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Explaining the Mars Photo Colorization

TaddyPorter writes "I've seen stories going around the 'net in regards to NASA editing photos of mars. Mainly, the sundial used for calibration showed different colors than the dial on mars. While a wide range of explanations were taking shape, the Pancam Payload Element Lead for the mission, Jim Bell of Cornell University, was kind of enough to explain the color differences."

210 comments

  1. Dont trust this man, he's part of the conspiracy!! by Flounder · · Score: 4, Funny
    They're really colorizing the pictures from Mars to hide the proof of aliens!!

    Actually, now it makes alot of sense. But that still won't stop the conspiracy kooks from claiming otherwise.

    --

    No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova

  2. Secret NASA photos. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Funny


    Supposedly they have a picture of Martians humping Beagle2, but they edited it to look like a plain stewn with rocks.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:Secret NASA photos. by Quixote · · Score: 2, Funny
      You mean, this picture ?

  3. If blue=pink, then green=?? by earplug · · Score: 5, Funny

    If blue appears pink on Mars, what is the real color of the little green guys?

    1. Re:If blue=pink, then green=?? by jumbo008 · · Score: 3, Funny

      If blue appears pink on Mars, what is the real color of the little green guys?

      It's gotta be yellow, why else won't the little bastards show themselves?

    2. Re:If blue=pink, then green=?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cool thing about the internet is that nobody can tell you're canadian, eh?

    3. Re:If blue=pink, then green=?? by tgd · · Score: 1

      They're blue in real life.

      CBS made the same mistake with the elves in the Rudolph animated special from 40 years ago.

      Green elves were really blue elves so green martians must really be blue martians, right?

    4. Re:If blue=pink, then green=?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cool thing about the internet is that nobody can tell you're canadian, eh?

      Let's have some beer and play some hockey, eh?

    5. Re:If blue=pink, then green=?? by michajoe · · Score: 1

      Well, RTFA, it's all a matter of which filter you use ;-)

      Which color do you want your Martians today?

  4. Filters vs Bayer by cflorio · · Score: 5, Informative
    Of Course the colors don't look life like. They are taking multiple exposures with different filters for the colors.

    They could have used a Foveon Sensor if they didn't want Bayer interpolation.

    1. Re:Filters vs Bayer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Look, all I want to know is what my eye would see if I were standing on Mars. Can't someone just cut through all this BS "science" and tell me that?

    2. Re:Filters vs Bayer by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 2, Funny

      They could have, by why would they? If you want accurate amd controllable spectral sensitiviy then you need and imager with known response and (preferably dichroic) filters with known passbands. A monochromatic, specially doped sensor with excellent S/N ratio and carefully measured characteristics would seem appropriate for a scientific imager.

      Has it ever occured to you that you own personal current wet dream tech fantasy might have fuck-all to do with NASA's scientific requirements?

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    3. Re:Filters vs Bayer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, all I want to know is what my eye would see if I were standing on Mars.

      The inside of your helmet.

    4. Re:Filters vs Bayer by fearlessfreddy · · Score: 1

      I almost modded the parent down but decided to post instead, because I think that will be more effective in dispelling this nonsense.

      Yes, Spirit places filters in front of the lens to capture different colors. But consumer cameras use filters too, with the difference that the filters are permanently attached to the CCD.

      Fovean CCDs use a clever trick to stack Red, Green, and Blue sensitive sensors on top of each other, which basically gives it greater pixel density than a camera that uses a single layer, Bayer pattern of sensors. But the fovean is still basically using 3 fixed color filters.

      Spirit, on the other hand, has 8 different filters. This gives it tremendous flexibility. Yes, it can only use one filter per exposure, but considering it is taking pictures of rocks and not dancing martians, it can use multiple exposures without worrying about the subject changing.

      Also, Spirit (as hinted by the article) presumably sends exposure calibration info with each filter exposure. I mean, any EXIF capable consumer digital camera records exposure info, so let's assume for the sake of argument that this multi-million dollar imaging system has a similar, if not greater capability in that regard.

      Assuming the illumination does not change between exposures, Nasa can use the exposure information to precisely calibrate the multiple exposures to the same levels before compositing.

      Furthermore, in photos that contain the sun dial, Nasa can use the color chips and mirror to accurately estimate the color of the illumination. Combining this with multiple exposure using different filters, Nasa can accurately estimate the reflectance of the subject. Given the reflectances, Nasa could reconstruct an image in any color-space under any kind of illumination.

      In summary, Spirit has all the tools it needs to capture images that could be reconstructed to show what a human eye would see on the surface of mars, or what a chunk of mars brought back to earth would look like to a human eye in earth's daylight.

      But Nasa is mostly interested in capturing images that reveal the most information about the martian surface, and it is not hard to belive that those images might not be the same as what a human eye would perceive.

    5. Re:Filters vs Bayer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as the article says, these pictures don't exhibit a bayer pattern, they deal with color by putting filters in front of a black and white camera, combining 3 pictures to get color.

    6. Re:Filters vs Bayer by Tukla · · Score: 1

      A shrinking, black tunnel as you died of asphyxiation.

    7. Re:Filters vs Bayer by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      According to Total Recal, first you'll see everything in a red tint from your own blood, then your head explodes. At least when you cut out the BS science.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  5. Re:Dont trust this man, he's part of the conspirac by Yo+Grark · · Score: 4, Funny

    I don't trust him.

    His website was taken down immediatly after slashdot posted this.

    His "truth" couldn't stand up to the slashdoting scrutiny!

    Yo Grark

    --
    Canadian Bred with American Buttering
  6. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmm...

    Monday morning. Looks like everyone on the east coast went to their desks and got straight to work. I know I'm working hard now.

  7. Who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    I mean, I'm color blind.

  8. In conclusion: by CaptainAlbert · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From end of article (yes, I skipped straight there... :))

    There is simply no point in adding on their site "caution these images are not 100% precisely actual colors" when no digital image is really 'actual colors'.

    Quite. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that NASA expected most of the people who were scrutinising these pictures to have some experience with astronomical imaging, where almost nothing is "true" colour in that sense.

    Personally, I'm in favour of as much rebalancing as it takes to make the images pretty. If they don't make full use of my eye's ability to perceive them, then what was the point of spending all that money obtaining them in the first place? So long as the raw originals are available too, who cares?

    --
    These sigs are more interesting tha
    1. Re:In conclusion: by Yo+Grark · · Score: 0, Insightful

      That's just it then isn't it?

      Most people DON'T know that they are colorization.

      By your same logic, subliminal messages in movies should be allowed as long as they show you the ads on their website.

      Sorry, but I like disclaimers. .....wait....Crap, by my definition I also like EULA's. Someone HELP ME!

      Yo Grark

      --
      Canadian Bred with American Buttering
    2. Re:In conclusion: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      By your same logic, subliminal messages in movies should be allowed

      Huh? Why wouldn't they be allowed?

      They don't work.

    3. Re:In conclusion: by AllUsernamesAreGone · · Score: 0, Troll

      Someone HELP ME!

      You're beyond help.

    4. Re:In conclusion: by Kombat · · Score: 3, Informative

      By your same logic, subliminal messages in movies should be allowed

      Subliminal messages in movies are allowed. There's no law against it.

      The only reasons they don't do it is because a) it doesn't work, and b) when audiences find out the theater is trying to brainwash them, they tend to stop going to movies. Negative publicity, you know.

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    5. Re:In conclusion: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      This just in: most of the images from Hubble are also colorized, apparently because some people took offense to not being able to see in the infrared. Additionally there appears to be a hint of the same fiasco at many radio telescopes.

    6. Re:In conclusion: by Raagshinnah · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      subliminal messages? I have [SMOKE] no id[SMOKE]ea what you're[SMOKE] talking about[SMOKE]

    7. Re:In conclusion: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, you're far too calm and well-reasoned to post on /.

      Please restrict further posts to inanities, non-sequiturs, and blaming everything on the liberals.

    8. Re:In conclusion: by Joey7F · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      "Please restrict further posts to inanities, non-sequiturs, and blaming everything on the liberals."

      Yeah liberals like G.W Bush. What the hell are you talking about? Everything gets blamed on Conservatives not Liberals.

      --Joey

    9. Re:In conclusion: by iantri · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually (and I don't have an exact link to the regulation) American regulations by the FCC require any message to be at least 2 frames. French regulations are appearantly tougher.

      http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/037.html

    10. Re:In conclusion: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, everything gets blamed on whatever the opposing party of the person in question is. Liberals, Conservatives, I wish both of your little clubs would just grow up and start thinking for themselves.

  9. Digicams and colors by mwburden · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have a Sonly Clie' PDA with a digicam built in, and it can be used to demonstrate how digicams "see" color differently, especially in the near-infrared range.

    If you go into the camera application and aim the Clie' at an infrared remote control (like a TV or stereo remote), and hit one of the buttons on the remote, the PDA camera will pick up the infrared and actually display it visibly!

    1. Re:Digicams and colors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow your right! I just got out my camera and pointed a remote at it. Its an eeire pink glow! It kind of freaked me out when I seen it!

    2. Re:Digicams and colors by void+warranty() · · Score: 1

      My T610 sees in infrared too. The thing that surprised me is that the infrared lightsource appeared as white with a slight blue tint. I had assumed the red filter would be more sensitive to IR. Cheap filters I guess.

    3. Re:Digicams and colors by TiggsPanther · · Score: 1

      My webcam always shows up infrared as a blue-white glow around the emitter. Kind of amusing.

      --
      Tiggs
      "120 chars should be enough for everyone..."
    4. Re:Digicams and colors by mks113 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      All CCDs are particularly sensitive in the IR range.
      Video Cameras and digital cameras have to filter out this sensitivity to get true colour.

      Sony uses this IR sensitivity in their "Nightshot" feature on vidcams. Instead of filtering out the IR component, they use it. It throws off the colour rendition but uses ambient and generated IR to show stuff at night.

      I was at a lodge in Kenya just after dusk, and was told that there was a leopard in at a baited tree across the river. It was too dark for me to make it out, so I set up my camera on a tripod, and quickly had a crowd around the LCD watching a very clear picture of the leopard!

      And I discovered years ago that a CCD vidcam will show the light from a remote. I've used it quite a few times to verify that a remote is actually working.

    5. Re:Digicams and colors by danamania · · Score: 1

      My Canon A70 picks up the hotplate on a stove, which appears red to my eye, as a bluish purple

    6. Re:Digicams and colors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Kenya to see a Leopard?

      MAN! Where is the Geek/Nerd in you? Let me tell you what I use the nightvision for.

      Ahme. If you use the nightvison on women in broad daylight, you get to see through their clothes! Yes, it's true!! Sony tried to put extra filters to hide it, but the older cams still does it and you can fix any of the newer ones to do it too!! :)

    7. Re:Digicams and colors by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > I was at a lodge in Kenya just after dusk, and was told that there was a leopard in at a baited tree across the river. It was too dark for me to make it out, so I set up my camera on a tripod, and quickly had a crowd around the LCD watching a very clear picture of the leopard!

      And at the hospital, while they were stitching me back together, I told them "God as my witness, I had no idea leopards could see in the infrared."

    8. Re:Digicams and colors by pla · · Score: 1, Insightful

      All CCDs are particularly sensitive in the IR range.

      True, and the one on the Spirit Rover goes up to appoximately 1100nm.

      However, that does NOT excuse the so-called "color" photos from NASA, nor does the excuse presented in the linked text. Why?

      Simple reason - As the link mentions, the Spirit Rover sees the world through two identical cameras, with a set of 14 (16 with 2 pairs overlapping) narrow bandpass (around 20nm wide) color filters.

      Now, it may well hold true, as per the link, that the blue paint chip looks bright at 750nm. However, WHY would they use L2 (750nm) to simulate human red vision (650nm), when they have a much closer match at L3 (670nm)? Even excusing them from doing a full spectral distribution between the seven (#8 only helps for the sun) left filters mapped onto the human visual response, they could get FAR better results just by not using L2.

      And remember, despite appearances to the contrary, we do deal with "rocket scientists" here. People who should know that 670 lies closer to 650 than 750 does.

      So for those who consider this a frivolous complaint by the foil-beanie-wearers, consider the utter simplicity of this so-called "problem", as well as the ease of an imperfect-but-damn-close fix (ie, use L3 rather than L2)... And suddenly it all looks a lot more strange, that a huge team of engineers failed what amounts to a 2nd-grade math test, yet successfully put a lander on a distant planet.

      Furthermore, the color problem only counts as one of three major questionable points on NASA's image manipulation... If you compare the first released panorama from NASA with the version at the link below, you'll notice not only the color as wrong, but that NASA has deliberately blurred the image. Yes, deliberately - Using the wrong color channel for red doesn't account for the drastic reduction in effective resolution seen between NASA's version and the same thing generated by others from using L2, L5, and L6 (the SAME filters, still with the bad choice of L2, that NASA said they used). NASA officially claimed the haze and low visibility resulted from dust hanging in the air, yet the same image produced externally to them shows a beautiful clear sky with great visibility and no "dusty" effect.

      And, I mentioned three problems, not two - The last, I consider worse than any number of failures, up to and including completely losing a mission. To cover up the "bad" colors, they CROPPED OUT THE COLOR CALIBRATION TARGET in all subsequent image releases. Yes, you read that right - Check out their web page... Early pictures they released include it (showing the wrong colors for blue and green), while the version currently on the JPL website have it strangely cut out of the picture. Sorry, but hiding the flaws in an experiment doesn't fly well in the scientific community. If they screwed up initially, they had every chance to fix it and say "oops", with no one making more than an amused comment. But instead, they chose to cover something up - Whether they did so to hide their initial error, or to hide something larger (such as water, see below), I'll leave to the beanie crowd to debate.


      For those who want to see the "correct" colors, check out Keith Laney's page, which includes quite a few stunningly nice pictures.

      And for those who wonder about that strange substance the Rover landed it - In full, correct color, it looks glaringly obvious that it landed in mud (yes, mud, a mixture of dirt and water).

    9. Re:Digicams and colors by Keebler71 · · Score: 3, Funny
      Lepoards? Dude, don't you know they can be used to see through womens' clothes?

      Leopards.... I'd expect more from a /. user....

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
  10. Conspiracy theorists by Eric+S+Rayrnond · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The bizarre claims of conspiracy theorists just go on and on. If you go to their websites you can read more than any brain can handle. I have read literally dozens of things that ``prove'' the moon landings were faked, for example, and each one is rather easily shown to be wrong by anyone with experience in such things.

    I think the problem here is twofold: we tend to want to believe (or at least listen to) conspiracy theories, particularly to do with space. Also, the evidence is presented in such a way that, if you are unfamiliar with the odd nature of the vacuum of space and of space travel, it sounds reasonable.

    --
    >>esr>>
    1. Re:Conspiracy theorists by Simon+Hibbs · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >I have read literally dozens of things that ``prove'' the moon landings were faked, for
      >example, and each one is rather easily shown to be wrong by anyone with experience in such things.

      My favourites are the 'pictures of alien moon bases'. Many of these prove to be blowups of astronomical JPG files. The compression algorithm used in the JPG format introduces artificial distortions in the details of images, so it's not surprising they find all sorts of weird looking shapes when they magnify the pictures.

      Simon Hibbs

    2. Re:Conspiracy theorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dont discount them so quickly! I was listening to Art Bell the other night, and Art had Richard C. Hoagland on as his guest.

      For those of you that don't know, Richard C. Hoagland was once the "science advisor" to Walter Kronkite! He is extremely credible.

      Well, on his site, Enterprise Mission, he does some detailed analysis of the photos and makes a very compelling case that there are actual pieces of machinery visible in the photos that Spirit's Pan Cam has sent back.

      The unwillingness of the /. community to accept extreme possibilities despite overwhelming evidence is something I'll never understand. Open your mind, guys.

    3. Re:Conspiracy theorists by Mononoke · · Score: 1
      If you go to their websites you can read more than any brain can handle.
      That's what they want you to think.
      --
      NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
    4. Re:Conspiracy theorists by fredrikj · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, if you zoom in even further, you'll find that everything is made up of tiny squares of different colors. The odd thing about it is that they are COMPLETELY square, as if the moon was built from Lego bricks or something. Clearly there is something going on here.

    5. Re:Conspiracy theorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was listening to Art Bell the other night...

      Wow, you must measure your nights in years. Art Bell left the airwaves some time ago.

    6. Re:Conspiracy theorists by Apiakun · · Score: 1

      He's back to doing 2 nights a week.

    7. Re:Conspiracy theorists by aminorex · · Score: 0, Troll


      The complaint is that NASA is obviously and
      demonstrably misinforming the public.
      Similarly, sites which advocate a theory that
      the moon landings were a hoax are obviously
      and demonstrably misinforming the public.
      NASA is in the same class, therefore, as the
      people you describe as "conspiracy theorists".

      Of course the use of that term is enough to
      completely destroy credibility, so I'm not
      sure why I bother to point out the gross lapses
      in logic.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    8. Re:Conspiracy theorists by pla · · Score: 1

      My favourites are the 'pictures of alien moon bases'. Many of these prove to be blowups of astronomical JPG files. The compression algorithm used in the JPG format introduces artificial distortions in the details of images

      By all means, explain what compression artifact in the JPEG algorithm, or natural process occuring on Mars, accounts for the top two images (in the left column, not the Viking contexts) at this page, containing raw images from the Mars Global Surveyor dataset.

      Keep in mind that each pixel corresponds to 4.47 meters, and you can download the raw file as they have it, rather than a grainy and blown-up JPEG. That makes the interesting feature in the top image roughly 120 meters in diameter, and the curiously organic-looking features in the rest of the set around 50m wide by several kilometers long.

    9. Re:Conspiracy theorists by SmokeSerpent · · Score: 1

      Oops, our bad. Mars [i]is[/i] apparently inhabited by giant sandworms several kilometers long.

      Thanks for the correction.

      --
      All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
    10. Re:Conspiracy theorists by WayneConrad · · Score: 1

      By all means, explain what compression artifact in the JPEG algorithm, or natural process occuring on Mars, accounts for the top two images (in the left column, not the Viking contexts) at this page, containing raw images from the Mars Global Surveyor dataset.

      To tell you the truth, they look like very interesting sand dunes to me, so I don't feel a need to explain them. Those for whom the images look organic should keep in mind that the human brain is specially built to recognize organic things. It's far more likely that your brain is taking an organic interest in an inorganic thing than it is that there is actually a large organic thing in a place that, as far as we can tell, should not be able to support it. Keep in mind also that the Earth, the friendliest place we know to large organisms, supports none as large as the suspicious looking sand dunes in those images.

      Given that we know that brains like to see organic things where they don't exist, and that Mars is not a friendly place for large organic things, and that organisms that large don't exist even on Earth, I think it is up to you to explain why those are organisms. Extraordiary claims require extraordinary proof.

    11. Re:Conspiracy theorists by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      I'm not seeing anything in those pictures that jumps out at me as something artificially created. Care to point out EXACTLY what it is you think you're seeing? To me those are just a bunch of craters and dunes. Both of which make a lot of sense given the martian climate/atmosphere.

      The thing is, the larger the surface you cover, the more likely it gets you see something unusual. And we've pretty much photographed the entire surface of mars, so...

    12. Re:Conspiracy theorists by pla · · Score: 1

      Oops, our bad. Mars is apparently inhabited by giant sandworms several kilometers long.

      I did not say that. I only said "organic-looking", not the same as "giant sandworms".

      I don't really think we would have missed something as obvious as very large critters living on the surface of Mars. But, as I asked, do you have any suggestions of what natural, non-biogenic processes would cause such unusual structures?

      Skepticism usually benefits science, and I credit you with that. But sarcasm and does not, so you "only" break even. Most of the great discoveries in science resulted from people noticing something that didn't quite seem right, so they looked deeper into the issue. Just flippantly tossing a beanie at a strawman Herbert reference effectively says "I see nuh-thing, NUH-thING!".

      So, pretend you have a good explanation, and go away happy. And someday, even in blissful ignorance, you might benefit from the curiousity of others who bothered to ask "what the hell made that?"

    13. Re:Conspiracy theorists by Tablizer · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Well, if you zoom in even further, you'll find that everything is made up of tiny squares of different colors. The odd thing about it is that they are COMPLETELY square, as if the moon was built from Lego bricks or something. Clearly there is something going on here.

      I for one welcome our new Pixelian overlords.

    14. Re:Conspiracy theorists by JoeRobe · · Score: 1

      Curiously organic? Have you looked at the other images of Mars? The "swiss cheese" poles and such? The wind on Mars does some pretty crazy stuff, so to see something like a dome (which i would think is either a) a smoothed-over sand dune, or b) a consequence of the impact) or some ridges in a hill (which are obviously artifacts of the wind) isn't all that surprising. You can call them curiously organic if you'd like, but there are curiously organic things all over Mars and Earth that have nothing to do with life and more to do with our desire for them to be organic.

      --
      The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
    15. Re:Conspiracy theorists by johnos · · Score: 1

      My favourite was the guy in the 1940s that got sick of the "who really wrote Shakespeare's plays?" theorists. He used a sophisticated deconstructive algorithm (I can't remember what, probably looking for anagrams or suchlike) to "prove" some of the plays were variously written by Gertrude Stein, Picasso and FDR. My dad, an English literature PHD has the official line that the plays were not written by Shakespeare at all, but by someone else of the same name.

    16. Re:Conspiracy theorists by Deef · · Score: 1

      Well, the first image looks to me pretty clearly like a volcano which has blown its top (or a meteor that cut down into bedrock), and then is (was) being slowly rebuilt by a lava feed. For an example of this, look into the crater of Mount St. Helens, in Washington USA. Eventually, the lava dome will fill the crater and rebuild the top of the mountain. Of course, the dome could just be the remains of the actual comet which made the crater.

      For the second image, I notice that the stripes in the material seem to point in the same directions as the prevailing direction of faded lines in other features on the image. This to me implies that the prevailing wind direction is northeast to southwest, and that these features are probably the result of wind erosion. Probably the ridge is composed of a soft material that was extruded through a hard material, and the wind blowing over the hard material picked up rocks and such which eroded the soft material. The regular intervals are probably due to the amount of air pressure that was relieved by a notch having been cut. When you get far enough away from a notch, it relieves more pressure to cut a new notch than for air to be redirected towards an old one. So you get a fairly regular pattern of notches, perpendicular to the wind direction.

      There are a lot of pretty strange land features on Earth, too. Not all of them are the result of organic life. Take a look at Bryce Canyon sometime...

    17. Re:Conspiracy theorists by 11223 · · Score: 1
      Thus, they were written by.... Shakespeare!

      That's gotta be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

    18. Re:Conspiracy theorists by johnos · · Score: 1

      Yes. Have you considered a career in English Lit?

  11. Setting many records these days by ez_TAB · · Score: 0

    Zero to Slashdotted in 8 posts!

    Is anyone able to pull the article from their cache and post the text?

    --
    Quote from ???: "There are lies; there are damn lies; and there are benchmarks."
  12. kind of enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm glad he was "kind of enough" to explain that... maybe someone should "kind of" use grammar check next time.

  13. Little Green Men by Heem · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Ya know, this whole mars thing... What if the pictures they are capturing show up with these little green martian men just like in the cartoons... I mean.. do you really think they would tell us? No, of course not - so then whats the point of the whole mission?

    --
    Don't Tread on Me
    1. Re:Little Green Men by wheany · · Score: 1

      Why would they not tell us?

  14. Great explanation, but why... by darkstream · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...doesn't NASA throw the public a bone? This color correction controversy pops up everytime a probe successfully lands on Mars and sends pictures back. One would think that they would have a standard RGB style camera for publicity shots. Chances are they can only afford to put on cameras practical for the mission, but I still believe a better solution could be provided. It probably just wasn't important to them... ;) Perhaps next time a camera could be included that features lens that provide scentific data and that can double as a publicist for NASA - spitting out RGB standard images that require no color correction.

    --
    Fun with Inkwell | www.coo
    1. Re:Great explanation, but why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This controversy dates back to the Viking landers.

      The first public shots were released with blue skies.

      There was much bitching and moaning and gnashing of teeth by the scientists who claimed it was a publicity stunt to garner public support to explore a planet that looked so "Earth-like," and the real color was reddish. Subsequent photos were then "corrected."

      What gets me is that amature "pixel-tweakers" think they somehow corrected an already corrected photo.
      Of course the blue doesn't look blue you morons - it was taken through the red filter of the Martian sky.

    2. Re:Great explanation, but why... by darkstream · · Score: 1

      Exactly, right from the first landing there's been controversy. That's why it's surprising that NASA hasn't mounted a camera just for civilian shots on these probes. You'd think that after 20 odd years they'd be tired of all the hatemail from tinfoil hat wearing paranoids. ;) I wonder why people feel the need for Mars' sky to be blue. It's not Earth. I'd be disappointed if it wasn't another color. It's all that blasted SF I've read. Binary stars with multiple moons hanging in purple shimmering skies... or were those just the comic books I got those ideas from? Dang! They really DID rot my mind! LOL

      --
      Fun with Inkwell | www.coo
    3. Re:Great explanation, but why... by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative

      A "standard RGB style camera" would a.) have the same problems; although they usually have the color correction built into the firmware b.) would fail because of the extreme conditions (cold, radiation, 10+G acceleration loads, ...)

    4. Re:Great explanation, but why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They especially should have used the same camera/filter setup for the "reference" shot of the sundial preferabley under true sunlight. The RGB color for those references released do not match up at all with the images from mars. What kind of control for an experiment is it when the methods used are different for the control and the experimental?

    5. Re:Great explanation, but why... by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You missed the fact that they do have the filters on their camera for taking standard RGB photos. However, they chose to use the near infrared filter instead of plain ol' red because it is more usefull to them. I for one would be very upset if I heard NASA was wasting bandwidth on publicity photos. That is not what multi-million dollar scientific missions are for.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    6. Re:Great explanation, but why... by !the!bad!fish! · · Score: 1
      why ...doesn't NASA throw the public a bone?
      This color correction controversy pops up everytime...

      Controversy means more people talking about it.
      more publicity == more funding

      --
      Kids today are tyrants. They contradict their parent, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers. - Socrates 400 BC
    7. Re:Great explanation, but why... by octal666 · · Score: 1

      They can afford to send a lego mini-figure and they cannot afford to send a 50 1Mp digital camera?

      --
      DON'T PANIC
    8. Re:Great explanation, but why... by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here's a page on The Colors of Mars written by Don Davis, a "Space Artist and Animator" before the current beat up, which explains all the problems involved in trying to get a "true" colour image. He has examples of what he thinks a man on the spot might see. Elsewhere on his site he covers other planets and nebulae.

    9. Re:Great explanation, but why... by groomed · · Score: 1

      I for one would be very upset if I heard NASA was wasting bandwidth on publicity photos. That is not what multi-million dollar scientific missions are for.

      So what are they for? The advancement of science? But to what end? The betterment of mankind? The thrill of pure knowledge? But then isn't the thrill of a pretty picture just as important?

    10. Re:Great explanation, but why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're asuming the rover can fail any time. What would you rather they do first? The hard science, or the PR shots?

      Imagine if the rover failed tomorrow and they had gone for the PR shots first. They'd have to admit they got no good scientific data back from it. That would piss congress off to no end.

      They'll send back regular RGB images I'm sure. It's just gonna take a while.

  15. Mirror by earplug · · Score: 5, Informative
  16. Re:They left out the most obvious explanation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What fiasco?

    The tyrant was brought down with the fastest advacing and the most successful military operation in the history of warfare?

  17. Mirror! by vidnet · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. Re:Mirror! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You actually put out a mirror on ADSL?(!)

      Nice.

  18. Bitmapped horizon by l0wland · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Can anyone explain to me why the horizon of the hi-res images is bitmapped ? (beware, pic in link is 12MB in size)

    Aside of the odd colors, I found this one of the most interesting anomalies in the pictures so far.

    --

    "Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
    1. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's just an artifact of the JPEG compression that was used on the images.

    2. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Kutsal · · Score: 1, Funny

      That's because they're hiding the power lines, and the highway far out back. If you look closer, you'll see one of those rocks has a digital watch on his arm, too..

      --
      Karma: Bad (but who really cares anyway?)
    3. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't call it 'bitmapped', but you can clearly see the pixels there. I thought it was strange, too.

      I'd guess it's because the contrast with the sky, but what do I know..

    4. Re:Bitmapped horizon by l0wland · · Score: 3, Interesting
      That's just an artifact of the JPEG compression that was used on the images.

      That's what I thought too, until I tried to reproduce that. Try it with Photoshop or another photo-editing app, you will not be able to get a sharp pixelated line like that when using JPEG-compression.

      That should read as: At least I couldn't :-)

      --

      "Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
    5. Re:Bitmapped horizon by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I think all of the images NASA takes are in TIFF format for archival quality. I'm sure if you look on the website, you should be able to download the 50+MB files. But for the general public, JPG format will suffice for web browsing use.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    6. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange use of the word "bitmapped", but anyway, the horizion doesn't look all that strange it's just heavily anti-aliased. A a sharp conture simply looks that bad on a screen using normal resolutions. If you don't belive me open the image in gimp and zoom.

    7. Re:Bitmapped horizon by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Can anyone explain to me why the horizon of the hi-res images is bitmapped

      The entire image is a bitmap, because that's the way digital cameras work. It's just more obvious when you have a sharp boundary to look at.

    8. Re:Bitmapped horizon by l0wland · · Score: 1
      The entire image is a bitmap, because that's the way digital cameras work. It's just more obvious when you have a sharp boundary to look at.

      Whether or not I was using the right words for my question, you DID understand what I was talking about ;-)

      So yes, I meant the sharp boundary.

      --

      "Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
    9. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you look at one of the earlier panoramas (e.g., in grey or the partial ones in colour), it is pretty obvious why -- with the sun present, the range of brightness in the image is extreme, and it is difficult to get reasonable contrast from the ground unless you ignore the sky and over-stretch the contrast until the sky is almost white. It is worse when trying to make an image from a series of differently-exposed tiles. Because the sky is not the most interesting part of the image, and it just takes up extra space in the file, I think they just selected it, cropped it out, and set it to an even shade so it would compress well and not look messy with lots of seams between tiles.

      I'm sure they will make some more full-res colour panoramas that include the sky eventually.

    10. Re:Bitmapped horizon by MaxiMouse · · Score: 1

      This is just a guess, but I beleive that because of the nature of the photos, the real sky can't be used. So they replaced it with a one colored background that represents the sky color. I came to this conclusion because of two things. One, the horizon looks like it has been cut out and placed upon a new background. Two, as far as I can see, the entire sky consists of on 1 color, and at least in normal photography this would be very unlikely.

    11. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1

      Maybe the Spirit Pancam imager doesn't have an anti-alias filter. Interesting link, though. All I acn say is that I'm glad I'm not doing those composites! I think I'd be Martian rock-blind by now!

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    12. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think the real reason is probably that the linked panorama has - of course been perspective processed as part of the stitching routine. You can see just how distorted some of the image must be by looking across the bottom.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    13. Re:Bitmapped horizon by zoney_ie · · Score: 1

      I would guess that the sky was replaced. The image is a mosaic, pictures taken at different times etc. The ground has been adjusted in contrast/brightness to mostly match up (but not quite), but the sky probably couldn't be matched up. Seeing as it's just a gradient dusty colour anyways, I imagine that a simulated sky was added.

      That's my guess anyways.

      --
      -- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
    14. Re:Bitmapped horizon by pomakis · · Score: 1
      Can anyone explain to me why the horizon of the hi-res images is bitmapped?

      Every single pixel in the sky is exactly 0xD6A57A, which is very extraordinarily unlikely in a CCD-produced image. The only obvious answer is that the sky in this particular image was painted out for some reason. The sharp pixels on the horizon are a side-effect of this. (Side note: they could have done a better job of this by alpha-blending a couple of pixels down.) Why they did this, I don't know. I'm sure it wasn't to deceive. It was probably just to remove the ugly striping that usually results from stitching a number of images together into a single panoramic image.

    15. Re:Bitmapped horizon by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      A property of bitmapped images, such as those taken by digital cameras, is that sharp boundaries tend to look jagged, unless antialiasing techniques are used to mask this effect. Such antialiasing would not be appropriate for scientific images, because even though it produces a more pleasing image to the eye, it degrades the data.

    16. Re:Bitmapped horizon by dvdeug · · Score: 1

      Can anyone explain to me why the horizon of the hi-res images is bitmapped ?

      Just a guess (IANANE}, but it looks like they cut out the sky and replaced it with a solid color. Instead of using various alpha levels to make it blend properly, they used one-bit transparency, making the line look bitmapped.

    17. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Xoder · · Score: 1

      JPEG uses 8x8 (usually) squares, using weighted cosine functions in the YUV spectrum as best as possible. The thing is, with significantly large enough JPEG photos, and with low enough compression, you can get effects like the one you describe.

      I would check the compression preferences, but I'm on dial-up and it's a HUGE photo (11174x1385), you insentive clod!

      --
      The previous sig has been removed due to /. protecting your best interests
    18. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      Can anyone explain to me why the horizon of the hi-res images is bitmapped [stair-stepped] ?

      The truth is out. Mars is made of Legos!

    19. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      A property of bitmapped images, such as those taken by digital cameras, is that sharp boundaries tend to look jagged, unless antialiasing techniques are used to mask this effect.

      Yes, but rocks near the horizon *are* blurred (anti-aliased). If the sampling was too "sharp", then the rocks and ridge borders near the horizon would also look "pixelly", but they don't.

    20. Re:Bitmapped horizon by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Yes, but rocks near the horizon *are* blurred (anti-aliased). If the sampling was too "sharp", then the rocks and ridge borders near the horizon would also look "pixelly", but they don't.

      I think the horizon is too far away for us to see any detail of rocks near the horizon. If you zoom in with an image editor, you will see that the rocks also look "pixelly," but since it's dark brown against a somewhat less dark brown, it's not that noticeable. But the sky is so much lighter than the ground that a pixel that includes any significant part of the ground is going to look much darker than a pixel that is all sky, hence the pixels are more obvious.

    21. Re:Bitmapped horizon by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I have never seen that affect with digital cameras, even near bright backgrounds. If anything, the bright backgrounds create a kind of "halo affect" that itself tends to have soft edges.

      I think what happened is that since it is made up of a bunch of smaller images, some of the sky may actually be missing in spots, and the brightness does not quite match in each section because of lens glare and other artifacts. Thus, they simply selected a close color and painted the rest of the sky in.

    22. Re:Bitmapped horizon by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      I have never seen that affect with digital cameras, even near bright backgrounds. If anything, the bright backgrounds create a kind of "halo affect" that itself tends to have soft edges

      The halo effect you describe is probably either overexposure or a sharpening artifact. I've certainly seen pixellation in digital photos when a dark object is seen against the sky.

  19. Article text by epsalon · · Score: 5, Informative

    TOP STORY: NASA Is Not Altering Mars Colors.

    Posted by: Kano
    On: Sun January, 18 2004 @ 03:34 GMT
    This article is a brief summarised explanation of how the PanCam on the Mars Spirit Rover operates, in relation to the strange appearance of the calibration sundial in some pictures. The question was first raised by ATS member AArchAngel, and has been discussed at length in this AboveTopSecret forum thread and ATSNN story:
    thread

    Mars Spirit Rover Picture analysis.

    In this thread I will attempt to summarise my posts to the larger thread.

    What are you talking about?

    Ok, the initial alarm was raised after it was noticed that the color-calibration sundial mounted on the rover, looked quite markedly different in the Mars-Panorama shots compared to its regular appearance.

    Immediately wide-ranging theories began to pop up. At this stage I knew very little of the particulars of the PanCam so I decided to go and see what the Horses mouth had to say. I sent out a swag of emails to the NASA marsrover team, the Athena Instrument team at Cornell University, and the long shot, an email to Assoc. Professor James Bell. Who is the Pancam Payload Element Lead for the mission.

    Now, getting no response from the Athena team, and an automated response from the NASA team. I was amazed and delighted to see that Dr. Bell had indeed taken the time out of his busy schedule to help explain this quirk in the panorama pictures. His email response is below:

    quote:Thanks for writing. The answer is that the color chips on the sundial have different colors in the near-infrared range of Pancam filters. For example, the blue chip is dark near 600 nm, where humans see red light, but is especially bright at 750 nm, which is used as "red" for many Pancam images. So it appears pink in RGB composites. We chose the pigments for the chips on purpose this way, so they could provide different patterns of brightnesses regardless of which filters we used. The details of the colors of the pigments are published in a paper I wrote in the December issue of the Journal of Geophysical Research (Planets), in case you want more details...

    All of us tired folks on the team are really happy that so many people around the world are following the mission and sending their support and encouragement...

    Thanks,

    Jim Bell
    Cornell U.

    Now, as far as the pink tab where the blue one should be, that email is infact the complete answer. But its not easily understandable to the layman. Below I will attempt to explain why this occurs.

    Click here to read comments or post your own.

    Displaying the first 12 replies to this news story...
    Posted by: Kano
    On: Sun January, 18 2004 @ 03:35 GMT
    Digital Cameras

    Firstly, we need to understand how the PanCam, and indeed digital photography in general works.

    Luckily for us we have our good friends at http://www.howstuffworks.com to turn to.

    How Digital Cameras Work

    It would be worthwhile to read the entire article on howstuffworks, for a fuller understanding of the processes at work. But because I know you are all busy (lazy?) I will summarise.

    Basically, the heart of a digital camera is the charge coupled device or CCD. This CCD converts light hitting it into electrical impulses, the brighter the light, the stronger the impulse. Now, CCD's are color-blind. All they do is signal how bright the light hitting them is. All well and good for black and white photography. But for color we need to do more. To get a color-picture. We need to record images via the CCD using a series of 3 filters. A Red filter, a Green filter, and a Blue filter. These are then recombined afterwards to give a color-representation of the picture. (Note, cheaper options like the Bayer filter pattern are often used in commercial digital cameras, but they use interpolation and are subsequently less accurate than 3-filter methods.

    Never True Color

    Quite a big deal has been made o

  20. Re:wow by demmer · · Score: 1

    we need a website torrent" system

  21. Hey, this is Slashdot! by Lispy · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't that have been:
    "I am colorblind you insensitive clod?" ;-)=

  22. Coloring. by AmoebafromSweden · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well its OK, if Nasa wants to change the colors. No fuzz.

    But can they tell if they do that and also provide pictures with alternative coloring so that the recipient have choice.

    That would seem reasonable to me.

    They can do that, and still Edit away all the alien artifacts...

    1. Re:Coloring. by PhuCknuT · · Score: 4, Informative

      Every single image taken by the rover (raw and not even combined into color images) is available for download from the mars rover website. Check here.

    2. Re:Coloring. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But can they tell if they do that and also provide pictures with alternative coloring so that the recipient have choice."

      Or else what, they're racist? "Alternate coloring", wtf.

      You want choice? Take the raw data and recolor it yourself.

    3. Re:Coloring. by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or else what, they're racist? "Alternate coloring", wtf.

      Imagine what would happen if the Nazi's had Mars probes. They would dink around with the colors to make them 'Arien' pure.

      And, the Soviets would probably make it even redder to match their flag.

      The UN would make it all gray to not offend anybody.

      John Lennon would make it Psychodelic.

      Michael Jackson would make it increasingly paler on each successive mission.

  23. Text of the link by Walkiry · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Sorry, I don't have anywhere to mirror this with images and all (anywhere that would survive an /. that is ;) )

    TOP STORY: NASA Is Not Altering Mars Colors.



    Posted by: Kano On: Sun January, 18 2004 @ 03:34 GMT This article is a brief summarised explanation of how the PanCam on the Mars Spirit Rover operates, in relation to the strange appearance of the calibration sundial in some pictures. The question was first raised by ATS member AArchAngel, and has been discussed at length in this AboveTopSecret forum thread and ATSNN story: thread

    Mars Spirit Rover Picture analysis.

    In this thread I will attempt to summarise my posts to the larger thread.

    What are you talking about?

    Ok, the initial alarm was raised after it was noticed that the color-calibration sundial mounted on the rover, looked quite markedly different in the Mars-Panorama shots compared to its regular appearance.

    Immediately wide-ranging theories began to pop up. At this stage I knew very little of the particulars of the PanCam so I decided to go and see what the Horses mouth had to say. I sent out a swag of emails to the NASA marsrover team, the Athena Instrument team at Cornell University, and the long shot, an email to Assoc. Professor James Bell. Who is the Pancam Payload Element Lead for the mission.

    Now, getting no response from the Athena team, and an automated response from the NASA team. I was amazed and delighted to see that Dr. Bell had indeed taken the time out of his busy schedule to help explain this quirk in the panorama pictures. His email response is below:

    quote:
    --------
    Thanks for writing. The answer is that the color chips on the sundial have different colors in the near-infrared range of Pancam filters. For example, the blue chip is dark near 600 nm, where humans see red light, but is especially bright at 750 nm, which is used as "red" for many Pancam images. So it appears pink in RGB composites. We chose the pigments for the chips on purpose this way, so they could provide different patterns of brightnesses regardless of which filters we used. The details of the colors of the pigments are published in a paper I wrote in the December issue of the Journal of Geophysical Research (Planets), in case you want more details...

    All of us tired folks on the team are really happy that so many people around the world are following the mission and sending their support and encouragement...

    Thanks,

    Jim Bell
    Cornell U.
    -------


    Now, as far as the pink tab where the blue one should be, that email is infact the complete answer. But its not easily understandable to the layman. Below I will attempt to explain why this occurs.

    Click here to read comments or post your own.

    Displaying the first 12 replies to this news story...
    Posted by: Kano
    On: Sun January, 18 2004 @ 03:35 GMT
    Digital Cameras


    Firstly, we need to understand how the PanCam, and indeed digital photography in general works.

    Luckily for us we have our good friends at http://www.howstuffworks.com to turn to.

    How Digital Cameras Work

    It would be worthwhile to read the entire article on howstuffworks, for a fuller understanding of the processes at work. But because I know you are all busy (lazy?) I will summarise.

    Basically, the heart of a digital camera is the charge coupled device or CCD. This CCD converts light hitting it into electrical impulses, the brighter the light, the stronger the impulse. Now, CCD's are color-blind. All they do is signal how bright the light hitting them is. All well and good for black and white photography. But for color we need to do more. To get a color-picture. We need to record images via the CCD using a series of 3 filters. A Red filter, a Green filter, and a Blue filter. These are then recombined afterwards to give a color-representation of the picture. (Note, cheaper options

    --
    ---- Take the Space Quiz!
    1. Re:Text of the link by woodyatt.dean · · Score: 1

      http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/jan-3 0-2004/Spirit_Sol26_med.jpg

      http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spi ri t/20040130a/Spirit_Sol26_Pancam-B006R1.jpg

      Hiya,

      the above two pictures as of 0918 GMT shows the calibration target on spirit,

      The calibration target is in true colour, i.e. the blue IS blue

      Why dont they put paid to the conspiracy theorists once and for all, a little l'espion digital camera only weighs a few grammes, bung one of them on the lander :-)

  24. red skies vs blue skies by Alien54 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This controversy has been seen earlier on SlashDot in this story on the Blue Skies of Mars.

    The questions are, of course,

    1. if there is a tinted color light source, what would the color target display on a normal color target? What would it show via the camera with the tinted light source
    2. The sun is the same light source on mars as it is on earth, therefore it should be easy enough to take a solar spectrum and see what the degree of tinting is.
    3. With an atmosphere at 1% or less of the earth, the spectrum could nearly be the same spectrum as in a vacuum
    4. if the spectrums are essentially similar, then the color targets should be the same, say as on earth or in vacuum, given a clear day without dust and clouds, etc.
    5. Of course,there is also the matter of the end result of different photo filters getting mis interpreted. However, JPL has published some pictures with red skies, and some with blue skies, as this item from the tin foil hat crowd. This has contributed to the controversy.
    See also this earlier slashdot story on the Mars Sundials

    So it looks like this particular annoyance has been around for a while.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    1. Re:red skies vs blue skies by Alien54 · · Score: 4, Informative

      For an interesting view on how colors shift when you use filters, see this item on the Color Rendering Process, "Digichromatography"

      --
      "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    2. Re:red skies vs blue skies by TPFH · · Score: 1

      A very interesting post.

      Now, can someone tell me how living on Mars would affect the lyrics to Put on a Happy Face.

      "Grey skies are gonna clear up
      Put on a happy face
      Brush off the clouds and cheer up
      Put on a happy face .... "

      On second thought, I hate that song.
      Never mind.
      I'll just go back to listening to c93.

      (This message brought to you by: Random posting through meta-moderation.)

      --
      This signature used to contain a cute kitty virus with ansii art. Please set the slashdot editors on fire. Thank you
  25. Re:They left out the most obvious explanation by PhuCknuT · · Score: 1

    Not to mention that this mars mission was planned before GWB was even 'elected'.

  26. Colorization? by Pedrito · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't know what you guys are talking about. Those colors all look fine to me. Mars looks exactly like it did when I was last there...

  27. *sigh* by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wow, do we really need another thread about article about the infamous Mars colonization. We already discussed this in the last one. It's all about filters used. When blue-according-to-the-human-eye turns extremely red, well, that's obviously when they aren't using a filter to reflect colors as seen by the human eye best, but to enhance other wavelengths. I don't really see what the problem is, and why this of all technical stuff has to be so mysterious.

    The link in the article is of course slashdotted now, so here's another one explaining how a camera on the rover works:

    The Panoramic Camera (Pancam)

    Pay particular attention to the last paragraph there.

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    1. Re:*sigh* by aminorex · · Score: 3, Informative

      You seem not to understand the issue.

      NASA has a broad spectrum of image data from Mars.
      They could use this data to present a picture of
      Mars as it actually appears, or they could use the
      data to present a picture of Mars which does not
      represent the actual appearance. By making the
      latter choice, they misinform the public.

      In this way, they put themselves in the same class
      with persons who offer misinterpretations of image
      data from the moon landings to argue that those
      landings were hoaxed: Both publications serve to
      misinform an already woefully misinformed public.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    2. Re:*sigh* by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      NASA has a broad spectrum of image data from Mars.
      They could use this data to present a picture of
      Mars as it actually appears, or they could use the
      data to present a picture of Mars which does not
      represent the actual appearance. By making the
      latter choice, they misinform the public.


      Hmm...? But they still do it very often and explicitly tell when they do. Just look at this recently released image for example:

      The rover's first exploration rock

      That one is supposed to be "true color" for example. I could pick a dozen more for you. The huge 360 degree panorama was also downloadable as a true color image from JPL's servers.

      I must say I still don't get what the problem is. They release true color images occasionally, and other times they release "false color" images. Both are necessary for their own purposes, and they pretty much always mention it in the picture texts. What more *are* you expecting?

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    3. Re:*sigh* by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      NASA has a broad spectrum of image data from Mars.
      They could use this data to present a picture of
      Mars as it actually appears, or they could use the
      data to present a picture of Mars which does not
      represent the actual appearance.


      They certainly can (and occasionally do) manipulate an image to simulates what an imaginary human visitor might see, but you can hardly blame them for preferring to show the real data, which is really more honest.

  28. Re:I'm confused... by kalayl · · Score: 1

    Australian outback ey? Before you know it we'll have red-tinted shots of Hobbiton and Mount Doom popping up on the NASA site too.

  29. Re:They left out the most obvious explanation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    > The tyrant was brought down with the fastest advacing and the most successful military operation in the history of warfare?

    Fastest advancing? Dude, it took them three whole movies to finish that shit up! And what was with that boat trip at the end?

  30. The EPT Answer by mykej · · Score: 1

    The real reason we've seen no Martians. Nobody knows the proper way to read home pregnacy tests there. They all died out.

    1. Re:The EPT Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      aaaa-hahahaha... ho-ho-ho... no! stop it - really... you're just TOOOO funny.

  31. Re:The Americans Faked The Landing by CaptainAlbert · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know when "The Moon Landing Special Edition" will be out on DVD?

    I heard someone just bought the rights to do a big-budget remake sometime this decade. Betcha it's not as good as the original though.

    Meesa jar-jar-Bush!, erm, etc.

    --
    These sigs are more interesting tha
  32. Re:They left out the most obvious explanation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just presidential courtesy. You set the other guy up for a few lies ahead of time, and he is expected to do the same, regardless of who is elected. Of course if possible, you are trying to set it up for your own party.

  33. Re:Dont trust this man, he's part of the conspirac by kinnell · · Score: 2, Funny
    They're really colorizing the pictures from Mars to hide the proof of aliens!!

    That's just paranoid. The real reason they are colorising the images is because the Viking landings were faked, and now all the images from successful landings have to be altered to look like the Viking images, just to hide the sinister truth.

    --
    If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
  34. Re:Obscurity through Boredom by PhuCknuT · · Score: 1

    How did that get modded up? The conspiracy bitches complain about the color correction then complain more when it's explained in too much detail?

  35. Once again, this link could be useful by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Informative

    Mars Climate FAQ:
    - Why isn't the Martian sky blue like the Earth's?

    That page includes images using colors-close-to-what-a-human-eye-would-see-them-as as well.

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  36. What about the aliasing on the horizons? by troon · · Score: 1

    I think NASA have edited out the sky to a pale pink colour. Take a look at the 12MB full panorama, and see how the horizon suffers from the jaggies.

    Don't feed me any rubbish about JPEG compression, because JPEG doesn't do that. The raw image from the camera should be naturally anti-aliased: where a boundary crosses a CCD pixel, that pixel will receive a weighted average of the light from either side of the boundary.

    The sky is unexpectedly uniform over the entire panorama - where's the sun?

    --
    Ydco co ,df C erb-y go. a Ekrpat t.fxrapev
    1. Re:What about the aliasing on the horizons? by coult · · Score: 1

      I wondered about that too. Could it be that the panorama sky would show the sun in multiple places? After all, the panorama is made using multiple shots stitched together, and the sun moves across the sky during this process. Maybe that's why they edit out the sky in the panorama shots.

      --

      All is Number -Pythagoras.

    2. Re:What about the aliasing on the horizons? by bWareiWare.co.uk · · Score: 2, Informative

      The horizon line does show very strong evidence of digital image manipulation. However, the fact that the accompanying press release claims that this image was manually stitched together form 675 separate digital photographs might also indicate that the image has been digitally manipulated.

    3. Re:What about the aliasing on the horizons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      However, the fact that the accompanying press release claims that this image was manually stitched together form 675 separate digital photographs might also indicate that the image has been digitally manipulated.

      Might?

  37. Raw image data by tr0llb4rt0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It'd be interesting to see the raw image data but I expect that without software manipulation it'd be a pointless excercise.

    --
    Worst .sig ever!
    1. Re:Raw image data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get a copy of Maestro

      It's the same software JPL uses to proccess the raw data.. Although its more of a "lite" version for home users

      About every week they release a new data set which contains the raw data from the mission. You can view the images before they're colorized, zoom in and out, even view the terrain in 3D

      It's written in java and works on

      Windows XP/2000/98/Me
      Mac OS X version 10.3 (Panther), with Java3D installed
      Linux (recent versions)
      Solaris (recent versions)

  38. Color Questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know my digital camera has settings for getting true whites under florescent or incandescent lighting, but what do you do when your natural light is pinkish-yellow?

    Subtly adjusting the Mars photos is no big deal when you consider how much color is made up for the shots of galaxies, nebulas and other deep space bodies. Those shots are often black and white to begin with!

    1. Re:Color Questions... by mwburden · · Score: 1

      Those shots are often black and white to begin with!

      Actually, they're not usually black and white, they're more often things like gamma, x-ray, UV, etc. Even simply making them black and white would make a significant change in the visible image.

    2. Re:Color Questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is no way of seeing colors "perfectly", since every person perceives colors differently due to genetics and/or (especially) age.

      Also, women generally have more of each type of cones in their eyes, and have a better color perception than men. And in some extremely rare cases, some women (no man found yet) have been found to have a fourth type of cone (as also seen in some birds and reptiles).

      Lastly, photography, digital or silver-based, can only produce an approximate view of reality. It cannot reproduce images of the real as perceived by the eyes and the mind.

  39. Original Beagle photo found.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is the unedited photo of Beagle, just after said events took place...

  40. Re:Obscurity through Boredom by Lispy · · Score: 0

    Yes, it was supposed to be funny. First it got modded "Interesting" wich was rather confusing to me and now it's a Troll. Actually it was neither. Well, nevermind! Hey! At least someone got it! ;-)

  41. wow! by ChipMonk · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Kano's self-composed thread was about as long as Joe Clark's web accessibility discussion. Thanks, Kano!

  42. see through clothes? by jmichaelg · · Score: 1

    Wasn't there a Sony camera awhile back that could see through clothing because it was ir sensitive? Gave the up-skirt crowd a thrill.

  43. You should have read the whole thing by NickFusion · · Score: 3, Informative

    The images are not recolored to "make them look pretty."

    There are two main reasons for the color shifts.

    Reason one, some of the images are taken lower in the IR spectrum, and the pigments on the sundail are desighned to react differently in that part of the spectrum.

    Reason two, all the images sent back have their individual RGB channels normalized, which is similar to using "auto levels" in photoshop.

    But the important factor is this: the sundail has a mirror which shows both the sky & the ground, and has full white & black reagions, meaning that even a normalized image will come through unscathed by color changes. These colors are then used to match colors for the rest of the images.

    Bottom line, the colors we see are as accurate as can be gleaned, not just made up to look pretty.

    (You can test this with digital camera images of your own. Run Auto Level on them (which equalizes the color channels). If there are images that full of color, but have no areas of pure white & pure black, you'll likely get some whacky colors. I have a picture of the Charles river with blue sky, green grass, and purple water)

    --
    What were you expecting?
  44. Screw the camera. by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 1

    For sure I can see the infrared too if I look very closely. It just looks like a very dim red glow, though, nothing interesting.

    Tim

    --
    Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    1. Re:Screw the camera. by gordyf · · Score: 1

      Are you sure it's not that the emitter's spilling into the visible red range, rather than you seeing infrared?

    2. Re:Screw the camera. by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 1

      It's way cooler to believe I have a little bit of sensitivity to the infrared. (I'm told this is somewhat common.)

      Tim

      --
      Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
  45. Re:They left out the most obvious explanation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bush Sr. announced the same 'going to mars' thing, it didn't happen. It's not happening this time, either.

  46. What color is the night sky on earth? by aauu · · Score: 1

    Blue of course! The night sky is the same color as the day. Just not as bright and we see it as black (At least if you're not in a city). The sky on mars will not be blue. The atomsphere is much less dense than earth so the scattering of light will be much less. The Martian atmosphere contains more dust and much less water than earth. When I look at the ground portion of the images, the ground and rocks are colored appropriately. The groud greatly resemble many places in the southwest, with the exception of the total lack of plant life. SOme images of the sahara desert would be indistinguishable except for the overall color due to the different minerals and sky color.

    --
    When I was young, I had to rub sticks together to compute.
    1. Re:What color is the night sky on earth? by nagora · · Score: 1
      Blue of course! The night sky is the same color as the day

      Well, then why not say "red" since sunset is during the day?

      The night sky is black because there is almost no light striking it; the daytime sky is blue most of the time because light is striking it at a particular range of angles and at sunset/rise it is red because the light is striking it at a different range of angles.

      It doesn't make much sense to say that the sky is a particular colour independant of the light passing through it. Or, at least, whatever colour it has is not likely to be the ones we see when the sun is up, it's probably much subtler.

      TWW

      --
      "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    2. Re:What color is the night sky on earth? by mph · · Score: 1
      Blue of course! The night sky is the same color as the day.
      Only if the moon is up (since moonlight has about the same spectrum as sunlight). In the absence of the moon, the night sky is red. The light comes from molecular emission from the atmosphere. Scattering of blue doesn't come into play if you don't have a source of blue light (e.g. the sun or moon).

      Here is a night-sky spectrum at Kitt Peak. Note the OH emission in the red. Also important is sodium light pollution ("Na D" and "HPS") even well outside the nearest city.

    3. Re:What color is the night sky on earth? by barawn · · Score: 1

      Blue of course! The night sky is the same color as the day.

      Um, no. The only reason the sky is blue is because we're looking at it in blue-green light - the Sun. The Sun's spectrum peaks in the blue-green - not the orange that we see, because the blue is scattered in the atmosphere. Rayleigh scattering actually peaks in the violet, not the blue, so depending on how you define color, the color of the sky should probably be purple. If you put the sky underneath a uniform spectral source (something with a flat color dependence), it'd probably look much more purple than it does now.

      The Moon shines in reflected sunlight, but of course, the reflected spectrum of the Sun, off the Moon, is not the same as the initial spectrum of the Sun, because the Moon absorbs in some wavelengths and not in others. (*obviously*: if the Moon looked like our Earth, it would be blue, now wouldn't it? and if it was Mars, it'd be red).

      If the sky is blue during the night - and I haven't done a spectrophotometer measurement of the night sky - it's not an "of course" : it would just turn out to be dumb luck that the Moon reflected a spectrum from the Sun that was mostly identical to the incident solar spectrum.

  47. Please explain this... by Capital_Z · · Score: 1

    Forget Mars.
    Explain to me how Uranus got to be that color!

    can't resist... must post Uranus joke

    1. Re:Please explain this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's the Klingons' fault!

    2. Re:Please explain this... by ProKras · · Score: 1
      Forget Mars.
      Explain to me how Uranus got to be that color!

      I don't get it.
      Voice inside my head: "I'm sorry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all."
      Oh. What's it called now?
      Voice inside my head: "Urectum. Here, let me locate it for you."
  48. Re:The Americans Faked The Landing by AJWM · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know when "The Moon Landing Special Edition" will be out on DVD?

    Check out the boxed HBO series "From The Earth To The Moon". Some of the effects are better, and there are definitely some better "3rd person" shots of the lunar astronauts doing stuff.

    On the other hand some of the effects are cheesier -- the view out the LM window of the lunar touchdown is clearer, but this time they let the kicked-up dust billow in an obvious reaction with surrounding atmosphere, rather than just radiating straight out the way it did in the original (as it would in vacuum). (Oh, and some of the moon walking has problems too -- they did a good job rigging the astronauts to simulate a 1/6 G bounce-walk, but the dirt they kick up still falls back at an obvious 1G rate. The original did it much better and simulated the dirt at 1/6 G too.)

    (Seriously, if you haven't seen that HBO series recently, do yourself a favor and find it and watch it. Good stuff.)

    --
    -- Alastair
  49. weird by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

    Why did you post a link to a picture of your face?

  50. It's all about CGI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole mars lander thing is a fake, I admit it. I cooked it up on a red rocky diorama in my basement, and a computer. NASA hired me so they could get some good PR.

    C'mon... who cares?!

    1. Re:It's all about CGI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      C'mon... who cares?!

      You forgot. We're geeks. We obsess on this kind of stuff.

  51. Dear NASA (and your fanboys) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't see in infra-red.

    When you insist on using this for the "red" channel in your images the color will always be wrong. Who do I have to work over with a 2x4 to get people to understand this?

    As the article states - instead of throwing away wavelengths above the visible spectrum (as the human eye would do), they are instead clamped. Anything bright infra-red becomes bright visible-red. Net result - way too much red in the pictures.

    I don't give a damn about "scientific data" produced by including infra-red.

    What color would the mars ground and sky appear to my own eyes if I were standing on Mars? I can't see in infra-red, so why are you including that in your "visible" images?

    Love,

    AC.

    1. Re:Dear NASA (and your fanboys) by barawn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As the article states - instead of throwing away wavelengths above the visible spectrum (as the human eye would do), they are instead clamped. Anything bright infra-red becomes bright visible-red. Net result - way too much red in the pictures.


      Wow, you read the article, but apparently missed the entire point! I'm impressed.

      CCDs are color blind. They take intensity maps only. Generally, they use R, G, and B filters with wavelengths as listed in the article. Many of the pictures were taken with an "R" filter that has a much longer wavelength than the usual R.

      You can't "throw away" wavelength information because you don't have any. All you have are intensity maps at 3 wavelengths. You simply do not intensity maps at the middle.

      If you want NASA to put out only near-true-color images, enjoy. I'll take all the other pictures and not worry so much, along with the rest of the normal humans. Of course, you'll also still have to deal with the fact that CCDs respond linearly to intensity and your eye is (somewhat) logarithmic, so any time you look at a bright source, everything will be completely wrong. Of course, everyone already knows this - pictures never look exactly the same as reality, unless they've been very very carefully taken with someone comparing the result to what they see with their own eyes, or in very controlled circumstances.

      Want to know what Mars really looks like to the human eye? Go there (*). Currently, there's no other "real" practical way, without building some very expensive (and very useless) piece of equipment.

      (*: You could also calculate it because you know the atmosphere and you know the input spectrum. NASA has - it's something like a yellowish-brownish-red ("butterscotch", they call it).

    2. Re:Dear NASA (and your fanboys) by briansz · · Score: 1

      CCDs respond linearly to intensity and your eye is (somewhat) logarithmic

      Is this responsible for the compressed range of contrast in digital and film also (5 vs. 14 stops for the human eye)?

      Never read a satisfactory explanation for why we can't produce a film or imager that can see contrast as well as we can.

    3. Re:Dear NASA (and your fanboys) by barawn · · Score: 1

      You bet. The eye can resolve tremendous amounts of contrast. It has to: it works in day *and* night with (ignoring pupil dilation) virtually the same aperture/focal length/shutter speed!), and virtually everything else is linear (which is what *science* wants it to be).

      This is why stellar magnitudes are listed in a logarithmic scale, as well, so that "twice as bright" stars are (somewhat) twice the magnitude (There's linear scaling that I can't quite remember: I want to say a factor of 5 in magnitude is a factor of 100 in intensity, but I could be wrong).

      Everyone involved in astronomical imaging (and probably a lot of professional photography) knows this: while humans can *see* both the Sun and the trees around them clearly, even though the two have intensities millions of times away from each other, try to take a picture of it, and you don't have a prayer. Same thing with the Moon - try to get a picture of the moon, and if you try to not overexpose the Moon, there are *no* stars around it, while your eye can clearly see stars nearby.

      I say "somewhat" logarithmic because a logarithmic response (i.e., something "twice as bright" is 10 times brighter) is an approximation for the eye's response to intensity, which is very complicated. But it is pretty good.

    4. Re:Dear NASA (and your fanboys) by ajs · · Score: 1

      More importantly, if you corrected the images so that it looked as it would look to the human eye (ignore that that's not possible for a second), then you'd have conspiracy theorists yelling about how the RAW images have detail that has been EDITED OUT of the final pictures for public consumption! Oh, I can just see it now...

      "In the FALSE images that NASA has chosen to show the public, color odities have been edited out. Clearly this demonstrates that Spirit burned up in the Martian atmosphere due to another "NASA accident" (martians with guns) and they have substituted a makeshift lander lookalike in a studio to take pictures. Hollywood's crack team of fantasy-generating, sabatuers of truth at ILM have clearly post-processed the RAW images in order to make them seem more like the original lander. The worst part is that they flaunt this coverup by releasing the RAW images, assuming that the public is too sheep-like from the constant floridation to actually compare the data for themselves! PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS I tell you! Precious... MY precious...."

      So bravo NASA for not giving them yet another set of ready-made rants.

  52. We're up... almost by TheSkepticOverlord · · Score: 1

    You haven't killed us yet! But almost. The slashdot activity has certainly slowed us down, but we're not out. Thanks for your interest in this story, we're not like all the other tin-foil-hatters out there... we don't believe every conspiracy, which is why we worked hard to quickly debunk this one. We're redirecting today's traffic to a static HTML version of the article (thank you mod_rewrite) so we're still up... but slow. Enjoy.

    1. Re:We're up... almost by mdrejhon · · Score: 1

      Kano,

      They took the red/infrareds at 1024x1024 and the blue/greens at 512x512 simply because most of the detail can be found in the most prominent color. It's a way to reduce data transmissions requirements.

      In these cases where the green/blue images are 512x512 and red/infrared images are 1024x1024, the correct procedure is to scale up the respective green image/blue images to 1024x1024 and superimpose with either the red or infrared.

      It's also why most consumer digital camera CCD's usually have two green pixels for every red pixel / every blue pixel. Green is the brightest color of the three primary colors, and thus more important to get the best resolution from green than from blue or red.

      It's also the same sort of principle that Luma information on DVD is 720 pixels wide (black and white information) while chroma information is only 360 pixels wide (color information). Also, you Microsoft DirectShow programmers will understand this well -- with YUY2 and YVYU frame buffers, where you notice the luma (mono info) is double the resolution of a chroma component (color info - either the U component or the V component). For this, U corresponds to Pr and V corresponds to Pb in a Component color connection (Y Pr Pb).

      Mark Rejhon

  53. Re:Dont trust this man, he's part of the conspirac by FraggedSquid · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Red-Eye Reduction setting doesn't work on Martians then.

    --
    You don't need a lab to make mud.
  54. Real reason - greens are being hidden by shrewtamer · · Score: 1

    The real reason of course is much more obvious. The greens in the picture are being filtered out. This is to obscure the algae that they are finding. The full picture won't ever come to light but we may know more once Bush has decided whether the algae are intelligent or not, how well armed they are, whether he should buy / sell arms to them, before / after launching an attack of his own. Learning from the Iraq war he is avoiding the "I told you so" phenomena. Please join me in sending a note to the whitehouse apealing: THE ALGAE ON MARS HAVE NO WMDs. Why did that other US probe crash again?

  55. The Blue Skies of Earth by NickFusion · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not to do anything crazy like bring the artcle into the conversation, but the uncalibrated RGB raw data that the mars rover sends back, and the methods used to color correct it reminds me of this:

    The Russian Record

    This brilliant Russian photographer in the late 1800s/early 1900s took an amazing number of photographs, and he would photograph everything three times, with a red, blue and green filter.

    He would then use a special triple projector with the appropriate color filters to show gorgeous color images, long before the invention of color film.

    So today, we can put these images back together in Photoshop, but we have the same Mars problem, we have three color channels, but no clear idea how they relate to each other.

    Lacking a color-calibration sundial, we have to rely on our knowledge of skin tone, sky color, etc to tweak these colors. The link above has a link to the raw files in the Library of Congress, for geeks who want to recomposite some of their own.

    --
    What were you expecting?
  56. The L4 Filter!!! by daina · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Ack! All of this arguing all over the Internet, endless postings and emails to NASA and nobody is asking (or answering) the single relevant question:

    Why isn't the Spirit team using the L4 filter?

    The L4 filter passes light at 600nm, right on the red channel for RGB. Combine that with L5 + L6 and we have a perfect RGB channel image to end all this bickering.

    Yes, it would be a narrower frequency band and less scientifically interesting because of the lack of sensitivity in the near infrared. Yes it would be affected by colour absorption in the martian atmosphere. Yes it would be an RGB channel image rather than a true human visual image (no digital image can be). But it would be the closest thing to the kind of snapshot a human standing on mars with a digital camera would take. It would be something we could all relate to directly.

    I thought that the whole idea with Spirit was to make it anthropomorphic: binocular vision, 1.5 metres tall, mobile, etc. So why not do a couple of panoramas in RGB? Why not look around before launching into the science?

    In fact, Spirit has taken a couple of images with L4, but mainly for calibration against the sundial or as part of a test rotation through all filters. Almost all of the component images for the panoramas are taken with L2, L5 & L6, resulting in the present confusion when these are mapped back into an RGB image. So we know the L4 filter works.

  57. Re:I'm confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    except Hobbiton + Mount Doom (in fact the whole of the LOTR trilogy) were all shot in New Zealand, which while being close-ish to Australia, is a fair way from being in the Australian Outback.

    But then again, wasnt there a stat that something like 85% of people from the USA couldn't locate Canada on a world map? so this doesnt really surprise me.

  58. They couldn't send back exposure information? by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    I mean, they spent a lot of money on that camera, it seems a piddly thing to leave out of it and the comm protocol for sending the pictures.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  59. Keith Laney's a moron. by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    You can't just combine grayscale images from the L2, L3 and L5 filters to get a color in between ("true" red).

    They have widely varying response curves all over the visible spectrum. Combining them all will make a huge, lumpy response curve centered somewhere around the red visible, but emcompassing and emphasizing frequencies well outside it!!! It will be completely unrepresentative of what the eye would see on Mars. The same goes for all the other simple mixing he's doing, adulterating the other bands.

    The filter response for L1-8 are NOT notch filters people, they have defined curves. Two of the filters are specifically wide band responses as well. And the human visual response curves are equally important.

    No, what he SHOULD have done is essentially what Nasa did, which is to solve a minimization problem matching up weighted averages response curves from the available filters to the red/green/blue response of the human eye, and taking the combination with least squared error.

    But apparently he was too simple-minded to realize this. And also that NASA saturated all of their pictures on tranmission to reduce error (and the exposure settings are nowhere to be found), so you have even less information to go on.

    He just kept the combinations he "liked", method be damned. Nasa did the same thing for the press. His colors are not "correct" and your arguments hold no water (oh, I'm sorry, MUD) if you cite him as authority.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:Keith Laney's a moron. by pla · · Score: 1

      You can't just combine grayscale images from the L2, L3 and L5 filters to get a color in between ("true" red).

      For dealing with an emission spectra for a homogenous substance, true, you can't just average 670 and 600 to get 635. True enough.

      For most "real world" reflectively-illuminated objects, composed of a wide variety of different substances, yes, you can. Granted, you'll have gaussian rather than linearly-tapering peaks, but you can get "close enough".


      The filter response for L1-8 are NOT notch filters people, they have defined curves. Two of the filters are specifically wide band responses as well. And the human visual response curves are equally important.

      Yes, they effectively are. Check out Jim Bell's own (you know, the guy who's email appears at the link in this thread's parent) report on the Spirit Rover's panoramic camera (warning, PDF), specifically, figure 6 (page 82)... A nice graph of the pancam's sensitivity to various frequencies through each filter shows very good bandpass transmittance (the project explicitly spec'd 85% in-band, IIRC), with incredibly sharp tapering (less than one bandwidth away) for all except L1, R1, L7, and R7. And of those four, only L1 (no filter) has what you could call a wideband response, the other three just favor an ultra-sharp cutoff at their target frequency, at the expense of a slightly more broad tail in the opposite direction.


      No, what he SHOULD have done is essentially what Nasa did, which is to solve a minimization problem matching up weighted averages response curves from the available filters to the red/green/blue response of the human eye, and taking the combination with least squared error.

      You know, I agree with you, and have spent the past two days producing a program to do exactly that. However, NASA also should have done that, yet did not (despite your assertion) - They simply mixed L2 (or sometimes L4, yet oddly not L3, the obvious closest match to 650nm), L5, and L6. And, from my preliminary results, I'd say that Laney's results look pretty damned good... I can't tell them from what I get from a full 7-onto-3 channel convolution (though my SO can... I'll admit I don't have the best color vision in the world, but I can certainly tell green from brownish-orange).


      And also that NASA saturated all of their pictures on tranmission to reduce error (and the exposure settings are nowhere to be found), so you have even less information to go on.

      True - With one exception. Any image showing the calibration target has a peak norm equal to white, as well as 4+ independant channel verifications of those values. Thus, my accusation of scientific dishonesty for NASA cropping out that very target.

  60. I see a ridge line of soft soil (dunes?) by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

    divided into parallel channels by a strong surface wind. It's fairly evident by the even spacing that the formation has a uniform density. I believe the prevailing flow is SW to NE (assuming up is "north") because of a small, secondary ridge of accumulated material on the NE side of the formation. As wind blows particles from the slopes of the channel and down the backside, some is desposited and builds up upon itself on the plateau behind it.

    You can tell its wind-based by the similar bottom-left to top-right streaks all over the landscape.

    Very cool, but definitely not organic. You would see this kind of thing at the beach if we have hurricane force winds all the time.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:I see a ridge line of soft soil (dunes?) by pla · · Score: 1

      You can tell its wind-based by the similar bottom-left to top-right streaks all over the landscape.
      Very cool, but definitely not organic. You would see this kind of thing at the beach if we have hurricane force winds all the time.


      Ah, many thanks, and I mean that sincerely. You've just provided the single most informative response to a Slashdot comment I've seen this month.

      Alas, having already posted in this thread, I can't mod you up, but, have a token +1 anyway. :-)

  61. That guy's website... by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    makes me think all kinds of credible.

    No wait, it looks like a hack-job whacko's website!
    Not the first time I've seen it pushed here.

    If detailed analysis means he would take each raw exposure image of the "machinery" and, considering the response curves, building a likelyhood estimate model of the chemical composition due to reflectivity across various bands, and produce a list of likely material compositions...

    Oh wait, he's making speculations based on what it "looks like" from a grainy photo?

    Give me a fucking break. I have a paperweight that kinda looks like Jesus when the sun is setting. Interested?

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  62. Just one problem,... by xiphos · · Score: 1

    if the colors are less red because of white-balance/normalization issues as suggested by contrast differences between images with pure white vs. images without:
    1) the images with white, like the cleaner airbags, would show the planet as it should, as each filter would contain the same normalization calibration from the presence of white light. Images pieced together with the raw data do NOT match the press-released images in these instances.

    2) The sky in the images reconstructed from raw data should show up as almost perfectly white. In most all instances, it does not. It appears quite cyan to light blue.

    I'd rather believe the guys at NASA honestly believe they are providing the press with what they believe are the correct colors, and are simply clueless when it comes to photography. Great engineers and scientists they may be, but photographers they are not.

    --
    Xiphos
  63. Re:I'm confused... by kalayl · · Score: 1

    But then again we both know that those shots actually don't look anything like the Australian outback either, do they? So the next time you decide to be a wise-ass remember to suspend your disbelief and bear in mind that sometimes some people just try to be a little light-hearted rather than acting like snotty little teenagers suffering from existential angst and on a mission to show the world how clever they are.

  64. You totally failed to understand the article... by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

    "Blue" does not appear "pink" on mars. The *CHEMICAL* they used to make the "blue" chip is "blue" to human eyes in normal lighting conditions because it reflects "a lot of the light in the blue part of the spectrum". The *CHEMICAL* is also "very bright" in the "near infra-red" which is *outside* the range of normal human vision. (Hence "infra-red" and not just "red" 8-).

    The scientists are interested in the near infra-red, and infra-red is way on the other end of the spectrum from blue.

    So they used the filter/sensor that is responsible for "seeing" the color red and widened it to see "near infra-red". Since all that data comes back as "the red part of the picture" and the piece of plastic "looks pink" because there is a lot of signal in the "red part".

    Keep in mind that you cant see "near infra-red" and neither can the NASA guys, and you monitor couldn't display it anyway so your dog would not be able to see it if you held him up in front of your monitor.

    The very fact that the "blue chip" looks "pink" in the pictures IS DATA because if the martian atmosphere was filtering more infra-red the chip would look more bluish because there would be less signal on the red channel. Similarly if the martian atmosphere were blocking the blue spectrum more, then the chip would look more red and less pink. (and so forth...)

    The ENTIRE POINT of the mars dial is that they can take the duplicate equipment here and put it in a room and vary the conditions until they duplicate the various signal levels. (Hence "calibrate" and its orthogonal concept.) Of course, since they know the exact traits of the chips and of the filters, they don't actually have to set up the room and do the test, they can just look at the numbers and do the math.

    For the "very slow" among us; consider those nice "X-Ray Pictures" from the Hubble (and such). They are nice color pictures, but X-Rays don't have color. The scientific value comes from knowing what signal values represent what measurable scientific values. If the X-Ray pictures were photo-realistic in the visible spectrum they would just be black squares, which wouldn't help anybody know anything.

    As for the "green question" green == green for whatever value of "green" the "green filter" is using. Since the near-green colors are all still in the visible spectrum, there is likely no value for them to have used any non-standard filters. Then again, they might have a whole filter set ready to show fractionals of the green spectrum as a full-color shot (just like the X-Ray pictures.)

    This "Green" question was the whole point of that one photo-shopped earth-taken (mostly orange) picture of the smoke and fire. If you use your tools to "color correct" an image of a very narrow -colored image it can make details much more clear, but you get "blue flames" and such. Doing that after the fact sucks compared to actually changing the filters in the camera at the time of collection. When you do the photo-shop thing you are strengthing the weak signals. When you change your filters you are picking up more detail where you want or need to see it.

    The fact that these data are then rendered visibly should surprise nobody.

    It's just the jackasses that don't understand the difference between "visual representations of significant data" and "vacation snapshot" have decided to manufacture a tinfoil-hat issue for us to enjoy at our leasure.

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  65. Good Explanation, but... by DrMorpheus · · Score: 1
    I have to take issue with your claim that "X-Rays have no color". Strickly speaking, color is just our cognitive perception of a particular region of the EM radiation. If human eyes could register X-ray radiation as well then yes, objects that differentially reflected x-ray radiation would have a particular color.

    Sorry about the hair-splitting, but this is Slashdot... ;-)

    --
    Debunking the "59 Deceits"
  66. Stupid, stupid Sagan quote!!! by DrMorpheus · · Score: 1
    Extraordiary claims require extraordinary proof.
    AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!! NO THEY DON'T!! This is the most anti-scientific piece of tripe that Sagan has ever said!

    The hallmark of science is measurement, how f*ck do you measure "extraordinariness"?

    Is claim X 2x more "extraordinary" than claim Y, or the other way around. What's the SI units for this quality?

    STOP REPEATING THIS BULLSH*T!

    BTW, I'm in no way saying that the parent poster is correct in believing those sand dunes are organic, but please drop this anti-scientific quote from your repertoire!

    --
    Debunking the "59 Deceits"
  67. moo? by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

    Lets see, color is just our cognitive perception of a particular region of the EM and If human eyes could register X-ray radiation...

    So lets see, you admit that human eyes cannot register X-ray radiation, so they cannot cognitively preceive X-rays, and you understand that color is our cognitive perception, but you conclude that X-rays *DO* have color anyway..?

    OK, X-rays have color, but in the exact same sense that cows would fly if they were a lot lighter and, um, had wings... 8-)

    Simply put, X-rays exist across a section of the EM spectrum, so they may vary in frequency. Saying that in turns gives them the trait of "color" is sloppy and unhelpful.

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  68. A Final Picture by Alien54 · · Score: 1

    we have this picture of the rover platform as seen from earth and on mars. with a distinct color shift noted.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"