Linux Now Booted On GameCube System

You know... by Bagels · 2004-01-24 05:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

it sounds kind of stupid, but has anyone actually just plain *asked* Nintendo what their stance on alternative OSes on the Cube is? They'd probably prefer a "proper" method to the PSO exploit, which can also be used to run bootleg games... and their past actions haven't struck me as quite so draconian as those of, say, Microsoft.

That said, of course, if they revealed the information required to burn Linux discs, it wouldn't be long before someone used the technique to burn bootlegs :( .

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Re:You know... by Cecil · 2004-01-24 06:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

Nintendo does indeed have a better reputation than Microsoft, but it's not any more deserved. While I love Nintendo, and even owned an N64 and a Virtual Boy :P I don't have any illusions about them being an exceptionally friendly company, especially when it comes to anything which could be twisted into a piracy concern.

It was their staunch refusal to touch CDs (because they were easily copied) that lost them SquareSoft as a developer to Sony, and the N64's anemic cartrige space nearly dragged them out of the mainstream gaming market.

They were, and still are, well known as one of the most litigous companies when it comes to emulators and ROMs. They crack down the hardest on manufacturers of ROM copier devices.

And you expect this company to give you access to the system's internals? Not likely. Look at Sony's PlayStation Linux. It runs on a layer so that you aren't allowed to touch the PlayStation hardware directly. Console makers consider that kind of stuff extremely proprietary.

Basically, Nintendo has this illusionary image that they are a good, consumer-friendly company. And they are that for the most part. Even still, they're mostly just a company like any other -- if you get in their way, they will not hesistate for a second before coming down on you like a ton of bricks.

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Re:You know... by xenocide2 · 2004-01-24 09:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

They are the most litigious in the realm of emulation and ROMs but they also have the most to lose. Sony's playstation hardly has a history to build on (note that sony has also pursued emulators to court, something that Nintendo hasn't if I recall correctly). Microsoft hasn't had any problems since they have no history at all. Emulation cuts into remarketing concepts and games already built.

That Nintendo just won't let us have games for free is sucky, but their entire empire was built on survival. Their refusal to enter the CD realm was partially based on a lack of expertise, and a lack of expensive facilities. Sony already had plenty of CD based factories, but Nintendo was still in the chip market. CD piracy was of course another consideration, one that ultimately came back to bite Sony in the butt as personal cd burners came to market.

Sega has probably been the most emu friendly, but thats not exactly an endorsement. As I recall, they settled their suit against a popular Genesis emulation by building Sega PC Sonic fun packs that are built on the author's emulation technology. And then the saturn has just been too rare (and large) and unheard of for emulation, let alone market exploitation. Though Sega has been releasing some other games for GBA as a sega classics, and the sonic mega collection on gamecube.

So no illusions, just know that Nintendo works with the strategy that's worked for them -- conservative decisions. They spend a good deal of R&D money, but they do exercise caution in what they release, and how they move. Of the Big 3, Nintendo has the smallest bankroll. On the other hand they're also the most game dedicated. They're the least likely to pull out if things are looking down. At some point Microsoft's due dilligence will have to examine the XBox situation (at which point heads would roll if they hadn't already all left the company (interesting sign)).

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Re:You know... by Kethinov · 2004-01-24 09:30 · Score: 3, Informative

It was their staunch refusal to touch CDs (because they were easily copied) that lost them SquareSoft as a developer to Sony, and the N64's anemic cartrige space nearly dragged them out of the mainstream gaming market.

They were, and still are, well known as one of the most litigous companies when it comes to emulators and ROMs. They crack down the hardest on manufacturers of ROM copier devices.
Funny thing is, this approach flopped on N64 and Nintendos all before it. Search Kazaa for Playstation ISOs and how many do you find, not many. Search Kazaa for N64 dumps, SNES dumps, NES dumps, how many do you find? Tons. Reason? You can make dumps of N64, SNES, and NES catridges that don't get much bigger than 128mb depending on what method you use to dump the data. But CD images are always ~700MB; though some of my Playstation CD images are as small as 300mb, while Final Fantasies are something around ~780mb. My recent rip of Final Fantasy X clocked at 4.19gb.

Nintendo finally (unfortunately) realized that more data storage = pirate unfriendly with the Gamecube, even though those mini DVDs are still loads smaller in filesize than the PS2 disks. But it's their copy protection (burn/read from outside to in, among other theories) that has really stumped emulation enthusiasts like myself. To my knowledge, only a small group of people have figured out how to rip a GC disk, and they're not sharing how. Developers of the Dolphin emu probably know how to do it as well.

Actually, the only (public) method I know of that actually works is using the same exploit as is being used to create this GC Linux. You can supposedly make an ISO of any GC disk by exploiting the update process in Phantasy Star Online, though I wouldn't bother with such a backwards-ass method. I'd rather just tweak a DVD ROM to be able to read and make ISOs of the disks. In any event, PS2 and GC have both been out for just about the same amount of time, and PS2 emulation is lightyears ahead of GC. Nintendo's anti-piracy efforts are so good this time that people even have a hard time getting Linux, which supposedly "runs on anything", to run on one ;)

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Re:You know... by NanoGator · 2004-01-24 12:45 · Score: 4, Interesting

"It was their staunch refusal to touch CDs (because they were easily copied)"

That particular detail is not entirely true. (Though what I'm about to say does not, in any way, defeat your point about Square.)

Nintendo was quite happy to go to CD, see the Super NES CD that didn't quite make it. But that was a peripheral. With a mainstream system, like the N64, CD-ROMs were not so interesting to Nintendo.

* The drive mechanisms were expensive. The money saved by using cartridges went towards more powerful processing. (note: The N64 came out for $200 instead of $300 like the PS launch.)

* The media is easily damaged. Cartridges are much harder for kids to break.

* Nintendo would have a hard time controlling who made what for the system. (Look up Nintendo's tiffles with Tengen and Atari for more info on that.)

* Access times are slow causing interruptions in any given game. Above all else, it's a game machine, not a wait machine.

* Cartridges make a lot more money for Nintendo.

As I mentioned before, this does not interfere with your point about Square. However, arguably, Square was being rather whiney about it. The reason why they wanted CD media was so they could use CG rendered full motion video in places. Really, it wasn't that necessary. (Yes, I've played the game.) It was a luxury they demanded, instead of a limitation they could have overcomed. As a result, Square made their decision, and found themselves crawling back in Nintendo's direction.

I will say this, though: Square made the right choice. I don't like Sony, I wasn't a fan of the PS, but I do think Square did the right thing. Sadly, they severely damaged their relations with Nintendo. They're slowly patching it up, but we as gamers have been hurt by it.

"Basically, Nintendo has this illusionary image that they are a good, consumer-friendly company."

Believe it or not, they are. Sadly, a company their size often finds themselves in a position where they have to make tough decisions. Everybody has their opinion, that's something Nintendo has no control over.

"if you get in their way, they will not hesistate for a second before coming down on you like a ton of bricks."

I don't think that's a fair statement. In a sense, it's true. However, there are a few missing words in that phrase. Believe it or not, they do think before they act. They do act swiftly, though.

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Re:You know... by edwdig · 2004-01-24 18:54 · Score: 3, Interesting

But it's their copy protection (burn/read from outside to in, among other theories) that has really stumped emulation enthusiasts like myself.

The idea of the data starting on the outside and working in has been tossed around a lot, but no one has really tried to test it.

What has been proven to be the main factor in the copy protection is the barcode around the inside of the disc. The barcode is found near the center of the disc, just a little further in than the data. The barcode can't be burned onto a disc - it must be put in during manufacturing. You need to use a microscope to make out the bars, but if you're magnifying it enough to distinguish them, you won't be able to see anything but the bars, leaving you no frame of reference, making it impossible to map the bars.

To my knowledge, only a small group of people have figured out how to rip a GC disk, and they're not sharing how. Developers of the Dolphin emu probably know how to do it as well.

It's simple to rip a GC disk. Load a program using the PSO exploit. Write code to read from the DVD and send the data over the network. Code for all of that is readily available.

Re:Forgive my ignorance... by kenthorvath · 2004-01-24 05:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

So you can develop your own games without having to pay any licensing fees...

Re:questionable lagality? by Acidic_Diarrhea · 2004-01-24 06:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

Given that this hack doesn't require that any copy protection be circumvented, as far as I can tell, it shouldn't be the case that the DMCA is being violated. Therefore, I would say that something like the original Game Genie court case could be used in citing case law where running code not endorsed by Nintendo is proven to be legal - and in that case it involved a company trying to make a profit, here we've just got hobbyists trying to do something interesting and not looking to make a buck.

Nintendo can put whatever they want into the EULA but it doesn't mean that their statements will hold up in court. I don't have my EULA that came with my Gamecube available to me so I can't check it over and I haven't been able to find a copy online so maybe someone can quote theirs - but, I think that even if Nintendo makes statements regarding this type of operation, it wouldn't hold up in court.

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because it's fun by cheezus · 2004-01-24 06:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm sure making linux run on strange hardware is fun and educational.

Why run a smb3 on a nes emulator inside of a ps1 emulator inside a pc emulator inside a virtual machine on a mac?

Geeks are just weird like that. I think it's cool.

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I agree and disagree by cheezus · 2004-01-24 06:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

I too think it's cool that hobbyists are hacking consumer electronics.

But, c'mon. Neither you nor I will ever actually run linux on our gamecubes.

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Re:Forgive my ignorance... by EdMack · 2004-01-24 06:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

So that it can run as a light X terminal, and do some processing too. All gamecubes are connected to TVs, so its a nice easy way to watch your media collection there. Also you could view news headlines, browse email, ect.. Anyway, its nice to run the OS you like on the console you like :) (If true for you)

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Re:Forgive my ignorance... by RevAaron · 2004-01-24 06:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

But why would you want to run Linux on the Cube when it has no high-capacity storage (i.e., hard drive)?

Perhaps I shouldn't be the one to answer- I can't see any compelling reason for running Linux on the Gamecube, even considering my answer. *shrug*

There's no reason someone porting Linux to the GC, or someone interested in using the port, couldn't add a hard drive or a more regular media drive to the GC through one of the high-speed ports on the bottom of the GC.

For me, the only useful reason to have Linux running on the GC wouldn't even require a HD. That is, it might make a nice cheap cluster machine. A pretty fast 485 MHz PowerPC chip, fast bus, etc for only $99 new, possibly less in bulk. And small. You could buy 20 of these, use the optional official ethernet card (or something home brewed, fiber?) and have a zippy cluster that isn't all that big.

Even then, it doesn't seem that worthit. But whatever, I'm not the one doing the port. :)

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I disagree by sadler121 · 2004-01-24 06:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

The Gamecube is extremly cheap and once the team is able to get a working Linux OS on the Cube, there will be many applications for such a device. (Many have been mentioned aboove, like thin client, low end web server, etc).

Re:Forgive my ignorance... by noselasd · 2004-01-24 06:54 · Score: 2, Informative

For fun ?

In other news... by -kertrats- · 2004-01-24 07:02 · Score: 3, Funny

GamecubeOS has reportedly been booted on a pc.

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Re:questionable lagality? by Scarblac · 2004-01-24 07:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

That's too bad for them. It's an object, a piece of hardware. You bought it. It's yours. You know, your property, not licensed or anything. Opening a box you own does not make you automatically agree to anything...

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Re:questionable lagality? by zulux · 2004-01-24 07:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

Microsoft said so. When you open the box your xbox comes in you agree to a EULA which states you can't alter the hardware which is required to boot linux.

I say so. When my XBOX connects to my internal network, Microsoft agress to an EULA/TOS which stats that I can alter the hardware which is required to boot.

HINT: EULA's after a sales transaction have never been held by the courts to be enforcable (except for for case of limits of liability.)

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Dumb by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-24 10:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

Sellers have the right to place conditions on the use of items sold, and buyers have the right to take their business elsewhere if they don't like it.

Furthermore, owning something does not give you the right to break the law. Rightfully owning a knife does not give you warrant to stab someone. Whether you like it or not, the DMCA *is law*... and under it, reverse engineering "your property" *is illegal*. No matter what you claim to have not agreed to.

NetBSD on Dreamcast by mnmn · 2004-01-24 11:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

A new stock dreamcast can be bought for $99 from dealers who still carry it. Running Linux or BSD on any game console is cool and dramatically increases its usefulness. It also brings a good OS on good hardware for much cheaper than an eMachines computer.

Does anyone know the current prices of a gamecube? Does anyone know if linux or BSD can be run on the first playstation (which is cheaper than dreamcast?).

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Linux on GBA or DS by sofakingl · 2004-01-24 12:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is cool, but I'd rather see Linux on the GBA, or maybe even the DS. A Linux distro on a portable system would be quite useful for those of us who want to have a makeshift PDA. Concidering the DS uses rewritable media, I think it could be done.

Theres a reason they can't make the DVD's by Fearghaill · 2004-01-24 12:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

In one of the more beautifully simplistic bits of copy-protection I've ever seen, Gamecube discs spin opposite to standard DVD/CD playing devices.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are a lot of reverse-direction DVD burners floating around.

Re:Theres a reason they can't make the DVD's by Jawju · 2004-01-24 12:57 · Score: 4, Informative

The GC discs spin the same way as other CD/DVDs (clockwise). However, they read from the outside towards the inside (I believe the XBox does the same). This allows faster bootups and so on. I think the problem with copying is getting your hands on the 8cm discs. You can get blank ones if you own a GC dev kit, but good luck getting them on ebay ;)
Re:Theres a reason they can't make the DVD's by WWWWolf · 2004-01-25 12:56 · Score: 2, Funny

Well, I have a GameCube, and every time I power it down and open the lid, the disc is spinning clockwise...
There have been some seriously tricky rumors about the contents of the disk. What is so far known is that the media is normal 8mm DVD - burnable blanks are available, just rarely and costly. (No idea if the GC drive can read burned discs anyway - as everyone knows some optical drives can only read factory-pressed CDs/DVDs...)

Yet, the disc is not in standard DVD format. And the problem is, the DVD-ROM drives are probably too smart to read disks blindly and just tell what's the situation on some specific spot on the disc surface.

Sort of like the "copy-protected" CDs. The discs are not in standard Redbook format, so "dumb" CD players can read them almost (and barely) without problems, because they essentially do "The groove starts here, read the pits at constant speed from here on and make some noise". The "smart" CD-ROM drives can't read the discs because they're intentionally confused by the bogus data on CD - "Read the disc table of contents to determine track location... what the hell?" or "The disc says this, the error-correction data says that, uh, don't blame me if you're getting a headache from all this, boss". (Nintendo's case is different from broken CDs because this stuff is a comprehensive design from ground up, of course... it just happens to use mini-DVD discs and drive mechanism, not the standard disc layout.)

So obviously, you can't rip the GC discs if your DVD-ROM drive won't even recognize it as a DVD-ROM! I read somewhere people were using really contrived means to examine the disc data, like hooking up an oscilloscope to GameCube disc drive data lines...

Some speculate that there are features on the disc that are absolutely impossible to replicate on consumer DVD+-RW drives. For example, some think the barcode visible on inner part of the disc is relevant to booting the disc, and burning features that are visible to naked eye might be mighty tricky...

And I'm not a GC technical expert, I've only had the machine for less than a month and I've read only a couple of articles on the matter anyway. Hope this helps.

BogoMIPS...? by PipianJ · 2004-01-24 13:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

From the screenshots... The GameCube only runs 484.96 BogoMIPS? Sounds pretty reasonable considering the speed of the chip...

Re:perepherals and whatnot... by Psykechan · 2004-01-24 18:32 · Score: 2, Informative

Nintendo has broadband (Ethernet) adapters for sale here at their online store. They don't have them listed as backordered like some of their other items so they should be in stock.

For anyone who is thinking that the GC is useless running Linux without a hard drive, I would like to point out the SD flash RAM adapter and Mini DVD-R discs. While these aren't necessarily supported by the project at the moment, it's not too big of a stretch to imagine that they may be.

Re:Forgive my ignorance... by edwdig · 2004-01-24 19:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why would you use Linux to develop a GameCube game?

All you'd get is a lot of unnecessary overhead. The hardware is designed to be incredibly simple to program. You don't have to deal with things like IDE to read from the DVD. To read from the DVD, you put a pointer to your memory buffer in one register. Put the write command into another register. There's a third register to check for status (finished, in progresses, error, etc). That's it. Adding the Linux kernel in there won't make it any easier.

Since the discs are read-only, the filesystem becomes much simplier. IIRC, fragmented files are not supported. So really the filesystem isn't much more than a table with each entry containing a name, a start location, and a size. Doesn't take long to write code for that.

The networking code is the only part of the kernel that's really useful on the GameCube. But rather than include an entire operating system, you're probably better off simply taking the networking code out of one of the BSD's and including it directly into your project.

If you're doing small homebrew projects, a full OS is way overkill for your game. If you're intending on making a commercial game, your choices are license the game with Nintendo, or have your own DVD manufacturing plant and reverse engineer the barcode & any other copy protection mechanisms on the discs. If you have the money to have a DVD manufacturing plant, then you can easily afford to pay Nintendo the licensing fees.

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Linux Now Booted On GameCube System

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