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New Sony Minidisc Players

Posted by michael on from the restricted-and-proprietary dept.

Andy_R writes "Sony's has announced it's new new range of Hi-MD players at the CES show. The range of players (which should hit the shops in April) will start below $200 for a device that can function as a USB hard drive as well as storing a claimed 45 hours of music. The twist is that the data is stored on a new type of removable 1Gb media, a development of the minidisk format, with blanks costing about $7 each. The BBC have some more details including backwards compatibility with old-style minidisks and an ominous mention of 'built-in copyright protection' but I can't find anything on Sony's official site yet." Another reader reader submitted some pictures and specifications (pdf).

29 of 436 comments (clear)

  1. What's the point? by jargoone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reason I got a HDD mp3 player was because I was tired of carrying media around with me. mp3 CD players can be had for less than $100 for a good one. The media for this thing doesn't hold much more than a CDRW, and each "disc" costs about as much as a spindle of CDRWs. Couple that with the fact that in order to get the capacity of a 20G HDD mp3 player, you'd wind up spending just as much. And carrying discs around. Then add in DRM, in typical Sony fashion. Screw that.

    I predict minidisc will continue to be Sony's ed-headed stepchild.

    1. Re:What's the point? by FerretOnMountDew · · Score: 5, Informative

      MDs are great. They combine the size of a flashcard-style mp3 player with the removable media features of a cd/cdrw mp3 player. And cost a bit less to replace than a HDD player.

      Personally, I've been eyeing a sony md player for a bit, but I think I'll hold off for the new 1gb md format to pan out a little. If nothing else, it'll drive the cost of the older-style players down a bit. Hopefully, the 1gb format will take off, though.

      Now an annoying DRM is a different story. And that will be the only factor (for me) which will make or break it in the long run.

      --
      Please, do not read this sig
    2. Re:What's the point? by IWorkForMorons · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've recently seen an inexpensive MP3/CD player with 2 minutes of MP3 anti-skip. I personally had to continuously tap that thing for 5 minutes to get it to start skipping. Of course I was also defending myself from the young child who's MP3 player I was constantly hitting, so that could have given it the chance to recover once or twice.

    3. Re:What's the point? by webtre · · Score: 5, Interesting

      DAT is a ten year old perfectly good technology. I defy anyone to walk into a mall and find a DAT device, a Digitam Minidisc, or a host of others. People simply won't buy a crippled product, therefor an entire decade of technologies were exterminated. This is what happens when the law attempts to impose DRM.

      --
      litigious bastards
      suck it sco!
    4. Re:What's the point? by gemseele · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why? Because those HDD mp3 players (nomad, ipod) have crap for battery life. Portable mp3 CD players are nice but don't fit in my pocket nicely like my NetMD. Minidiscs are also more robust than CDRW for carrying around and re-writing to. Plus you don't need a computer to record.

      I'll admit that Sony did practically destroy it's own creation with all of it's annoying restrictions including the inability use the media as data storage. It would have made the perfect replacement for the floppy disc, zip disc, etc.

    5. Re:What's the point? by hanssprudel · · Score: 3, Funny

      The harddisk players have no issues with jogging, walking, running, etc. None. Plenty of people jog with there ipods, and I have never heard of anyone having a problem with it.

      While the old CD player may have had a couple of seconds of cache for skip protection, the ipod has half an hours worth. I have dropped mine on hard floors several times, and it doesn't even stop playing.

      This is just a common misconception, carried down from the eightees when you weren't allowed to breath while files loaded for fear of crashing the read head...

  2. Floppydisk replacement by radoni · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I always thought of MiniDisc medium as the potential to replace the floppydisk. Sort of a wet dream for MO medium in common use. Lack of a drive to read/write to MiniDiscs as computer storage, high prices, and availability of writable CD's killed this one, but i wouldn't be suprised if sony is able to jump on it with a 1gb format.

    --
    SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
  3. Minidisc audio quality vs. your avg. "MP3 player" by klipsch_gmx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wonder how many people are turned off of personal digital audio players by the compromised sound quality of lossy codecs? The price per megabyte isn't nearly so attractive for those that prefer lossless quality.

    When MiniDisc was new (and expensive), manufacturers targeted audiophiles while the advertising emphasized custom mixes and sound quality (even though ATRAC is also lossy). With "MP3 players," the emphasis is usually on quantity, not quality. Being able to accomodate realtime filters like DFX might be a way to find some middle ground.

    I realize that most consumers either tolerate or are unaware of the fidelity loss, hence the continued dominance of the now inferior MP3 format. Still, I think that in order for this market to grow more quickly, it should educate consumers about the options available to them with these devices: CD quality if you want it, or OGG (etc.) if you want more tracks per MB.

  4. Minidiscs as removable media by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Finally being able to use MDs as removable media is really great. I remember hearing about a drive for the old MDs that was intended for using them as data storage, but I've never seen one.

    These new MDs coul be a viable replacement for CD-roms, but only if they aren't bogged down with DRM. A physically small, 1GB disc in a protective caddy. It's almost too good to be true.

    --
    Eat the rich.
  5. Compatible with PC. What about Mac? Linux? by aflat362 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "Hi-MD" uses the FAT file system, making it possible to use "Hi-MD" formatted MDs and 1GB "Hi-MD" discs as versatile media for recording PC data files, such as images and text. Furthermore, as portable, rewritable PC media, "Hi-MD" complies with USB format's Mass Storage Class, ensuring that simply by connecting a "Hi-MD" product to a PC it is immediately recognized as an external storage device.

    What do you think, Mac, Linux compatible?

    --

    Conserve Oil, Recycle, Boycott Walmart

  6. DRM on Old (and probably new) minidiscs. by nemui-chan · · Score: 3, Informative

    The only complaint I currently have about my minidisc is the drm technology on it now. While you can copy any media to your minidisc using the supplied software (and any other software I've seen works the same way), you can only copy the media back onto the pc it was checked out from. If your pc crashes, then you're pretty much out of luck, and you better hope that minidisc lasts.

  7. In other news... by ballpoint · · Score: 3, Funny

    Intel announces 4004C CPU
    Microsoft announces Windows 98TE
    Apple announces Apple IV
    etc. etc. etc.

    --
    Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
  8. Re:why use MD if there are mp3 players... by mashx · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Personally: 'Cos MD sounds better than MP3, I am not aware of any available MP3 recorders, especially not portable MP3 recorders. I use my MD as recording my (DJ) sets, and that is not just at home, but when I'm playing out.

    However, I don't like the Sony MD, and have always had Sharp. If there is one thing that will definitely prevent me from using this is the DRM.

    --

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
  9. Last thing I need is to store more discs.... by addie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Man, I hate moving. Each time, I have to lug my boxes of hundreds of CD's, it's just ridiculous. Thankfully my new iPod has changed all that.

    So I ask, isn't this a step backwards? A 1GB disc for $7 seems like a good deal, but a HD-based digital music player with 40GB is already available... let's do the math.

    [$7 (per disc) x 40 (GB)] + $200 (player) = $480

    Which, while just over half the cost of a 40GB iPod at the moment, hardly seems worth it given the lack of convenience. Am I missing something? Why move back to a removable storage based system, something we've been moving away from for the last decade?

    1. Re:Last thing I need is to store more discs.... by misterpies · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A few advantages of this system over iPods and the like:

      1. lose (or break) your ipod and you lose all the data on it. lose/break your minidisc player and you've lost maximum 1Gb.

      2. even with DRM, you can still lend/borrow friends' discs. Without needing a computer or a network.

      3. You don't need a computer to take advantage of Gb music storage. Believe or not, there are many people who don't own computers and even more who do own them but only use them for web browsing and email. With an MD player, you can just feed in a signal from any audio source to record tracks. My sister is a musician and uses an MD to record tracks created on an analog multitrack tape recorder.

      4. More hardware choice (in the long term) and easier hardware upgrades. Buy a newer player, use the old discs.

      5. Less risk when transporting data. Walking around with a $7 minidisc is a lot less worrying than carrying a $250 player.

      Finally, if this thing takes off then big price drops are likely. iPods are expensive because miniature HDs are expensive, and Apple's strategy has consistently been to increase capacity rather than drop price. But for most non-musically-obsessed people, who have been using walkmans and discmans happily for years, 1-2Gb will easily fulfill all their mobile music needs. (Apple has finally figured this out, hence the mini-iPod. But theyre still going after the premium market.) 1Gb MD players have the potential to be sold in Wal-Mart in a couple of years for double-digit prices. The disks will probably come down to under a dollar. Apple, to judge by the last 20 years, will never get into the low-margin, high-volume business that is Sony's specialty.

      Instead of dissing this, you should hail it as bringing Gb storage to the masses.

      Now, where's the real geek argument about whether sony measures GBs as binary or decimal powers?

      --
      The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
  10. Copyright Protection Technology by burgburgburg · · Score: 4, Informative
    From the PDF:

    4) Copyright Protection Technology
    To prevent an illegal copying of digital content, "Hi-MD" incorporates OpenMG and MagicGate technology, already adopted in Memory Stick and Net MD for content management to ensure that music content stored on a "Hi-MD" disc will be encrypted. "Hi-MD" also conforms to the Serial Copy Management System (SCMS).

  11. brief moment in time by Matey-O · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Computer technology is a series of advancements going from one technology to another until specific issues are solved. For the next two years (and past couple) the problem has been small portable storage.

    (Case in point, an average $60 video card can drive a higher resolution, and higher refresh rate than most monitors can now support. Video is a solved technology, especially in light of the issues of the past -- EGA, monochrome high resolution)

    I'm seriously jonesing because I can't justify the $200+ a 1gb+ device would cost *cough* iPod mini *cough*. On the other hand, I've got a spool of blank cd-r's and a _$30_ cd/mp3 player that'll play them.

    So, 640 mb per $0.05 disk, and $30 for the player and a total library of 22 Gb (12 Gb of which I'll never EVER listen to) it's going to take a LOT of improvement in data density/cost to justify another device purchase.

    --
    "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
  12. reliability by radoni · · Score: 5, Insightful

    you cannot beat the reliability of a magneto-optical drive (essentially what a minidisc format functions as). i don't trust an unprotected cdrom disc with my data for more than a few minutes, and a protected one will degrade over a few years. some of my early mp3 backup discs have already "faded" with time, despite being kept in their oldschool caddy trays.

    --
    SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
  13. MD is still good for audio production by E-Lad · · Score: 3, Informative


    I use my Sony Net-MD player with a condenser mic to make field recordings. The only problem with Sony and it's "Copyright Protection" is that it doesn't allow you to transfer audio over the USB connect FROM the MD player TO the computer.

    So basically, any recordings you make need to be transfered analog into your computer's sound card.

    There have been petitions in the past from the MD users community demanding Sony allow bi-directional USB transfers, but because Sony has it's music label/tech world schizophrenia, it's never going to happen.

    Right now, the only thing that is reasonably priced and does do this is the Nomad 3 from Creative, but I want something with better A/D conversion than what it has.

  14. Big deal in Japan not the US by servognome · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The US portable audio market is dominated by HDD/Flash players, MD has never become a big player in the US except for audiophiles and digital recording. It is a big thing in Japan, I was there recently and MD is the primary portable audio hardware. From Sony's report they are expecting to ship 8M units of the physcal year almost half going to the Japanese market. So before you dismiss MD as an also ran, there is a large market. For DRM issues, the format does not allow second generation digital copies to be made, that means that you can't copy music digitally from MD. Its not actually that big of a deal since most MD recorders/players do not have digital outputs, then again neither do most HDD/flash based players.

    --
    D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
  15. The More Important Issue by WebMasterP · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think the more important underlying issue is that we slashdotted Sony's web site (the one with the pictures). Seriously, this is Sony we're talking about here... WTF?

  16. years late by happyfrogcow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sony is late and wrong on everything MD. having bought a MD recorder back in the day (why did they even bother making MD that could only play and not record?) i've always felt it could have been so much better. First of all, it takes however long the track is to transfer it too and from the computer or other device. Maybe it's different with the optical in/out, but i never had anything to plug that into. If they had made it a dual functioning device to begin with (ie, audio read/write AND data read/write with no data loss) it would have been more well recieved. they wouldn't have even needed to allow for both types on the same disc.

    How cool would it have been to use a MD recorder as a portable tape drive? i think it would have been very cool. Small, protected discs with decent storage capacity.

    Sony over-specialized this product to death. It was nice to use to record an occasional concert, and to record myself and friends musical sessions. It just could have had so many more uses.

    You almost had it right, Sony. I'd still consider buying something new and less specialized (no DRM, no one-way USB, better transfer methods in general) from someone if it was able to use minidiscs as the media. I'm still wishing I or someone else was able to do some hardware hack to make the original MD recorders more functional along these terms.

    The media cost for MD wouldn't be so bad if it had other uses such as data backup. how much to tapes cost these days? a MD is what, maybe a dollar each? expensive compared to CD's but cheaper than tapes i imagine.

  17. Once again, Sony launch ANOTHER media format by Wonderkid · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This new Minidisc announcement is more evidence of the fact Sony want people to spent their money on the media, not the device. It's an obsolete paradigm thanks to the iPod and excellent Flash based devices from companies like iRiver. What makes things even worse, is that the media for sony's forthcoming games machine, the PSP, is once again different. There is no media transparency. If they are going to use removable media, why not just stick to Memory Stick, a nice reliable solid state medium, where just 3 or 4 5gig sticks would hold the average person's lifetime music collection.

    --

    O'WONDERWe're working on it.

  18. Re:Compatible with PC. What about Mac? Linux? by merlin_jim · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Hi-MD" uses the FAT file system, making it possible to use...

    Furthermore, as portable, rewritable PC media, "Hi-MD" complies with USB format's Mass Storage Class

    What do you think, Mac, Linux compatible?

    Absolutely.

    Guess what? EVERY USB Mass Storage Device uses FAT for storage. If you can connect a digital camera to it, you can attach this to it, because all digital cameras use FAT. That's how those USB readers can work, BTW... standardized storage format...

    --
    I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
  19. Sony's new copy protection by teamhasnoi · · Score: 4, Funny
    After getting my hands on a prototype, I have found that due to US Treasury restrictions, the new Sony Minidisc Player will not allow any content containing the word, "money".

    As it happens, this rejects the following songs:

    ABBA - "Money, Money, Money"
    COOL MO D - "Mo' Money"
    PINK FLOYD - "Money"
    PET SHOP BOYS - "Opportunities (Let's Make Lots Of Money)"
    BEATLES - "Money"
    PRIMITIVE RADIO GODS - "Standing Outside A Broken Phone Booth (With Money In My Hand)"
    SUPERGRASS - "In It For The Money"
    PSYCHEDELIC FURS - "All That Money Wants"
    RAGGA TWINS - "Money"
    DIRE STRAITS - "Money For Nothing"
    WONDERSTUFF - "It's Yer Money I'm After Baby"
    PATTI SMITH - "Free Money"
    LIVING COLOUR - "Money Talks"
    LOU REED - "No Money Down"
    BIG PIG - "Money God"
    PRINCE - "Money Don't Matter"
    PINK FLOYD - "Money"
    STEVE VAI - "Dirty Cash"
    STYLE COUNCIL - "Money Go Round"
    TOM WAITS - "Til The Money Runs Out"
    CYNDI LAUPER - "Money Changes Everything"
    FLYING LIZARDS - "Money"
    NEIL YOUNG - "Loose Change"
    NENEH CHERRY - "Money Love"
    SMASHING PUMPKINS - "Pennies"
    AC/DC - "Money Talks"
    DONNA SUMMER - "She Works Hard For The Money"
    MORPHINE - "Murder For The Money"
    THE CHURCH - "Blood Money"
    MICHAEL JACKSON - "Money"
    EVERCLEAR - "Heartspark Dollarsign"
    SPINAL TAP - "Gimme Some Money"
    PRETENDERS - "Brass In Pocket"
    PUFF DADDY - 'It's All About the Benjamins'

    Plus many, many more. I cannot recommend this product in its current form, as this is unresonable copy protection.

    Strangely, REM's - "It's the End of the World as We Know It (and I Feel Fine) plays perfectly. Hmm. Nothing beats apathy.

  20. These things *are* useful by alleycat0 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I use a portable minidisk recorder for recording practice sessions and band gigs - *far* superior to tape, and easier to interface than a DAT.

    What i'd really like to know (can't glean from the links mentioned) is if i can directly access tracks recorded in the field from the PC interface - if so, that would be a significant advantage over the current generation of recorders.

    --
    I am not a number - I am a free man!
  21. The new Hi-MD players support USB file storage! by zardie · · Score: 3, Informative

    For some reason, Slashdot editors neglected to include the fact that you can use this to store data as well as music now (I was the 'Another reader' referred to in that post with the real links).

    The unit can be used with either the 300MB (standard MD media) or 1GB (the new Hi-MD format) disks and draws power from USB so that the music player becomes a portable USB storage device. No idea whether it supports the USB mass storage standard or whether it has its own whacky way of doing things, but it's something that should have been possible from the start.

    Any music stored on the device will be visible but protected and the device won't play standard music files if they're simply transferred to the data area. You still need to use SonicStage (the Sony equiv of iTunes) to transfer your files, although there are a few thirty party tools around (such as RealOne) which use the same drivers but sport a much nicer (and stable) interface.

    Needless to say, a 1GB disk should be plenty for keeping documents and such around, perhaps even a bootable linux distro such as Knoppix can be adapted for this, assuming it supports standard USB mass-stroage. Now that'd be cool :)

  22. An open letter to Sony... by jgerry · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Dear Sony,

    I don't want your MiniDisc technology anymore. I'm not interested in your proprietary removeable media formats. Miniature hard drives are here to stay.

    I've owned 3 MiniDisc recorders in the last 4 years. I thought you were helping me out by putting a USB port on your more recent NetMD devices, but you decided that you can't trust me to upload MY OWN RECORDINGS back to my computer via the USB port. Which has left me in the analog realm, forcing me to plug my recorder into the analog inputs of my sound card to digitize my music. MY MUSIC THAT I RECORDED MYSELF. This is unacceptable in today's all-digital environment.

    I will not be purchasing any more of your products in the future. It's not for my lack of trying -- I loved the idea of a small, compact, recording device that I could carry with me anywhere. I bought 3 of them! But now I want more. Now I expect more. I want direct digital USB or Firewire transfers to my computer. And instead of meeting my needs, you've proffered another DRM-crippled, expensive, proprietary format that doesn't do what I want it to.

    Thanks, but no thanks. I'll be looking elsewhere for my next recording and playback device.

    Sincerely,

    A disappointed (former) customer

  23. Re:Sony Has No Chance by zardie · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Quite a lot:

    * iPods have poor battery life compared to the NetMD and Hi-MD units (8 hours spec-sheet vs. about 30)
    * iPods can't record - only accept uploads.
    * iPods are HDD-based, so less resilient.
    * NetMD players are smaller and lighter than even the iPod mini so I would expect the trend to continue with the similar sized Hi-MD walkman.
    * The Hi-MD walkman is the first to support PCM recording - while the iPod can play back PCM wave files, the Hi-MD walkman can also record them in realtime, effectively a pro-sumer solution to the bulky and expensive DAT format.