Slashdot Mirror
8th Grader Suspended for Using 'net send' Command
HRH King Lerxst writes: "The Fort Worth Star-Telegram has an article detailing how a middle school student was suspended for three days for 'hacking.' His hack? Sending a popup message to the other computers in the school...from within the shcool." The 8th grader in question used the "net send" command to send a single word message ("Hey!") to the 80 machines tied to his school's network. How this can be construed as "hacking", I leave up to you.
This does remind me of my school days, I got apprehended because I was playing with a magnet during lesson. It also reminded me what school (well, Italian school to be precise) seems to be all about: taking away the fun away from culture.
:-)
;-P
Because that's what hacking is, it's a form of culture and fun. And that 13 y.o. boy is a hacker, or at least he has a hacker attitude, which is good! Honest fun with computers should be encouraged by the school, not reprehended.
And did you read the email from the teacher? "Before you make comments you should be a teacher". Quite typical. Using the same argument I would then say, well, before calling someone a hacker, you should be a hacker too, right?
Oh, by the way, when I was his age I was hacking my Speccy... fortunately for me, it was not in that school otherwise I would have got expelled!
Now for the karma whoring: "It's Micro$oft's fault! If they used Linux then there wouldn't have been any chance of NET SENDs"
By the way, what would have happened if he did launched a batch file like this (say it's called a.bat)
net send foo Hey!
call a.bat
? That IS annoying...
My Stack Overflow user
Most schools have a usage policy to which all students must agree before using computer resources. The article doesn't state whether use of the "net send" command is permitted or not.
I know it's not hacking, but it can be seen (incorrectly, of course) as a subversive activity by paranoid faculty. Imagine if the student were Arab-American, and was sending "Hey!" in Middle East-speak. All hell might break loose.
After some kids realized that net send was annoying and unblocked the district decided to punish all that used it (and got caught of course).
But, all they had to do was disable windows messenger service...
This really shows the naivety of some of our schools towards technology, which in my school, was always a huge problem. Teachers could NOT keep up with the kids in computer classes, which left a whole slew of kids "left behind" per se (thanks Bush).
paul
...because the people in charge (Teachers, parents, school board, etc) don't understand what's going on.
It's just that simple. Whenever someone does something with a computer that they don't understand, it's hacking. A High School friend of mine got accused of 'hacking' by downloading Netscape once.
Fear and ignorance, ignorance and fear...
=Smidge=
His mistake was in not using the samba version of the command. There, you can manually specify the name presented for the sending party. Sending a message from the headmaster asking if any teachers could bum a smoke? Now that would have made the three day suspension something to be proud of!
One wonders if using writing as a form of punishment could be giving kids the impression that writing is an unpleasant task, which would diminish their desire to spend effort on any future writing tasks.
From the article the teacher was quoted as saying, "Hacking into a system should be highest on the list of tampering violations. I believe the other students are now aware that the district takes this seriously and will not tolerate such misuse of our equipment." In addition to "Rollins told me that students had been using campus computers in unacceptable ways, and he hoped to make an example of Carl."
It looks like to me that the teachers can't/won't secure the computers and decided to throw the book at the first kid to do something that they were able to catch in hopes that it scares the others into submission.
The writer seems to get two important things - that using net send is certainly not hacking, and deeming it so is demonstrative of the school district's lack of understanding of a subject area they purport to teach.
How about emailing the principal of that school and telling him what you think of his actions?
meh.
Most of the people who run our public educational system are, unfortunately, not very well rounded. Often they are too quick to make presumptions while drowning in ignorance.
Back in my computer class in high school, I often finished my assignments way ahead of schedule, so I had a lot of free time.
We had a Novell network where I managed to gobble up 25% of the network storage space by hiding my files in a directory with a difficult-to-type name.
The teacher couldn't figure out how to delete my files, so he wrote me up (without even asking me to delete them).
Since the school didn't have any classification for this kind of "deviant" behavior, they decided to call it "computer vandalism", and gave me the same punishment as regular school vandalism, three days suspension.
If they had asked, I would have just deleted the files.
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
It certainly warrant some action, though most here would argue against it. After all, it does affect every computer on the network, and you and I would hang the kid if the message was spam.
But a suspension? A three day suspension? Friends of mine have been suspended for less for bringing weapons to school. That one was bullshit too, but at least was a bit more understandable. Now this, a kid is suspended for doing something not forbidden (oh, they have rules against 'hacking'? Then it's their responsibility to understand the term).
And as for that teacher, she's right. Most people have no idea what the inside of a classroom is right. Of course, it seems she doesn't either. Any competent teacher should recognize that experimentation leads to the most learning.
Second, it doesn't sound like he did it during a class. It may warrant a detention if the child habitually ignored the teacher for his own experimentation, however this doesn't seem to be the case.
The primary problem I see with education is that it is nearly impossible to evaluate teachers. If good teachers (and there are a lot of them) could be supported and not interfered with by others, it would be great. But this isn't the case. The good teachers out there are more than offset by ignorant policies, moronic teachers, incompetant administrators, and yuppie families.
If I were only looking at education, the future would look really bleak. Fortunately, kids seem pretty good at surviving their schooling.
I've never known anyone who is really proficient user to say nothing of becoming a programmer or administrator who doesn't experiment. It's the people who are afraid to touch anything on their computer who drive me nuts. You can't teach them anything because they are to afraid they will damage something.
Take a kid with a bit of curiosity using a command that the school made available to him and saying nothing more than "Hey" and expelling him for being curious and experimenting with things. This is a really sad statement on how this school is run. And the pundits lament the low numbers of students who go into science/math/etc. With curiosity beaten out of them it's no wonder.
Disclaimer: I couldn't get the article to load so I'm only going on the posted message. There may be more to the story than I know.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
Sure, but I wonder if paper/detention/whatever is really WARRANTED. A verbal warning should have been MORE than sufficient, considering the incident is so absolutely minor as to be worthless.
Maybe I'm biased, though.. I nearly got suspended for miskeying ctrl-something or another years ago on an old Apple 2 wordprocessor. The thing beeped, the instructor freaked, and I was accused of hacking. I was just lucky that someone with a CLUE caught the situation and defused it before it got all the way to the top and I ended up suspended..
One thing's for sure-- I think the fearmongering amongst the ignorant teachers and administration needs to stop. This has been out of control for a long time..
No, if they are allowed to experiment and do things ANYWHERE that they have not been given specific permission to do, it's called learning. Why should computers be any different?
He learned this command from his father and decided to experiment with it at school. Are educators now in the business of making children afraid to experiment and learn?
Back when I was in elementary school we were encouraged to experiment with computers as long as we followed the guidelines. If we encountered an issue where the guidelines were unclear on, our teacher told us what we did that may proove to be problematic later and the guidelines were updated.
It would be interesting to note if the school has updated their guidelines on this topic and have take the (simple) steps necessary to insure this doesn't happen again, but saying that what this kid did was wrong is borderlining on the dangerous.
Is it any wonder why some people grow up afraid to learn computers? I'd hazard to say maybe we'd do well to have better trained educators and more concise guidelines rather than knee-jerk suspensions and "computer educators" that don't know how to secure their own networks, nor how to handle the children whom the parents put in their care!
Good thing I am not as young as this kid. I have played plenty of net send pranks.
I remember my first CS lab where the TA had his computer hooked up to the projector. I kept sending him messages that the network was going down in five minutes. He sarcastically responded, "Uh oh, guess I better do as the computer says".
If I was 10 years younger it'd be me getting suspended in Junior High. I guess that is a big difference about college. No hand holding. Nobody cares if you are not learning crap, so you are best learning and experimenting as much as possible on your own.
Later on when I was a lab assistant. I put my junior programming skills to the test and built a GUI in front of netsend to make it more like a AIM. Pretty soon most of the lab assistants were using it to message each other and broadcast messages informational messages to the users, like the lab was closing. From what Beverly Sweeny was saying, that is exactly what she does not want the kids to do. The kids should not experiment, only do what she says. That way she can proliferate the next generation of retarded users.
Funny how you spin a tech guy hired at a grade-school to be GW Bush's downfall.
Like him or not, this is *not* the presidents fault.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"
- Charles Darwin
Mrs. Sweeney's page has pictures of two of her 'star students', along with their names.
Their policy documents online >> student records >> legal show that that is a release of personally identifiable information. Just their names would be fine, or just their photos, but as it sits, unless she has the proper paperwork showing that it is a proper release of information, she is breaking at least state law and her district's policy.
[having worked with my own local school district in the past, they require all web pages to be screened to make sure that (1) only a first name shows up on the web page, and (2) no student can be tied to a photo.]
In fact, those photos with their first names could stop them from receiving federal funding for improper use of directory information.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Yep. In my case, circa 1984 on an Apple ][ at lunchtime:This little bit of "hacking" got me banned from the computer lab for the rest of the year, depriving me of the chance to play with the brand-new Macintosh they'd just received. This punishment sucked total ass at the time, but as things turned out, being forced to stick with my old Apple ][+ at home was the best thing that could have happened to me. By investing all my learning time in the 6502, I managed to build the necessary skills to drop out of real life and join the game industry, hacking Ultimas at Origin Systems.
Like the Dread Pirate himself said: "I, myself, am often surprised at life's little quirks."
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
Actually, I blame the principal, the district AND the administrator! I do alot of volunteer work at my son's school as a technologist. I fix the machines, install network runs, etc. I'm also the president of the PTA that pays the two computer lab assistants.
I think this was like dropping a nuke on a kid with a lemonaide stand because they didn't have a business license!
Yep -the kid did the equivalent of a farting noise in the classroom. That is objectionable behavior - so some disciplinary action is reasonable - but suspension?
Further - this district has NO PUBLISHED POLICY on whether this was appropriate behavior or not! So they use the nuclear option! That's shear nonsense...let the punishment fit the crime. Why not a letter home to the parents, and let them discipline the kid???????
In my kid's district there is a published acceptable computer usage policy, a published discipline policy with a graduated response, and a requirment that teachers will oversee the computer usage. Lastly, parents have to sign documents saying they have reviewed all of the above. So no surprises!
In my mind, not having all of these policies in place puts the district and staff in the guilt column right there along with the kid - Gee - you broke a rule I just made up so I'm throwing you out of school. That doesn't play well with me!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Should the student have done it? No. He was probably feeling just as clever and superior for his technical knowledge of the net send command. And he probably did it for showing off. Nothing bad about that, but at the same time, he knew that he would annoy a lot of people. He shouldn't need a written policy to tell him to not annoy 50 people through the net send command. He should be able to deduce that from common sense.
Is it right to suspend him? Maybe. I'm not sure I understand all these crazy american school policies anymore, but a fair comparison would be with graffiti or tagging, but without the economic damages. I am not sure being suspended for three days is over the top for that. But it sure isn't way beyond reasonable imagination. Move on, I'm sure you are able to find better examples of injustice than this.
Dear Mr. Rollins,
_ li eber/7643262.htm
Before continueing, I might want to inform you that the following article has appeared on a major internet website, one visited by tens of thousands of technicians and other professionals a day. You may want to prepare your inbox.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/columnists/dave
As per the content of the article, it may be biased, but I am writing to assure you of the following:
The "net send" command is in no way a 'hacking' tool. "Net" is a command used by windows/windows-users for many network tasks, and "net send" is a communication command which does not adversely affect any machine.
Furthermore, the punishment for this "offense" seems neither fair nor warranted? You may not think that I have any cognisance of the type of things that occur in schools, but I can assure you - as an IT support technician/admin for a school-district - that I know a great deal about it. This problem would have been easily dealt with, and any issues caused by it not warranting such a punishment.
Furthermore, the student - in investigating parts of computing that are obscure to many - seems to be showing promise and intelligence. To attack the natural curiousity of the student is to stifle his natural inclination to learn and investigate. Rather than punishment, you should consider giving the student materials to learn about computing in a way that might be more productive and advanced than "net send."
Certainly I myself did a certain amount of investigating and playing with such commands when I first gained interest in computing. As my teachers promoted my curiousity I eventually found a lucrative career in both computer programming and administration. Had such a punishment been meted to me, it may have impaired the drive which brought me to my current employment.
Please consider that while the commands used may be obscure to many, they are not highly technical nor dangerous in nature. An offensive action taken against the unknown is neither ethical nor mature in nature, and such reactions should be the bane of modern education.
Sincerely,
(my name here)
IT Support Administration
(and yes, I do work in educational IT support. suspension for net send would be laughable in comparison to the other things students try to do or do here)
This network administrator (me) did disable the command line and the run button, but still had this happen at our public library. Since M$ Word seems to require access to the desktop, the clever teen wrote a one line batch file in Word, and saved it as text with a CMD extention onto the desktop. If it becomes an epidemic, I may have to go one more step and delete net.exe or at least rename it on public terminals. Still, I think the teen was pleased when I walked up to him an congratulated him for his ingenuity. I just asked him not to do it again and not to tell his friends. I have not had another incident since.
We win together or suffer without.
The way I see it, this is just a symptom of the larger problem: that of non-programmers who literally do not know ANYTHING about computers per se defining "computer literacy" as being able to run a few M$ pointy-clicky apps--because that's all they know how to do.
Now it's not a problem if these people stay in the f-ing typing pool, graphic arts sweatshops, stupid little bookkeeping jobs, or teaching history where they bleeding well belong. It does become a problem when the Beverly Sweeneys of this world get positions of authority which they're fundamentally unqualified to fill, and find themselves feeling threatened by anyone who knows more than themselves--and acting on their feelings of inadequacy with high-handedness.
Having a Beverly Sweeney teaching Integrated Technology Applications because she got a cert or two in running a few pointy-clicky M$ Applications is like hiring someone as a music teacher because they know how to play CDs on their stereo, who then busts students who play an actual musical instrument in class -- because it's not "an approved application". Sheesh!
Just look at her CompLit/TechApp webpage. In particular notice this image where she adds the label: "Sometimes this is how we feel !!!" She apparently finds computers difficult and frustrating.
Someone who finds math frustrating is obviously a poor choice to teach calculus. Someone who finds computers frustrating is obviously a poor choice to teach computers.
According to her bio she seems well qualified in "social" fields, but she's just not a techie. She thinks the ordinary use of the net send command is "tampering" and "hacking". The certification program she took in computers didn't mention it therefore it must be "evil hacker black-magic". Sorry lady, it's not tampering and it's not hacking.
If they want to reprimand the kid for "being disruptive", fine. What he did was no more disruptive than sticking his head out in the hallway and shouting "Hey!". That warrants a warning, or at most detention.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
That is so true, everyone knows Bush has nothing to do with schools or education.
Slashdot Eds Link Anonymous Posts With Logged Posts
They Are Vermin Feeding On Each Other's Feces.
I Hate \.
The control issue is real. Why?
I think it is all the lawyers. When I went to school, things were not as bad. The staff had a lot more options compared to today.
Schools do not teach ethics and citizenship. Afraid they might offend somebody. In fact, most of the problems today boil down to lame procedures designed by lawyers to maintain a high level of "liability managment."
The schools would not have to go through the crap they have to today, if the parents were more involved. Nothing worse than a problem kid with rich, uninvolved parents willing to sue the school when something happens to their kid.
I have 4 kids and stay right on top of what they are doing in school. Takes a lot of time most of my peers are not willing to give. As they get older, the differences are beginning to show.
As an involved parent, I am qualified to say this would not happen with my kid. The suspension is bullshit plain and simple. Schools are supposed to be places where we build new citizens one kid at a time. Giving smart kids the smackdown because the staff is too uninformed to understand their behaviour is sensless.
The schools work for us. They don't often want to admit that, but the truth is they do. With this particular kid, they have just sent a message and shaped a couple of values in his mind that are unacceptable at best, scarring at worst.
In this case, both are at fault. The school being driven by its lawyers and the state instead of its responsibility to society, and the parents for letting this crap stand.
I know the schools have it tough, but if this were my kid, I would be in the office that day, and would stay until the suspension was revoked. Clearly the educators need to get some education themselves, and I would press this point hard.
Nobody wants a lawsuit over something this small, but we don't want our kids becoming compliant drones either.
In my experience, once this is explained to the staff, this sort of thing goes away pretty quickly. When they realize they are going to deal with a parent who knows the rules and the law and cares about their kid, they back off and pester the other kids whose parents don't care.
Another thing about this that burns my ass: I would be happy to work with kids in school for a few years. I have a lot to give, practical experience, and enjoy the subject matter. Plenty of other people I know are in a similar position.
You would think the State government would have programs in place to take advantage of this for technical subject matter, but they don't. Sorry if I offend a teacher or two, but the truth is most grade / high school computer educators really have no clue. I am sure they are fine people, working hard to make the best of the situation they are in, but still it sucks to know my kids could be getting much better...
Blogging because I can...