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The 2.7 Kernel: Back To The Future For Linux

Anonymous Coward writes "Now that the Linux 2.6 kernel has been released and is being worked into distributions, many in the open-source community are turning their attention to the next development and test kernel, known as the 2.7 tree. To get an early glimpse at some of the thinking going into the next kernel, key vendors that aid in shaping the Linux kernel helped eWEEK last week put together a long-range wish list for 2.7."

26 of 437 comments (clear)

  1. So... by }InFuZeD{ · · Score: 4, Funny

    I go to read about the 2.7 Linux Kernel and I get an advertisement telling me that Linux costs 11%-22% more on average in 4 out of 5 workload scenarios... I immediately lost interest in the 2.7 kernel and just got angry at Microsoft.

    So that is their plan... the whole Yoda "hate blinds" plot... darn they're good.

  2. Let's hope by iminplaya · · Score: 5, Funny

    that they remove all the SCO code this time. Maybe then it will fit on a floppy again.

    --
    What?
  3. move along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is nothing specific about anything. What a useless article. You can say you want a milkshake with your 2.7 kernel and it be just as valid as the things mentioned.

    1. Re:move along by ocie · · Score: 4, Funny

      Customer: I'll have a shake, and 4 mallocs.
      Clerk: do you want any frees with that?
      Customer: No thanks.
      Cllerk: OK, but you'll be sorry.

      --
      JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
  4. What would be a great "desktop focus" by BizDiz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is just great driver compatability. That seems like the primary hurdle that can really keep people out, as well as a large area that is easily neglected in a more server-oriented mindset (especially in terms of user peripherals).

    1. Re:What would be a great "desktop focus" by Cthefuture · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I want to second this opinion. One of my major problem areas with Linux has been the drivers or lack of.

      I know the die-hards will nay-say this, but being able to use native Windows drivers would be absolutely great. Now, maybe you don't use MPlayer (and the other "native" driver apps) but there are a hell of a lot of us that do and love it. The same thing should be done for all drivers. Video, USB, firewire, PCI, whatever... Make it so we can use Windows drivers in Linux because there are way too many half-assed reverse engineered Linux drivers that just don't work right. I mean, when in the hell will my Wacom Intuos2 tablet finally work correctly?! (I this is not just a kernel problem but XFree too) Yes, yes, I know about those patches here and there, but try to get them to work with XFree 4.3 and kernel 2.6... Ain't gonna happen. Just let me use the Windows drivers please.

      I don't give a crap about some utopian vison of Linux greatness because all manufacturers support Linux. It isn't happening any time soon and I have real work to do.

      With that said, my #1 greatist wish for 2.7/8 would be to get the damn SBP2 Firewire drivers working correctly. Dammit, that thing has been broken since it was introduced. Nearly every time I boot my system I have to plug and unplug the firewire cable (sometimes several times) to get the devices reset and loaded properly so I can access them (I'm using kernel 2.6, but has always been broken like this). The read/write/timeout errors have gotten better but they still occur with large drives. I'm absolutely terrified that one day I'll have to fschk my 90 GB partition on my firewire drive again. The last couple times I had to do that it toasted the partition every time (I/O errors and timeouts).

      --
      The ratio of people to cake is too big
    2. Re:What would be a great "desktop focus" by Cthefuture · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For one, I believe that much of the Windows driver API is an industry secret.

      Nah, get a MSDN subscription (or just the DDK). Not everyone that writes drivers works for Microsoft. The device developers kit contains everything you need to know.

      Second, people won't write Linux drivers anymore, and requests for native drivers will be responded with "You can just use the Windows drivers!"

      Frankly, I don't see a problem with that. If it works, it works. You're still running Linux. When enough people start using Linux then they can create real native Linux drivers. It will happen, given enough time. You can't just expect a company to drop everything to support some niche market where they won't make money or will lose money. We need a bridge, even if only temporarily.

      Third, Linux and Windows have very different driver models, meaning incompatibility and having to code it in bug-for-bug.

      Bah, there are so many crappy, incomplete, or just plain missing Linux drivers. Something is better than nothing. I have not noticed any superiority of any Linux driver over its Windows conterpart. The nVidia drivers are sometimes a bit faster in Linux but guess what? Those are made by the manufacturer not some wannabe college student Linux programmer. Not all the time, but very often the best software is a result of someone getting paid to write it. It works because they simply must finish it or they will get fired (or not payed). Plus generally the management listens to the customers (the users), and stuff gets done (enhanced or fixed) because money is at stake.

      Plus, how can you ensure that the Windows drivers won't trample over the Linux ones, or are you going to isolate them, reducing their effectiveness?

      It's just code. It's not that terribly complicated except for the undocumented Microsoft crap, but believe it or not, drivers have well defined interfaces. That's how all those 3rd parties create Windows drivers in the first place.

      However, an operating system kernel is not the place for untrusted code that depends on a lot of stuff working at the right time.

      Um... whatever, you want to eliminate all binary drivers? Sorry, but that isn't going to happen. Linux will always be behind if it doesn't allow binary drivers. Companies have to make a living.

      --
      The ratio of people to cake is too big
    3. Re:What would be a great "desktop focus" by John+Hurliman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To provide an example of a superior driver in Linux, my D-Link DWL-650 (Intersil firmware). In Windows, with both the Microsoft and all versions of the D-Link driver I get frequent disconnects, I have to unplug and plug the card in sometimes several times to get a connection in the first place, CPU usage spikes severely when the connection is being made. In Linux I pop the card in, it blinks three times and I have a signal that doesn't drop until I move out of range. How about USB mice? In Windows I patiently wait while the hard drive grinds away and the system tray informs me I've plugged a mouse in, eventually letting me use it. In X11 it works no more than three seconds after plugging it in with no CPU spike. What about those horrible HP all-in-one drivers in Windows that are half driver and half system tray program, and a couple more processes in the system tray that are anyone's guess as to what their purpose is. The drivers have been released and re-released for months and months, every time fixing a nice bug like "prevents USB from randomly disconnecting" or "no longer floods the network with traffic" but yet it never gets to a point that doesn't make you want to throw it out the window. Unless you're running Linux, where CUPS handles it exactly like a printer should be handled, and the scanning is quick and efficient with SANE.

  5. Dear Linus, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I have always felt that Linux is a nice operating system (for hobbyists and
    geeks), but there are some areas where it is seriously lacking, especially when
    compared to its main competitor, Microsoft? Windows?.

    * File sharing. Windows has long been superior when it comes to making large
    amounts of files available to third parties. Even early versions of Windows
    automatically detected and made available all directories thanks to the built in
    NetBIOS-powered file sharing support. But Microsoft has realized that this
    technology is inherently limited and has added even better file sharing support
    to its Windows XP operating system. "Universal Plug an Play" [slashdot.org] will
    make it possible to literally access any file, from any device! I think
    universal file sharing support needs to be built into the Linux kernel soon.

    * Intelligent agents. With innovations like Clippy, the talking paperclip
    [dmu.ac.uk] and Microsoft Bob, Microsoft has always tried to make life easier
    for its customers. With Outlook and Outlook Express, Microsoft has built a
    framework for developers to create even smarter agents. Especially popular
    agents include "Sircam", which automatically asks the users' friends for advice
    on files he is working on and the "Hybris" agent, which is a self-replicating
    copy of a humorous take on "Snow-White and the Seven Dwarves" (the real story!).
    Microsoft is working on expanding this P2P technology to its web servers. This
    project is still in the beta stage, thus the name "Code Red". The next versions
    will be called "Code Yellow" and "Code Green".

    * Version numbers. Linux has real naming problems. What's the difference
    between a 2.4.19 and a 2.2.17 kernel anyway? And what's with those odd and even
    numbers? Microsoft has always had clear and sophisticated naming/versioning
    policies. For example, Windows 95 was named Windows 95 because it was released
    in 1995. Windows 98 was released three years later, and so on. Windows XP
    brought a whole new "experience" to the user, therefore the name. I suggest that
    the next Linux kernel releases be called Linux 03, Linux 04, Linux 04.5 (OSR1),
    Linux 04.7B (OSR2 SP4 OEM), Linux 2005 and Linux VD (Valentine's Day edition).
    Furthermore, remember how Microsoft named every upcoming version of Windows
    after some Egyptian city? Cairo, Chicago and so on. I think that the development
    kernels should be named after Spanish cities to celebrate Linux' Spanish
    origins. Linux Milano or Linux Rome anyone?

    * Multi-User Support. This has always been one of Microsoft's strong sides,
    especially in the Windows 95/98 variants, where passwords were completely
    unnecessary. Microsoft has made the right decision by not bothering the user
    with a distinction between "normal" and "root" users too much -- practice has
    shown that average users can be trusted to act responsibly and in full awareness
    of the potential consequences of their actions. After all, if your operating
    system doesn't trust you, why should you trust it? (To be fair, Linux is making
    some progress here with the Lindows [lindows.com] distribution, where users are
    always running as root.)

    With Windows XP, Microsoft has again improved multi-user support. Not only
    does Windows XP come with a large library of user pictures that are displayed on
    the login screen, such as a guitar and a flower, it also has "quick user
    change". This makes it possible to login as a different user with a simple
    keyboard shortcut, and the good news is: programs from the old user keep running
    in the background! Beat that, Linux!

    * Programmability. Microsoft has always been known for making computer
    machine power accessible to end users. The operating system comes with many
    helpful tools such as VBScript, a programming language especially useful for
    developing intelligent agents as mentioned above, and QBASIC, a truly innovative
    "hacker" tool that makes it pos

    1. Re:Dear Linus, by offpath3 · · Score: 4, Funny
      Linux VD

      I'd heard the GPL was viral, but this is taking it a little too far! =)

    2. Re:Dear Linus, by swillden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      how is it possible to change a user on x without logging out?!

      There are many ways, depending on exactly what you want to accomplish. I suspect the one you're talking about is "Start New Session" -- on KDE 3.2*, just click the "K" menu and pick "Start New Session".

      Using that plus vnc you can even make your X session relocatable -- again supported in point-and-click fashion out of the box by KDE 3.2 (called Desktop sharing). Wife is using the computer in the den? Just pull up your still-running desktop on the machine in the kitchen. Do that with XP!

      The coolest way, though, is this one. This guy dropped two video cards into his machine, hooked up two keyboards and mice and set things up so that both he and his girlfriend could use the machine at the same time. Granted, this isn't something that can be done out of the box (it requires running two different X servers, one patched), but it's a very cool hack.

      * I'm sure GNOME has similar features, since KDE isn't actually doing any of the multi-session heavy lifting, that's part of XFree86. KDE just puts a pretty interface on it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  6. List? How many items did anyone else see in it? by Eberlin · · Score: 5, Informative

    I saw something about clustering support. Not much of a list. There's gotta be more than that. "Focusing on the desktop" does not make a list...it's too vague. Any specifics?

    Then again, I suppose you're not going to get very specific on an e-week article.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all excited about 2.6 making the distros and then hearing about what awesome stuff they'll have on 2.7 -- but this article really just leaves me hanging.

  7. just some SATA support by ducman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    After a frustrating weekend trying to get a High Point SATA card working in my Linux server, I'm putting better SATA support on the top my my wish list!

    --
    "We have nothing in common, your attitude annoys me, and your political views are appalling."
    1. Re:just some SATA support by ender81b · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which brings up a good point for the 2.7 kernel. You might have better SATA support if they would actually freeze a kernel driver api.

      How about we stop politicizing the kernel and actualy make a stable Driver API? One that doesn't change with every point release of the kernel?

      I know that people want open source drivers but it's extremely hypocritical to complain about companies lack of support for linux then do absoultey *nothing* to help them out by changing the api every point release. Listen, besides some fanatics nobody cares about open source drivers. People would rather their stuff just work.

      I understand that, fundamentally, open source drivers are technically a better solution but there is no chance in hell of convincing Nvidia or any other company that has substantial IP and reserach in their drivers of publishing them open source. Same thing with Intel's Centrino drivers.

      Make a stable api darnit! :)

  8. One has to wonder by krammit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With so many people with their own agendas pushing and pulling at the kernel, and Linus being the steadfast leader he is, I can't help but think Linux may be headed for a fork in the not so distant future. Unless there is a way to make the kernel truly enterprise class as well as a responsive, low latency desktop system and a near real time embedded platform all at the same time.

    I'm amazed (in the good way) the kernel devs have made it as versatile as they have to this point. Hats off to them and here's to hoping they can keep it up.

    --
    "Watch your cornhole, bud."
    1. Re:One has to wonder by adrianbaugh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't see why the two are necessarily contradictory. After all, the bits to support enterprise class hardware can easily be omitted from compiling an embedded or desktop platform: if they can make a kernel with modular scheduler and tunable latency (which was the way it seemed to be heading with Con Kolivas' patch set) then the enterprise boys can increase the latency for minimum kernel CPU usage, the desktop people can knock it down for good responsiveness and the embedded folks can plug in an alternative scheduler to suit their own particular needs.

      --
      "'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
      - JRR Tolkien.
  9. So roll your own kernel by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 5, Informative
    Does it strike anyone else as strange that everyone keeps dreaming up more stuff to throw into the kernel? What happened to the unix philosophy of small, independent programs that do one thing well?

    That's still the idea. When they say "putting new stuff in the kernel," they really mean "new options that you *can* compile into the kernel." Don't like Ham radio support in your kernel? Don't compile it in. Same for multiprocessor support, or virtualization support, or whatever the hell they throw in that you happen not to want.

    That's the beauty. Now - you *are* compiling your own kernels, right? Cuz if you blindly use whatever default kernel RedHat or whoever throws at you, that's not so good maybe. ;)

  10. Re:Focus switching to the desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That was quoted from an Oracle Exec. let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm not sure how 2.6 is considered a "server" release. The Kernel is the kernel. 2.6 will be the default kernel on desktop installs in a few months I'm sure.

    A lot of the patches in 2.6 benefit both the server and desktop camps equally. The scheduler and VM improvments and XFS. I believe RedHat backports those patches to the 2.4 kernel for the ES/AS/WS versions.

    If you haven't tried 2.6 yet, you really should. I noticed a considerable increase in X response time with it.

  11. Brain Lasers by yamcha666 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Will there be support for my orbiting brain lasers in the 2.7 series?

  12. What I would like to see by ChiralSoftware · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I would like to see less things in the 2.7 kernel than in the 2.6 kernel. Getting device drivers, network drivers, etc, out of the kernel core and into modules was a step forward, but I think the next step forward would be to get these things out of the kernel entirely, and into userland. That would give Linux a huge advantage over Microsoft Windows. Installing and un-installing device drivers would become much easier for users. Manufacturers would like this too because then there would be less concern about GPL and device drivers. It would be easier to release binary-only drivers.

    1. Re:What I would like to see by Abcd1234 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Installing and un-installing device drivers would become much easier for users.

      Is insmod so difficult?

      Manufacturers would like this too because then there would be less concern about GPL and device drivers. It would be easier to release binary-only drivers.

      Since when did we care? Linus has flat out said he doesn't like binary drivers, for pretty good reasons, I think (harder to debug being the main one). Why encourage this?

      So, any other good reasons why you'd want userland drivers? Are those reasons good enough to offset the additional overhead that this would incur (additional context switching,etc)? The new layers of indirection that would have to be added?

      Frankly, I think you might have been bitten by the microkernel bug. But, sorry, Linux ain't no microkernel. And, so far, it hasn't needed to be. So, why start now?

  13. Pointless article by Theovon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That article was amazingly content-free.

  14. Re:Focus switching to the desktop by SLi · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you haven't tried 2.6 yet, you really should. I noticed a considerable increase in X response time with it.

    I hope you didn't mean what you wrote. :P

  15. Advertising in the article by CSharpMinor · · Score: 4, Funny

    From a MS ad embeeded in the article:
    "Windows Server 2003 offers a savings of 11-22% over Linux in 4 out of 5 workplace scenarios."

    From the text of the article:
    "The company said in a 2001 Securities and Exchange Commission filing that Linux cut its technology expenses by $16 million, or 25 percent."

    --

    Whatever it is I'm complaining about, I'm sure the Republicans did it. This is /., after all.
  16. Why It's Done That Way. by HopeOS · · Score: 5, Informative

    This may come off as overly aggressive, and for that I apologize in advance, but people who haven't adminstrated *nix boxes in large-scale deployments often fail to recognize that there's a delibrate method behind the file system.

    Each one of those directories has a very distinct purpose; it didn't happen that way by accident. The difference between /bin, /usr/bin, and /usr/local/bin may seem trivial to you as a user, but from an administrative vantage point, they are very important.

    In single user mode with an ailing system, the most you may successfully get booted is the root partition. You have at your disposal only /bin, /sbin, and /lib. That means that all tools necessary for fixing the system must be there including all kernel modules and shared libraries. It must also be possible for this device to be completely read-only, possibly even residing in firmware. Installing an application in /bin while its companion libraries are on /usr/lib would be folly since the /usr partition may be completely inaccessible. You may notice that some distributions install a stripped-down, statically-linked version of vi in /bin and a full-featured, shared-library version in /usr/bin. Now you know why.

    Once booted and all the necessary kernel modules are loaded from /lib, the remaining partitions can be mounted. On a single-user machine, the /usr directory may be on the same partition as root. Often times it has its own partition. But for large-scale deployments, the entire /usr partition may be on a network share. It may also be on a CDROM. Installing software to /usr may be impossible or require a site-wide change. Secondly, it won't do to have software trying to write data to this partition, so programs and data are always separated. All data goes to /var which is normally a machine-specific mount. Also, a diskless machine may mount /var on a ram disk.

    To address software installed on individual machines, we use the /usr/local directory. If /usr is read-only, /usr/local is mounted to a separate writeable volume. All software not packaged by the distributor or site administrator belongs in /usr/local if it's machine-wide and in the user's home directory if not. Other conventions exist, including the use of /opt, but that's a site policy issue.

    So that's that. Given any package, it is a simple matter to determine if its executables go to /bin, /usr/bin, or /usr/local/bin. Libraries go to the equivalent lib directory. Header files to the equivalent include directory. Manual pages to man. Cross-application data to share. All application data goes to /var including log files and databases. All temporary files go to /tmp. If you follow these rules, there's no end to the configurations you can create. Violate any single rule and you have a machine that cannot be recovered, applications that cannot be shared site-wide, machine-wide, or between users, and data that cannot be conveniently backed up. Sorta like Windows.

    You specifically address the issue of plug-ins, but even having an application located at /usr/software/netscape won't help if the installer is looking for /usr/software/mozilla. This class of problem has been solved many times over with package configuration files and scripts. The responsibility is mainly that of the distribution maintainers to facilitate this. If it's not happening for your distro, get satisfaction, or move to a distro that cares.

    That said, the browser plug-in issue annoys me, too.

    -Hope

  17. Cluster File System by dotwaffle · · Score: 4, Informative

    There used to be a cluster fs for windows called Mango - but that's now obsolete thanks to Win2003, which clusters. But Linux can't access that as far as I know. So there is a middleman - Coda. Coda is a clustered file system for use with WinNt/Win95/Linux and is already in the kernel as far as I know. Just clearing up the hole that appears to be at the bottom of the article (really... it's been in since 2.4!)