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Oracle Embraces Mozilla
kiggs writes "According to this article from eWeek, Oracle Corp. is ready to extend its 'Linux Everywhere' campaign to client systems. At next week's LinuxWorld in New York, Oracle will announce that it will enable the Mozilla open-source Web browser to run Oracle applications in the coming year.
Dave Dargo, vice president of Oracle's Linux Program Office and the Performance Engineering team within its Platform Technologies Division, says that Oracle will look to expand its 1.5-year-old Linux support program by supporting Linux not just as a server but as a client."
What is wrong with IE? Most used, most reliable, fastest, and most innovotive browser around.
Don't bother with these other strange browsers, we don't need them, and don't waste YOUR time.
IF it wasnt for MS, we wouldn't be using the web today, because PCs would still be very difficult to use and there would be no software.
Thank you bill Gates, we ALL owe you a beer.
It should have had worked since beginning (unless there's some catastrophic bug in mozilla). A web page that requires some specific browser is hopelessly broken by my definition.
Shouldn't supporting Mozilla be obvious? Web applications should adhere to standards, if they don't, well, they are crappy web applications in the first place. I don't consider this "generous", rather than just fixing their broken applications to work like they should have worked in the first place.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
I trust Oracle about as much as I trust Microsoft. Let's hope they don't set their sights on acquisition, because their algorithm goes "embrace-acquire-mediocrify-priceincrease"
Will this have any impact on Firebird, which is the sweetest browser I ever did use?
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
From the Article:
It is widely believed that another primary motivation behind Oracle's embrace of Linux is to push archrival Microsoft Corp. out of its position of power. In pursuit of that goal, Oracle will enable its customers to opt for Mozilla over Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser, just as they have enabled customers to opt out of Microsoft operating systems in favor of Linux.
So they're backing free software, something laughed at by most corporate bodies up until this time, to beat Bill. Capitalists using communists to fight fascists. Neat!
Oracle is the MS of the database world. Clueless managers insist on using it because they're the biggest DB company, and us geeks are the ones who have to live with the consequences.
Case in point, my company's got to use Oracle 9i/9iAS for a project, and we must have spent weeks just getting the thing to install properly. We upgraded our developers machines to XP last week, and it won't even install on clean machines.
Don't get me started on their idea of supporting open standards. JAZN (their implementation of JAAS) anyone?
When you want to do some clever stuff, you do not want to restrict yourself to HTML so you do not necessaraly want to use *any* browser. With the Mozilla technology they have a platform that has implementations on many platforms.
So I think they get it and it is less browser technology than presentation technology that they find in Mozilla
Oh good fucking lord. Would you stop with the shit already? I use KDE, and I use Mozilla. Not only is Mozilla cross platform, but it runs on Gnome and KDE, which means that it will work on SUN Java Desktop. That right there is a big reason to use Mozilla.
KHTML applications are great, if you can silence the fanboyisms. In short, you're not coding it, so shut the fuck up!
I work there and would bet it will be a long time before this works as planned. Way too many internal sights require IE to work at all. We are still at a point where you can NOT have a purely Linux desktop and still get your daily work completed.
I would not say Oracle Apps works on standards like the poster above was explaining either - it requires a Java plugin (very similar to - and based on Sun's Java Plugin) called JInitiator. JInitiator has to be loaded and used by the browser so it it not like any browser can be a client... unless Jinit is ported to the platform and plugin architecture.
It will be a happy day when we can actually USE Linux on the desktop at work though.
Time for you karma whores: could you tell me (and the unwashed masses lingering around here) what 'oracle applications' we'd want to run from our Moz? What do I miss if I have never ever thought on doing so?
The fact that Jinitiator (Oracle's JVM) has only worked for windows has been the last reason my company hasn't been able to switch to linux.
All of our Novell stuff now has Linux ports, and OpenOffice suits most of us just fine. Hopefully this is the last piece of the puzzle.
It would also be really cool if the apps could run through LTSP.
The article doesn't specifically name a Linux Jinitiator, but I would be more than happy if they got the apps to run using a more recent Sun JVM for Mozilla.
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
I guess I don't like the fact that they just work on one distribution and getting it to work elsewhere is a bit of a pain sometimes.
Though last time I ran the newest oracle application server on linux (based on Apache), it seemed they went out of their way to make it a daunting task. There are about 30 other things that start up with the app server and apache.
I guess I think of it as simple - client attaches to apache, apache module connects to oracle, but they are going gung-ho on having all the java stuff, and god knows what else built in. Way to much complexity and it caused nothing but trouble...actually had to back down a release.
It's saturday morning and I'm just ranting, but it seems to me that outside of the database server, which they do well, they do a terrible job of everything else.
Oracle Enterprise Manager is a good example. Used to ba an app that would connect to the database, let you manage it, etc... Now it's this huge Java thing, requires it's own database just to manage other databases, etc... and doesn't seem to work half the time.
I guess I've just had terrible luck with anything java based on Linux (or windows for that matter) - well, anything that goes beyond a simple app.
A database is a database, which should have nothing to do with user interaction. A web browser is at the presentation level, which is all about user interaction and should have nothing to do with the database.
If Oracle has been writing software that entangles database code with the presentation level, then they are mixing layers and producing appallingly unmaintainable code, and should stop doing that no later than immediately. On the other hand, if they are writing code that produces HTTP/HTML content in the presentation layer, then it doesn't matter which web browser is used to view it.
So why would anyone write software that is specifically "for Mozilla", especially a database vendor? They should just adhere to the HTTP/HTML standards in the presentation layer, so that anyone using a standards-compliant browser can view their content.
Of course, we are talking about Oracle, who has produced PL/SQL packages for generating HTML right out of the database, insist on using their own, outdated JRE's, and perhaps have generated M$-dependent web content. So maybe Oracle is just trying to tell us that they will start doing a couple of things a little bit less stupidly.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
It works on many other operating systems too, including the proprietary Windows. But it is still a success for Linux and open source in general, because any technology that does not allow Microsoft to lock in its customers is a win for freedom, and a loss for Microsoft. Microsoft values one thing more than money, that is the guarantee of making more money (marketshare strangehold). So as Linux and other open source operating systems gains widespread acceptance not just in the server space but with clients too, Microsoft loses out. Microsoft isn't left out or locked out, it is just forced to play on an level playing field.
So victory for open source is not the complete desctruction of the towers of Barad-dur in Redmond, but the creation of a fair and competitive server and desktop market and the neutralization of Microsoft's monopoly power. Once we have that, we have already won. Marketshare numbers will be meaningless, since you are not forced to adopt the platform with the highest market share to get the software solutions that you need.
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
There's actually a shred of wisdom in the poster's wit. If it weren't for a single company dominating PC software, there would be a lot less motivation to find an open source alternatives. Without Microsoft, the choice was (and probably still would be) between several crappy closed source software venders. It is because of MS's predatory and evil ways the Linux has become the alternative of choice. And maybe Bill will drown in all that free beer!
all the gloom and doom about what would happen to the "orphaned" Mozilla browser now that AOL was dropping it.
This is an extremely smart move on Oracles behalf, imho.
One would think that moving to service orientation would be the way to go, with OSS critical mass just around the corner.
But this proves that Oracle is thinking further, where OSes are only a commodity and clients networking capabilites count.
By extending Mozilla with their stuff they're adding a feature to Oracle that others don't have (yet), despite the fact that Oracle DB probably has had these features for years. Clients for free, server service capable software for good ol' cash. This move will do two things for Oracle: It will establish their image as early adapters and full supporters of OSS *and* it will let them maintain their standard business model a little longer: selling bizarely priced DBs and other software stuff.
Very smart indeed.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I knew that Mozilla overbloated (kitchen sink anyone?), but including Oracle DB is a bit overkill I think...
Slashdot - free anti-Microsoft propaganda 24/7
I think there's something wrong with your arguement. Just because KDE "won the desktop war" doesn't mean people should use its default browser. That's EXACTLY like saying Microsoft is winning the os war thus you should use Internet Explorer.
Mozilla is a fine, cross-platform browser which fits Oracle's needs. Right now, cross-platform applications are going to be necessary to introduce to Windows users so that when they are ready to switch, their anxieties can be alleaved by pointing out the same applications are available over here.
And maybe Bill will drown in all that free beer!
<rms>No, no, you're missing the point. It's about free speech, not free beer. Why can't you stupid GNU/Linux people ever understand that? Half the time you don't even put the GNU before Linux. Just you wait, in only ten years HURD will be an almost-usable kernel and you'll see. YOU'LL SEE!!</rms>
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
> Oracle embraces Mozilla
Mozilla was a natural choice for Oracle, as both of them are ruthless, flesh-eating predators, who just trample over the weak and possess a tiny brain.
Oracle has a complete end-to-end ERP/CRM application called Applicaitons 11i which uses a combination of java applets (delivered through Forms Server 6i) JSP's (delivered through apache) etc. The problem is that some of their HTML code makes windows IE only calls (even though they officially support the Mac running IE) using the object tag instead of applet tags, etc. Also, they have a ton of other web apps (Discoverer, their iAS application server and portal server, etc.) all with IE only stuff in them.
-- Chris Martin, System Administrator
We'll have to wait and see what happens. Right now, I would wager to say that they are evil, but useful. Unfortunately, I think that's how they see Linux as well.
Oracle does support KHTML.
The marketroids folks might not know it, but the fact is that it just plains work. At least with Apple's Safari, wich is KHTML.
(Safari, BTW, is a dedicated-to target on Mac OS X, at least for the OCS product line).
But no. It looks like they're just adhering to web standards for their vertical app. Which I appreciate, don't get me wrong, but they might as well have been saying they were embracing Opera.
This is the best saturday EVER!!!! Woohooo!
1;
Due to netscape and mozilla being (for the most part) plug-in compatible, I've been using Oracle Apps via Mozilla (and Phoenix/Firebird) for at least 3-4 years now.
.dll into the Mozilla plugins folder. Restart Mozilla and get to work... this may require a pre-existing netscape installation, not too sure. Everywhere I've worked pre-installed netscape for their users. If you have to go that route, it's not too hard to uninstall netscape once you have Jinitiator and Mozilla/Firebird playing nice with each other.
All you have to do is download oajinit.exe (yes, this is windows) and install it. Then, you need to find the dll that's installed (the name contains the version number of Jinitiator, but I'm not at work so I can't say for sure what it is) and drop the
Now, I'd love to see more linux support as a client machine. The only reason I have to use windows at work is the lack of a supported solution to running oracle apps client from linux. The developer apps are pretty crappy compared to the windows ports, but they do work.
Not only do I play an Oracle apps developer on TV, I am one in real life, too!
Good, though I would rather hear they're modifying Oracle to work properly under Mozilla than that they're modifying Mozilla to work properly with Oracle.
Oracle had their own browser back in the mid 90's when the IE and Netscape battle was heating up. What ever happened to the Oracle Power Browser?
Oracle is the MS of the database world. Clueless managers insist on using it because they're the biggest DB company, and us geeks are the ones who have to live with the consequences.
Although I don't like the company and it's hideous culture, I actually rather like the Oracle RDBMS It's powerful, feature-ful, and possible to tune to a fare-thee-well. It is very easy to screw up if you don't know what you're doing, so start easily. Installing on Windows is a snap; Unix installers have always been crap; I guess they figure Unix folks don't need as much handholding. I don't know why you had problems with XP, I've never had a problem.
You really can't compare MS and Oracle from an engineering standpoint. MS is about making getting into the product easy and regretting it later. Oracle is rougher on the novice but solves a lot of tough problems (at a price) that come up in large, bet the company kind of projects. Oracle is not a "hey kids lets put on a show" kind of product, which is not to denigrate systems like MySQL which are better suited for projects in that kind of niche and remarkably flexible given that kind of easy startup. If you need a database to handle the hit counter in your personal web page, Oracle's not for you. In Oracle's niche a few weeks of startup time hardly matter at all, given downstream failover capabilities, scalability, availability, and tunability. Generally speaking Oracle's forte is the kinds of projects where you hire a lead DBA with a decade or more of serious DBA experience, and happily pay the kind of salary that commands. Unfortunately, Oracle doesn't give a shit about newbies, which may not be wise in the long run given MS's focus on making things feel nice and cozy for them. Everyone starts out as a newbie, and MS knows the long term value of newbie mindshare.
One way that Oracle is like MS is that they want to completely own the database market the way MS wants to completely own the OS market. This is hardly surprising, since they want to make lots money. However, monoculture in database management systems would be even worse than in operating system. There is a huge universe of database applications out there, and a variety of products fit well into various spaces. There are even places for products a database professional would consider toys: FileMaker and yes, MS Access.
Grossly simplifying the picture, you can picture a scale with personal databases in the MS Access space on the left, massive enterprise-wide and megadatabses on the right, and workgroup, special purpose databases with varying degrees of transaction and record volume falling various points in the middle. Filemaker and Access are single points on the far left. MySQL, Postgres, FireBird, and similar databases extend from the far left to left of center. Oracle is useful from the middle of the scale to the far right.
It's a gross simplification, of course, because there isn't a single dimension along which you can measure a database project's scale, but several: record volume, update volme, query volume, query complexity, availability requirements, schema complexity etc. But dial up each of these dimensions to the max, and Oracle's probably a no-brainer. Keep the dials all near the minimum, and Oracle's a waste. Twist them into various patterns, and you really have to know your database products to decide whether Oracle is the best choice.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Where does Oracle fit into the Evil vs. Not Evil scale?
It's White Evil as opposed to the Black Evil of SCO and Microsoft.
Mozilla stomps KHTML/Konq for usage share. Mozilla and Mozilla based browsers have about a 68% share compared to KHTML.
Also, wait about a year and see how KDE usage drops considerably in numbers compared to Gnome, or how Gnome usage surges past KDE. Why? Because Novell purchased Ximian's XD2 which is Gnome based and Novell WILL leverage that investment. Evolution is critical for an Enterprise roll-out, since many Enterpriese use MS Exchange. KDE has nothing that can connect and use and MS Exchange server, while Novell/Ximian Evolution with Novell/Ximian Connector works great. And no, Enterprises are not going to be doing a large scale replacement of MS Exchange for KGroupware. With Novell buying SuSE, you may see some using Novell/SuSE MS Exchange replacement, again with is integragted and supported by Evolution.
Also, Sun's Linux desktop uses GNome and Solairs 9 now uses Gnome as well. Sun also just did that 1,000,000 Linux desktop deal with China, that will be a LOT of new Gnome desktops out there.
One other point, KHTML is no where near as standards compliant and ready for the web as Mozilla is. I have been to tons of sites that just don't work with KHTML/Konq that work fine with Moz. I am a developer for a fortune 500, we have a lot of Oracle and People Soft Enterprise apps that are now web enabled. Most of them work perfect with Moz 1.5/1.6 and puke with KHTML, though as this topics suggest, there are still some that require IE only : (
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Microsoft has nothing to do with motivating open source.
Microsoft has nothing to do with motivating open source.
That's a pretty naive statement. Sure GNU and free software was around, but how many people and companies now support OSS because of their disdain toward MS? The new licensing scheme released by MS is pushing even more people into the OSS camp and thus motivating them.
I believe it is a yin and yang type of thing. Without the single big closed source company driving people away, OSS may never have gotten the critical mass of users that it has today.
actually, it was the unix wars that sprung forth the opensource movement, and if it werent microsoft, it would be IBM or Apple.
and people would still like free stuff.
This is like saying we should be glad about 9/11 as it led to better airline security. Sheesh.
they can start by making a cros platform xforms extension for mozilla, roaming profiles, intergrate their implimentation of jabber into mozilla as a extension.
instantly mozilla would be ready for business in a serious way versus ie.
oracle would have a full featured desktop client.
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