Major New TiVo Service Offerings

Jeff The Riffer writes "At the Consumer Electronics Show today, Mike Ramsay of TiVo announced three major new product offerings to come in the next year. First off there's the DVD Recorders, HD DVR, and Home Networked Enabled Products. TiVo/DVD Recorder boxes have been out for a bit now but looks like the offerings will continue and there's going to be new units by Pioneer. Second we have TivoToGo, where TiVo users with Home Media Option will be able to transfer files off their TiVo onto their PC and either play them locally or burn them to DVD. And finally there's XM Radio for TiVo."

Comments

I may be ignorant

[Saven Marek]

> And finally there's XM Radio for TiVo."

Is there a Tivo like device for normal FM or AM radio? I enjoy a few programmes on radio but not too many, and it would be a benefit to record these simply.

I guess I could use my PC for it but it would be more convenient to have a Tivo like option

mac desktops, dare to be nude

HD signal

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not up on the current situation, but isn't the whole point of HD being undercut by broadcasters taking advantage of digital broadcasting to cramm 6 channels into the space of one, thus delivering a very inferior image. I notice this on my non-HD DISHnetwork system, especially in fast motion scenes. The quality is more consistant than what I got over antenae (and a lot more channels), but heavy compression makes the images far more blurry than DVD on the same TV. It makes me worry HD sets won't solve anything except make DVD viewing better.

So, when they say HD-PVR, what kind of compression are we talking about?

Re:HD signal

[Zathrus]

I'm not up on the current situation, but isn't the whole point of HD being undercut by broadcasters taking advantage of digital broadcasting to cramm 6 channels into the space of one, thus delivering a very inferior image

Aiieeee!

No, you're quite thoroughly confused. But that's because the ATSC standard is confusing.

ATSC (Advanced Television Systems Committee) replaces the current NTSC (National ...) standard. It has 18 different modes, ranging from 480i (480 lines of vertical resolution, interlaced) to 720p and 1080i (p = progressive/non-interlaced; which is better depends on what you need. The 1080i has a higher resolution, but 720p is better for fast moving action). The maximum broadcast rate is 21 Mbps, which you can use for one program or multiple programs. The bitstream is MPEG2 encoded with Dolby Digital (aka AC3 or DD) audio. Note that DD is a requirement -- no other sound encodings are allowed by the spec. For reference, DVDs are MPEG2 encoded video with a variety of audio options (dolby digital is required, but DTS is on many disks as well; DTS is usually recorded at a higher bitrate, so some people prefer it).

All of that said, how much they can fit into a single "channel" depends on how much compression is used. Thus far nobody has really tried the multiple channels on one station gambit, although it is allowed. Even if it is done, odds are that you'll have a much better picture than what you get off cable (digital or analog) or either of the sat systems (although DirecTV is allegedly going to change this -- with their new sats going up later this year they'll have tons of bandwidth, and there are rumors that they'll bump picture quality back up to mid-90s levels). Realistically, both cable and sat systems broadcast their SD (standard def) programs at sub VCR quality nowadays -- roughly 240i. Yes, it really is that piss poor. On small sets you generally don't notice. On big ones you do. The digital broadcasts are cleaner (less static, no ghosting, etc) than the analog ones, but are prone to macro blocking if the bitrate is too low.

Broadcasting in 480i or 480p is generally considered "DTV" (digital TV). Broadcasting in 720p or 1080i is considered HDTV (High Def TV). True HDTV is considerably more detailed and clear than anything you'll get out of current generation DVD players (the next generation HD DVD will be another story of course).

So, when they say HD-PVR, what kind of compression are we talking about?

Whatever the broadcaster has done. The HD DirecTiVo will do no compression of its own -- it simply writes the bitstreams directly to disk.

XM Radio stream ripping

[krymsin01]

The combined service will allow XM Radio subscribers to connect their PC Radio device to the home network and then access and publish their music on their TiVo Series2 DVR.

Well, I don't know, but that sounds like making copies of songs that you don't have the right to copy... Then again, is it illegal to make tapes from the radio? Wonder what the RIAA thinks...

If it rips the songs from the stream with correct tags and the appropriate filenames, I can see how some people would find feature desirable. But, you'd have to pay the Tivo initial hardware costs, plus the montly charges for both tivo and XM radio... and considering I can do the same thing for free with a shoutcast server and streamripper, I don't think this is going to sway me over to buying a tivo...

Re:XM Radio stream ripping

[TellarHK]

The thing with the XM PCR device is that there's never a digital stream of audio going through the USB port it uses for a connection to the computer. What the XM PCR does, is simply connect to the PC for control purposes then does output using a standard headphone jack. You wouldn't need to do anything special in the slightest to get the PCR to record songs on the PC, just copy the stream info tags (which are unfortunately limited to 16 characters, at least on my SkyFi unit) and start capturing a line-in.

However, the stream is a compressed one from orbit, so you might wind up with a not-so-pure recording when you encode it again for playback on a device.

Re:Early Take

[krymsin01]

From their website:

Accessing "TiVoToGo" requires a TiVo Content Security Key and TiVo-enabled versions of the Sonic Solution (NASDAQ: SNIC) MyDVD(R) and CinePlayer(TM) applications.

Sounds like DRM to me...

Service Model ascention

[davejenkins]

Is this evidence of the ascention of the "service" model over the "product" model for business? In other words, it seems that TiVo and others are realizing there is far more revenue to be had in providing a wide range of services rather than trying to get rich at $199 a peice for the hardware and a 1-year subscription.

Certainly-- if the loss of advertising revenue because of TiVo didn`t scare the cable companies, this new angle should: it is aimed directly at their throats (providing end-services to the customer). If TiVo succeeds, then cable will be relegated to a simple provider of digital feed-- a commodity that may come via cable, dish, or TVoIP. If I worked at TimeWarnerAOLComcast, I would be worried.

Re:Service Model ascention

[MrSubtle]

I wouldn't be worried at all if I were a cable TV company. All that TiVos, home networks, and portable players do is let you watch your cable TV in more and better ways.That means more hours of TV delivered per household per day, more ad impressions per day, and more value for the feed. How could that be bad?

Because people could copy/pirate the feed? No. If somoene wants to seriously pirate a movie they can go down to the store, buy a DVD and they are home free. If they want to pirate a TV signal they can just pump it into an A/D converter and out it goes. All these stupid restrictions and DRM garbage do is keep regular folks from doing useful and legitimate things with their feeds, and it makes me pretty mad!

Because TV programmers like to control when people watch what? I know that the programmers love the idea of controlling what times people see programs, but it's not their call. I want to see thigns when I want to see them. It's not their call and it shouldn't be. They are making content, not running my life...are they?

If I were working for Comcast I would be giving away a TiVo with home networking to every customer right out of the box, and banish all DRM. A high value product like that means higher revenues. It just means looking at the market a little differently.

Change is good! Embrace it, don't fear it!

--Brian

How about a new anti-NBC feature

[bwalling]

NBC has found a nifty way to defeat Tivo - they change their shows to run from 8:00 to 8:31 (preventing you from recording an 8:30 show on another channel) or from 9:59 to 11:00 (preventing you from recording a 9:00 to 10:00 show on another channel). They debuted this on Thursday nights, but it has moved across their lineup now. Basically, I just watch less of NBC now, but if other channels start doing this, the Tivo won't work well unless I just record from one channel per night.

I'd love an update from Tivo that would allow me to side step this by setting a recording to start one minute late. Currently, you can have it start early and end late, but you can't make it start late, therefore it just won't record the program unless you do it manually.

Perhaps a new method for advertisment supported TV

[ZombieEngineer]

I am probably going to be branded a troll for this but...

A lot of TV programs are supported by advertisments (no brainer), the other option is a hideously high (relatively) subscription cost for an advert free video stream. With the latest developments with video recording it forces a change in the business model for the media industry.

If we assume that adverts are required to support our favourite programs (a necessary evil), is there a way to have our recording devices to select our prefered category of advertising?, eg: we prefer to see adds for tech gadgets over medical products over personal injury lawyers.

The selection of the order for the adverts could be done using a statistical method (show four random categories, ask the user to chose the most prefered and least prefered advert categories, repeat 20 times).

This will result in better product placement to people who are willing to consider your product. Hence a 25 year old will never see a Fixodent (denture glue) advert because his recorder will steer away from those adverts, the current alternative is the advert is simply totally ignored by the viewer and does nothing but increase the resentment of adverts.

ZombieEngineer

Wake up Tivo

[Sandman1971]

It's time for Tivo to wake up. Hey Tivo.. what about releasing your sweet products in Canada so we Canadian geeks can enjoy your fine stuff! There's a high enough demand up here! It's time to stopp sitting on your brains and release Tivo in Canada!

It's perfectly legal

[Ath]

There is a legal concept called "fair use". Just as your can use a VCR to record your favorite tv show, you have the same right to do this with radio. The US Supreme Court has continually reinforced this right of individuals over copyright restrictions.

The problem is that the media companies want to 1) put barriers up to prevent this fair use and 2) create an atmosphere where people actually believe it is illegal and that there is no fair use right.

It looks like they are succeeding for the average user. For the rest of us, the media companies can go screw themselves. I will copy my DVDs for backup, strip the encryption off so I can watch them under non-authorized media players and refuse to purchase any medium where these things aren't possible.

Re:Leaving TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Does MythTV have anything like the Home Media Option? I'm pretty excited about the DVD burning potential there.

MythTV is TiVo on steroids. It's not for newbies though so I won't even pretend to suggest your dear Aunt Ida can go install her own without spending 8 hours of your time setting it up. For those of us who like working on fun projects with Linux though it's a blast. This weekend I'll be building my new MythTV backend server with dual Hauppauge PVR 250 cards, a 3ware 8506-4lp SATA raid controller, and four 200GB Maxtor (quiet fluid dynamic bearings) SATA drives. I haven't decided whether to go with RAID-5 or RAID-0 yet so I'll have somewhere between 600GB and 800GB of space for recordings. At 2200bps and 480x480 resolution my testing with the PVR-250 has given me files about 1.2GB/hour. I may crank it up to 3300bps to get around 1.6GB/hour and deal with that for improved mpeg-2 quality.

Anyway, if you're not interesting in Linux projects stick with a TiVo. MythTV has a DVD player (and ripper) modules, MythMusic for playing mp3, ogg, flac, etc. as well as ripping CDs to ogg, mp3, or flac format, MythWeather gets weather channel maps for your area and displays the weather forecast, MythGame interfaces to MAME under Linux to play games, MythVideo provides a nice interface for playing DivX or other movie files and ties into IMDB to download cover art for movies it can recognize by title (i.e. if you have a waterboy divx file it'll search for it on IMDB and prompt you if what it found is correct, then from then on it'll associate cover art with that file and a summary and synopsis. It's quite nice. Oh yea, and remote real-time scheduling and control over your recordings (delete, browse, etc.) via mythweb. Don't take my word for it, just go to www.mythtv.org and check it out. It is by far the best open source PVR at the moment and is very mature.

DirecTiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Buyer beware.

The TiVo intergrated with DirecTV receivers cannot be used in a HMO confguration. I didn't find this out until after I signed a contract. :(

Fucking USB port isn't even powered. :(

TiVo viability?

[skidoo2]

NOTE: This is not intended to be a troll or a TiVo slam! I'm sincerely interested in /. opinion.

There are two clear (and in my opinion superior) alternatives to TiVo currently creeping into TiVo's market share:

1. In the less-features-but-easier-to-use department, cable companies (such as mine) are offering a service they're calling "TV On Demand." With my digital cable remote (and no phone connection, and no extra service charge) I can play many shows from the recent lineup at will. And pause them, rewind them, fast forward, etc. And of course my digital cable comes with a much faster, cleaner program guide user interface. Now the downside is that the guide is somewhat lacking in features, as compared to TiVo's offering. I can't search it and it doesn't have any intelligence for making suggestions or auto-scheduling.

2. Which brings me to the second alternative. I also have an ATI AIW 9600 Pro TV tuner card in a PC. This PC is hooked to my TV. I run myHTPC for the guide/scheduling/recording features, an ATI's new Easylook UI for actual TV viewing. The two work together seemlessly. This gives me *all* the features of TiVo (except season passes, big whoop), plus a whole lot more. And I don't pay a monthly service charge.

Which brings me to my question: isn't TiVo just a niche product that really should only be used by folks with an antenna feed or analog cable feed who don't have the savvy to set up a PC next to their TV? Isn't its current success due largely to clever marketing and a small window of market opportunity that they've now artificially prolonged? That is, I think there was an argument for TiVo back when it was introduced, but isn't that argument substantially weaker today?

Re:Why Pay for oil changes?

[Violet Null]

I suspect your theory is correct. Why, just today, I was thinking to myself, "I bet all of those oil-change places are out of business."

I mean, really. An oil change. Anyone can do one, for 1/4 to 1/2 the price that a Jiffy Lube or a gas station will charge you. How can those places stay in business with a model like that? It's unheard of.

Confident in my intellectual superiority, I drove to work, only to pass plenty of oil change places still doing a fine business. I was saddened and dismayed to find out that such thinking is, in fact, totally wrong. Shocking as it is, it seems people are willing to pay for convenience.

You're in "luck."

[raygundan]

DirecTV Tivos don't have to worry about any of this stuff. Currently, they're a major version behind in software, don't support HMO, and have their USB ports (which is where you'd plug a network adapter) disabled.

DirecTV is PARANOID that opening up their tivos like all the rest of them is going to result in rampant digital copying, and networks packing up and leaving.

So you're not missing out on anything-- DirecTV won't have it anyway. Just the standalone tivos.

It's very simple. Time IS money.

[HarveyBirdman]

I'm about as tech savvy as you can get. I've built designed and built motherboards from scratch. My job involves hardware designs with a dozen multimillion gate FPGA designs where I design the board AND write the VHDL for the FPGAs. I've done digital designs over 10 GHz. On the software side, I've been programming since the Apple II. I'm there, OK?

Yet I still bought a DirecTivo. I also have one of the first ReplayTV units. Why make more work for myself? Why go through the bother? The box was $149. Monthly fee? Who cares? I make a lot of money, and can deal with $5 a month. If it buys me a noccasional software upgrade and semi-well managed guide information, then fine. And season passes ARE a big whoop. They are very convenient.

Also, the DirecTivo records the original digital stream from the satellite and has dual tuners and a very nice interface. I just can't see the point to reinventing the wheel. I could probably build my own mountain bike. I have the tools. I know how to weld. But why? I'd rather do something no one has done before.

At work, if I need an amplifier in a design, I buy a prepackaged component. My job performance would be seriously questioned if I spent $4000 in man hours designing an RF amplifer when one with identical specs can be bought off the shelf for $20.

My time is worth something to me. If I have to spend more than 1 hour a month dicking around with a PC based DVR, then I've "spent" more than $5 for that month. If it took me more than 24 hours of plugging things together and debugging, well, my time spent already covers the typical lifetime of one of these gadgets before the next one with new features and more integration comes along.

And you seem to be forgetting that 98% of the population is NOT as savvy as a typical /. user. There is an enormous market for these things, as large as the VCR market. I think the integrated products like DirecTivo and now Tivo DVD recorders are going to be what really starts to light a fire.