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Should a '9200' Brand Mean a 9200 GPU?
newsdee asks: "An enormous controversy is going on at the X1000 forums over laptop parts. Some Centrino-based laptops bear a label advertising the Mobility Radeon 9200 brand, but users have found out that the laptop actually contains the 9000 chip. The list of affected machines is as follows: Compaq Presario X1000, HP Pavilion ZT3000 and the HP Compaq NX7000. ATI's and HP's response have been that the label is promising performance and not a specific chip. Yet users seem to not like this at all, apparently because most of them define 'brand' as equating to product. According to reviews, there are no differences (same scores, same clock speed) between the chips other than AGP 8x support, which the Centrino chipset does not provide. I seem to remember that this is not the first time that this kind of thing has happened in PC hardware. Can anybody share insights of whether this is right or wrong? Should I complain about my 9000 chip that delivers what the 9200 brand promises, knowing it has not been overclocked?"
Even if it performs like a 9200, if it does not have a 9200, it's False and Misleading advertising- and that is quite illegal. Even if it's a mistake, the companies guilty of this typically end up on the end of a class-action suit and pay out some small rebate or similar.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Why is it that truth in advertising doesn't seem to matter in computer hardware and software?
Companies seem to be allowed to say whatever they want and don't seem to be taken to task very often by the Federal Trade Commission. It seems that regulation of corporate activities is a thing of the past.
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
...would someone explain me why one wants a laptop with a highest performance 3D accelerated card that makes sense only in newest games - where you miss half or more the experience without a 5+1 sound system all around you, a decent quality, at least 17" monitor, a good heavyweight manipulator or at least a normal keyboard plus mouse... definitely not a laptop hardware...
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Seems like HP is notorius for this type of misleading labeling. When I was shopping for a laptop we looked at the HP Pavillion ze4430us (this laptop is crap for Linux by the way, stay far away). It was advertised as 2.0Ghz. We were told it was a 2.0Ghz, but when the box came to the register it said 1.8Ghz. We were then told it operated at the same level as a 2.0Ghz. Go figure
The big problem with this, imho, is that consumers already can't trust advertising in regards to anything. Because of this, those in the know have to rely on known quantities, like the parts of the machine and its known specs by independent (or should I say trusted by that person) reviewers.
Therefore they only way they can tell if the purchase is worth their time is by looking at the specs, which we don't expect to be lied to about - and I had thought we had the force of law on our side, truth in advertising and all that. (warning: Poorly thought out car analogy ahead) A car company can't advertise a truck as having 500 horsepower, even if they can claim that there new-fangled 300hp engine is just as good in all conditions. Or even if they could claim that by putting 500hp engine into this trucks transmission wouldn't give you anymore benefit cause the transmission can't make use of the extra 200 horsepower.
If the specs say one thing, but they give us another - then there is no point in deciding for myself what is the best product - I should say here's 1000 dollars, give me the computer.
And finally, just because _they say_ there is no difference. It doesn't mean there is no difference. They have already lied to me about one thing, why should I trust them on this? They are removing my ability to research the video cards and deciding on my own if its worth paying more $$ on a video card that gives me no benifits, maybe there are benefits that for my particular purposes that review sites like Tom's Hardware didn't take into account or didn't even think about. Maybe they are right and there is no difference - but then don't lie to me about it!
"I'm a Genius!"*
*Not an actual Genius
I was curious about this fine print issue, and I came up with this. I thought marketing hype was usually done on the main page for the laptop with some for of words about the product, not specifications. If you look at the specifications for the HP Pavilion ZT3001US, it says ATI Mobility Radeon 9200. It is pretty simple, if that is not what you got, but that is what was specified, then they should make it "right". I think that this is a bait and switch, they tell you that you are buying one thing and then sell you another under the assumption that you will never look under the hood, cause most people that buy a pavillion will never look at what the chipsets are. It isn't fair no matter what is being sold. Specifications are not marketing hype, they are the information of the machine. I also took the liberty of looking up the quickspecs for the HP Compaq NX7000, and the and the Compaq Presario X1000. The presario has 3 different options, and I don't think a 7500 chipset is the same as a 9200. On the other side of the coin, it is possible to get an older version of the laptop that was still in stock. They do do that quite often, and then improve the equipment as time goes on. Since I don't look at consumer based laptops, I am unsure as to how long these have been on the markent
WHY do they have a problem with labeling the equipment CORRECTLY?
WHY even play this kind of game when you should KNOW that you'll annoy some of your customers with it?
IMHO this really depends in what's covered by a brand. If it's just a product (a commodity), then there has been misdirection. But not if there's more than that.
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This is what tipped everybody at first:
T1 - The MR9000 and MR9200 present different Chip IDs to the system. The ones in the HP/C laptops are the same as the MR9000.
T2 - some users opened their laptops and found a MR 9000 chip on the graphics card.
ATI-related facts:
A1 - There are two distinct GPU chips.
A1.1 - The MR9000 has a rv250 core.
A1.2 - The MR9200 has a rv280 core.
A1.3 - Both chips have same specifications except for AGP 8x.
A1.4 - AGP 8x is actually an optional feature for the 9200 (small print in ATI's product comparison matrix).
A1.5 - a graphics card is made putting together these GPU chips with more hardware.
A2 - There is apparently a difference between the "Mobility Radeon 9200 brand" and the actual chip (which is only a part of the brand, according to ATI and HP).
A3 - The companies don't seem to be denying that there is a 9000 chip inside.
A4 - ATI's product portfolio quotes that the 9200 is slightly faster than the 9000 (10x vs. 9x, when compared to the slowest Mobility Radeon [1x]).
A5 - Apparently (reviews) the only difference between cores is that the 280 is cheaper to manufacture, everything else being equal.
A6 - Most claims on the web regarding the 9200 as a better product are copies from a press release available around March 13th 2003. All of these do not contain benchmarks. The reviews that have benchmarks show no difference in performance.
A7 - ATI's disclaimer on their terms of sales:
"Performance tests and ratings of ATI products as presented on this Site are measured using specific computer systems and/or components and reflect the approximate performance of ATI products as measured by those tests. Any difference in system hardware or software design or configuration may affect actual performance. Buyers should consult other sources of information to evaluate the performance of systems or components they are considering purchasing."
HP-related facts:
H1 - HP's Terms of sale
"Some newly manufactured HP Products may contain and HP Support may use remanufactured parts which are equivalent to new in performance."
H2 - They also seem to acknoledge there's a 9000 inside (see other post for their official response).
Software-related facts:
S1 - HP/C is using the same drivers for the "9200" as with the MR9000 with just a
S2 - Most users' (non-review) benchmarks show no performance difference of a 9200 over a 9000 clocked at the same speed. The X1000 have higher Futuremark.com scores than every other latpop though, but that's probably because of the hardware environment, not the chip itself.
The two crowds on the forums divided by this issue have two opposing views of brand: one claim it is only a physical product (the chip) regardless of everything else, so they claim misdirection. The other side claims that the brand entails more than just the chip and so the actual part is irrelevant. It all depends on a single definition... Google defines brand as "the name of a product or service".
The ENIAC Demo Competition
This colloquy reminds me of the Clinton impeachment scandal:
Democrats: What's the big deal? He lied about something that has no bearing on the performance of his duties.
Republicans: That's not the point; he lied.
Shout it from the Roof tops that Its the worst Laptop you have ever seen... Make comments till your blue in the face about how slow it is for being a 9200! Do everything you can to get Review sites to look over the fact its Just called a 9200 but has a 9000 series chip in it.. Make it look unattractive as a purchase option.. Do everything you can... They only way to prevent Marketing "Guru's" from misleading the public is to Make thier misleading marketing practices fall flat on its face. This is the only way Marketers will listen... They only use Tried tested and True Methods to sell thier products... Its Rare they ever venture out on a new limb.. and if its a bad limb... Break it off and shove it down their throat untill it has a negitive impact on their paychecks. This is the only way they will listen.... Taking them to court only Drives up the costs of products and they usually slink away somewhat unscathed anyway.
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
--Agreed. First there was the outsourcing article on Thu, and now this. HP lost my business back when my parents bought a 500MHz "desktop" system from them - POS.
--Now if they had chosen in their initial response to say something like, "we're incredibly sorry, some intern mistyped the number and it accidentally got into the ad" that MIGHT give them some grace. But they didn't, and now the whole world knows they suck that much more.
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== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??