'm not arguing with you here. I'd really like to see simple and advanced profiles with all the stuff of the Gnome control center plus some essentials (language selection for example) as standard and a seperate section/a big red button for people who want all the settings.
That said one thing I'd like Gnome to reverse is the decision to abolish the apply/ok button in the settings. That's outright dangerous imho.

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Re:Not Relevent by nitehorse · 2003-12-19 06:55 · Score: 4, Informative

FWIW, even though I don't work on GNOME (and I have worked on KConfig and KControl, so I have some idea what I'm talking about in that area at least), GConf is really nothing like the Windows registry. The fact that the GConf editor _looks_ somewhat similar to Regedit is really bad for the GNOME guys because it gives the wrong impression (IMHO), but the underlying system is really absolutely nothing like the evil that is the Windows Registry.

And as far as KControl goes... trust me, work is being done to clean up the mess. :) KDE 3.2 is a pretty big step towards it, but it's not done yet, and there will be much more work to clean things up for KDE 3.3, and KDE4 will likely feature a very different configuration application altogether.

But KDE 3.3 is at least a year away, and KDE4 is (to quote Havoc Pennington) something for the Star-Trek future.

Re:More KDE-GNOME cooperation by be-fan · 2003-12-19 03:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

Its also another example of the KDE side having to wrap GNOME C APIs because the technology transfer is going GNOME -> KDE rather than the other way around. In this case, its perfectly fine (since ATK is superior to anything KDE had), but hopefully, a lot of the superior technology of KDE will make it into GNOME. My biggest fear is that the fact that GNOME is C and C is easier to wrap will make GNOME technologies more prevalent in standards even when the KDE versions are greatly superior.

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A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

OT - KDE as 'default' by mgkimsal2 · 2003-12-19 03:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been reading this for months, people saying that 'distro X has KDE as the default desktop' or 'distro Y uses Gnome by default'.

EVERY distro I've installed over the last 3 years *asks* me which desktop managers I want to install. Although this decision is generally put on par with choosing whether you want to install 'games' or 'server software' or 'scientific' software, it's still a decision you're expected to make. I don't think any distro I've ever installed just puts a desktop on by default with no choice (save for Knoppix).

What have I missed in these wars where certain distros make the choice for you? I've installed mandrake, redhat, suse, plain debian, knoppix and and caldera over the years.

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Re:OT - KDE as 'default' by NTmatter · 2003-12-19 04:37 · Score: 3, Informative

Knoppix actually does give you some choice as to the desktop you use - it's just slightly hidden. When you boot the CD, hit F2 (I think) and it'll give you a list of options that you can pass to the initialization scripts. Among these options is "desktop=foo". I prefer Fluxbox, as it loads significantly faster than KDE does from a CD. There's about 8 other WM's to try, so you've got your pick of the litter.

So, just type the following when you reach the Knoppix splash screen:

knoppix desktop=fluxbox

From a user: Thank you! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-19 04:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

I lost most of the use of my fingers and 40 percent of my vision in a chemical accident 15 years ago. I am so glad to see linux taking steps to make things more usable for people like me. I truly feel linux will soon take the lead in accessibility (not to mention stability and performance) from Microsoft very soon. Thank you linux hackers!

--Berry

Re:QT, GTK+, KDE, ATK, ugh... by damiam · 2003-12-19 04:03 · Score: 4, Informative

QT and GTK are toolkits - libraries that display stuff (windows, toolbars, buttons, text boxes, etc.) on the screen. KDE is a desktop environment - a set of programs that use the QT toolkit to create a user interface. ATK is a set of accessability standards, which are now supported by KDE and GNOME, the two majro desktop environments.

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KDE OpenOffice Link by mamer-retrogamer · 2003-12-19 04:06 · Score: 2, Informative

Slashdotted.

Only the KDE/Qt OpenOffice port link at dot.kde.org was in Google's cache: porting OpenOffice to Qt/KDE

Direct link to kde.openoffice.org

-Mike

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Re:KDE zealots Translate-o-matic! by FuzzyBad-Mofo · 2003-12-19 04:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

I currently use Blackbox because it's more lightweight than either KDE or Gnome, it loads almost instantly. It can run GTK+ or QT apps just fine, too. So what are these "desktop environments" doing that takes so much resources? (honestly!)

Re:KDE 3.2 will NOT be accessibility-ready by Karma+Sucks · 2003-12-19 04:15 · Score: 2, Informative

It's been backported and will likely be in Qt 3.3. That's what makes KDE 3.2 accessibility ready.

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I found KDE to have too much of everything by xutopia · 2003-12-19 04:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm glad they have this accessibility thing but unless they do some usability efforts people like me will go for the unKluttered look of Gnome.

Disabled access by Alan+Cox · 2003-12-19 05:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

"eople with special needs have to pay more, because special needs cost more."

Except that disabilities often make it hard for them to pay at all. Think of it as an investment instead. If you make something accessible to the disabled it means they can contribute more to society and you won't be paying their unemployment instead. It means they'll be productive and more importantly happier and more empowered.

A lot of disabled access tools are also the same tools people that you often don't think of as disabled need - older people tend to lose their ability to focus well and benefit from maginfiers and chunky displays. People with arthtritis benefit from some of the other control features and so on.

And for the totally selfish: Its always worth remembering that by the time you are 70 you too will probably have poor eyesight, poor mobility and poor motion control.

Because accessibility tools exist there are a lot of productive people out there, including people writing Linux kernel code that most of the world doesn't even know are blind or otherwise disabled.

Re:Disabled access by GigsVT · 2003-12-19 07:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm by no means against accessibility tools.

What I am against is a sense of entitlement (which I was getting from the original post), and any government interference and legislation that forces the majority to do things to accmodate a tiny minority.

I'm all for businesses and projects keeping accessibility in mind. Good UI design and accessibility go hand in hand often.

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Re:Major inroads need to be make by asobala · 2003-12-19 06:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

If you actually use Window's accessibility features, you will find them sadly lacking. Actually trying to navigate the desktop just using ATs is very difficult, lots of apps take no notice of the system settings, etc.

I am not an accessibility expert, but there have been some studies to suggest ATK is ahead of Windows here.

MOD PARENT DOWN: REPOST by the+man+with+the+pla · 2003-12-19 08:00 · Score: 2, Informative

This post is ripped off from this post

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KDE Gains Full Accessibility Support

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