Slashdot Mirror
Switching from Another Industry to Engineering/CS?
WomensHealth asks: "I am a physician, but contemplating a career change perhaps 5 to 10 years down the road. In addition to medicine, what I've always loved is computers and technology, and I think I have a pretty good appreciation for both. What tips could computer industry insiders offer to one who is willing to pursue an independent educational path towards a career in a Computer Science field? MIT's OpenCourseWare seems well put-together, though one can't get a degree using it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?"
I really hate to be so blunt - but where I'm from we're severely lacking Medical Doctors. Here in Ontario, we really need you people.
Please, stick with your current occupation. You're saving lives there, and I doubt you could say the same in an IT field.
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Go down to your local Fry's and buy a nice shiny computer. Use the computer to visit the GNU website and take a look at the projects that look like they need some help. Download the code and start working on it using Cygwin tools or Linux, if you've installed it.
Forget about making money in the industry, you're much better off getting a degree in plumbing, the pay is better and the hours are better.
I have been pwned because my
From someone who has been in the industry for 10 years: the answer is...don't. This is a dead end field now, especially with competition from markets that can support low wages and people willing to give away their work for free.
It was once a good field to be in, but has now become so devalued that I cannot recommend it.
Go ahead and do it!! Instead of doing something like certification courses (CCNA, MSCE, etc.) that might or might not be accepted, try and get into a MS degree program somewhere. And to do something like this is definitely possible... from where I worked at a couple of years ago, I had one person in my group who went from being a heart surgeon to a software engineer and someone else who went from a city cop to a chip designer. Sure, its not easy but at the end of the day, you will have what counts.
It's too late for me! I for one am looking to be out of IT in 5yrs. Seriously, why throw away a medical education for an industry of questionable future and even more questionable ethics and morality? In my opinion, if you sold real estate like software is sold, ou would be in prison. If you sold used cars like software was sold, you would be in prison.
my $.02
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
If your training leads you to a career that can be done from offsite, that same carreer is in danger of being offshored.
There is no business difference between someone who telecommutes from India or Indiana.
comment directly in my journal
The one advantage that you do have is in-depth knowledge about a potentially lucrative customer niche: medicine. Consider leveraging that to specify, maybe even design software and systems to help medical people.
You might be able to code up some demos and do some usability testing, but (IMHO) you ought to resist the tempation to try to implement production systems. Quality is important, and experienced developers automatically deal with issues that you wouldn't even think of for years to come. Hire quality people and let them make you rich!
This question is insulting.
How would you feel if you got the following question from a patient?
[pretentious diatribe deleted]
Unfortunately, the analogy is false. IT doesn't kill or save enough people, so there's no rigorous screening process for people entering the field. There is no 7-8 years of proving ground and education before being released upon the masses.
The fact is that kids out of HS and smart people all around the world are picking up IT like loose change.
Here's some real advice for the original poster: Some of the hottest IT jobs right now are probably...tada, health-related industries. Look around what you do RIGHT NOW and look at what things could be done better and more efficiently using computers. Develop some software to do so and you can make a mint. Hundreds of successful startups do just that--recognize an inefficiency in the medical system and fill a specific niche. If you want to break into the industry, no need to learn all the coding yourself--just find some smart coders, show them the inefficiency and give them some ideas how to fix it, spread around a little seed money and voila, you're a mogul.
First of all, the poster wasn't asking about "IT" or even "programming", they were asking about Computer Science. And Computer Science does kill people. Have you ever read the Risks digest? There are hundreds examples there.
The fact that licensing is not currently required is another story... for some jobs, I think it should be. But regardless of what the licensing situation is, it is unrealistic, and frankly insulting, to expect a shortcut into become serious and good at something.
"Kids out of HS", as you say, pick up IT like loose change. What does that mean, that they can write a VB app and put together a network? Would you trust such a kid out of HS to write software that runs the autopilot on a 747, or the heart monitor in your hospital, or for that matter the firmware of your cell phone?
I'm all for it. The typical slashdotter probably wouldn't be though. But bear in mind that many of the slashdot crowd are IT professionals, a single occupation within a greater sphere that has seen significant job losses. The sad reality of computers these days is that if you want to do something with computers, the best way to get a job is to know something about what you're doing with them.. I believe this was said by Joel of JoelOnSoftware or some such semiluminary.
Well, as a physician, you've got some specialized knowledge that will come in handy from time to time. I'm sure you've heard plenty about biotech. I've seen some of these DNA "computers" and chips, and it seems very wasteful. Grow specimen, extract and treat dna, splash on a grid with transverse dna's and call it a computation. Then record the data and throw it away. This is just one example of the biotech oddities that seperate the field from your average HTTP server. There's all sorts of places to work. Merck, Eli Lilly, etc. Having a MD with some working knowledge of computer programming will get you further than having a degree in computer programming and a working knowledge of human physiology.
Your best bet is to start writing programs for yourself, and maybe design a few gui tools to put on top of them. Basically build a working portfolio that demonstrates you can write in perl, SQL or whatever, then apply. Or maybe you will find that a few of your own programs are marketable to your friends. I hear many doctors enjoy PDAs and related software. If your a general practicioner, you might try thinking about what sort of software would make your practice faster, more reliable or more cost effective. By all means, read up on HIPAA and the sorts of laws regulating how software should treat patient data. Maybe buy a pda and a wireless reciever and learn how to interface software from the pda to a database over the wireless in a safe, secure manner.
Learning to program is not that difficult. Some languages make it more obscure than others, and some languages are built for more specific domains than others, but here at KSU we only really have three "how to program" type classes of varying difficulty before you begin to learn how to specify WHAT you should program, be it a database, an operating system or a 3d renderer.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
1. Learn to program
2. ?? (*see below)
3. Profit!
*In your profession, you probably can find a need that because you've worked in the trenches you can fill better then any programmer could. Programming is not something you can learn overnight, but is more like a talent, like playing the piano. Figure out the niche that you can fill, and make a program to handle it. Make it open source (GPL) and start using it. Talk it up among your doctor friends and see if they are interested. Others may join in, and start asking for changes that you haven't anticipated. At this point you can start charging for enhancements. Since you are the expert in this program you are the one contacted. Get some rightups in medical journels and you are on your programming way.
I would feel honored, not insulted. Same as I feel about someone asking about entering the computer industry. Curiousity is nothing to be offended by. Just because they have little or no experience doesn't mean they have little or no appreciation and respect for what you do.
As for the question, my recommendations are: 1) Have plenty of reserve cash. I hope the industry is better in 5 or 10 years, but even if it is you'll need money while you train and take those entry level jobs. 2) Experience is better than certifications. You often need the latter before anyone will let you get the former, but if anyone offers you ANY job remotely related to the field you're interested in, take it. On the job experience builds your skills and your contacts. 3) Combine your interests. The things that stand out most on your resume are not your certifications or even your IT experience (though both are often required), but the other interesting things about you. For instance, I entered IT from a background as a high school teacher. Know what? Most employers find that background tremendously valuable and look to me as a trainer.
Best of luck to you!
-madgeorge
If you enjoy computers then play with them. You will lose your joy if you become a professional. I like eating ice cream but I don't think I'd enjoy eating ice cream if I worked in an ice cream factory.
This business is harsh. I don't know what medicine is like but the IT industry is not pleasent anymore. It was at one time when the field was filled with brilliant innovators but now it's just shit.
Finally any doctor I know drives a nicer car, has a better house and a better looking wife then any computer professional I know.
Don't do it, you'll regret it later.
War is necrophilia.
I know I'm going to make some enemies with this post, but I seriously urge you all, who think that it's bad that jobs are going to India, to consider the benefits of offshoring IT jobs.
By having cheaper labor do the same work and produce equally good or better products and services is a good thing. Remember your college economics class? Comparative Advantange? It's important for a nation's economy to do what it does best. Just as the poster asked whether or not she should get into the computer science field, I would say, if you like it and you think you will be better at it than medicine, then by all means, go for it.
By having people do what they do best, it allows for specializiation and the way corporations work the way they do today. Specialization allows more output from the same input by increasing the productivity of workers. Similarly, specialization applies to the global level and when nations specialize in one service or good, that is better for the entire global economy. Just think back to the 70s and 80s when the auto industry was screaming bloody murder over the import of cheaper and better made Japanese cars. Americans learned to respond to that. Similarly, the currently shrinking job market in the IT field is not something to be afraid of. There are plenty of problems that require solving in the technological sciences involving computers that currently displaced employees can help solve and this is an overall benefit to global society. Yes, there will be a short-run hard hit to people at home, but allowing free trade is a good thing. And in this case, it's the free trade of jobs in the computer industry. But remember, in the long run, it's in the best interest of everyone.
"With this push to go back to the Moon and to Mars, I think the space program will be revived"
I certainly hope this comes true but I'd rate it as something of a long shot especially if your risking so much of your future on it.
Its somewhat more likely that NASA will start to wind down the shuttle and the space station to free funds for Bush's bold new initiative so both of these old programs die. No serious money will be invested in Bush's new space initiative in the mean time. What money there is will go in to giant mounds of paper studies with little real value.
Most of the big spending on the new initiative wont begin until after Bush's second term. By that time, unless there is another bubble, chances are the U.S. government will be teetering on bankruptcy and spending large sums servicing a huge debt from huge budget deficits thanks to Bush's huge tax cuts coupled with spending that puts a drunken sailor to shame. Its unlikely very many politicians will risk there careers by suggesting the U.S. should borrow even more money to throw huge sums in to a bold new NASA space initiative, especially given NASA's recent track record in manned spaceflight, one of abysmal planning and wasteful spending. Its very possible the U.S. could end up with no shuttle and no replacement unless they buy the services of the Russians and the Chinese.
Maybe we'll get lucky and the relatively successful robotic programs will survive in tact but I wouldn't count on it thanks to the flawed decision making that can happen in flawed bureaucracies undergoing a large change in direction like the one NASA is about to attempt.
NASA will also probably still be very effectively standing in the way of any serious private space initiatives during all this.
@de_machina
The person who posed the question said CS/Engineering, and all you guys seem to have heard is 'IT'.
'IT' has as much to do with Computer Science/Engineering as the guy who changes the oil in your car has to do with Automotive Engineering.
It finally 'got to me' this far down in reading the comments. Sorry about that.
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There's some issues I read over and over...
"Programming! Programming!" - Any quality CS program is only about 1/3rd programming related. 1/3rd is theory, and the other 1/3rd is hardware architecture. Usually you'll have a few advanced classes which bring it all together (like operating systems design). A well educated computer scientist can switch languages with ease depending on the needs of the work and learn new ones quickly. In the CS world, programming is just a means to an end. I'm 1 semester shy of graduating with a degree in it and doing the programming is perhaps the least interesting part that I thankfully, spend little time in. I'm more interested in solving problems with *design* than typing away lines of code.
"There's no jobs!" - Yeah. Maybe if you don't have a CS degree which focuses on the *SCIENCE* part of it. There is a quite a demand for people in the engineering and scientific world who can design (as opposed to simply "program") advanced algorithms and computation software. Even if your speciality isn't scientific computing there is still a large number of jobs waiting for people with CS degrees out of well known schools in a variety of areas. IBM's making a big push for CS grads.
"*somethingsomething* IT! " - CS is *not* IT. Its like comparing the doctor's receptionist to the doctor. I'm not belittling the receptionist or the IT people - both the doctors and the CS folks need their records/networks organized and maintained with skill - but they do fundamentally different things.
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Spark, meet tinder. Tinder, spark.
Now that that's out of the way: if you're considering a schooling method other than self-instruction, you're not going to be fit for the industry anyway, so don't even bother. Seriously - people go to school for things like IT and CS, sure, but just that won't do a thing for a person. CS requires one be always updating their skills; if you're just getting into the field at 40+ (I figure this number from the idea that you graduated college at 23ish, the spen 8 more years in school after that, plus whatever time you needed to become an established physician who is already considering a career change) and doing so by going back to school, chances are you've not got the right mindset to be successful in the field, especially considering the atmsophere of the industry for the last 3ish years.
Have you been under a rock for the last 3 years, I wonder? Seriously. I can't but almost consider this some sort of mockery of slashdot, and possibly simply a joke. You're a physician. You rob people of immense amounts of money (usually paid for by insurance). Your job is dependable - people will always get ill. You could live a comfortable live and spend your money on expensive gadgets and new server racks for your toys - and do it on your leasure, for enjoyment. But instead you'd rather make a pittance in your old age, at risk of being fired or dismissed for any number of reasons, so as to get to work long hours under unkind managers? It seems to me that the doctor tends to be at, or near, the top, in many situations. Seems a bit more preferable.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Here's a medical analogy for you.
;/
The situation in the computer industry is like medicine would be as if every kid who had dissected some fetal pigs decided to hang out a shingle and become an obstetrician.
You're looking at replacing a secure, varied and financially extremely rewarding field with a field which is insecure, hypersaturated, and arguably can be done by someone with very little education.
Not only that but IS work lends itself to ruts. Wherever you work, you're going to be learning an API or a network system, and then you're going to be writing for or supporting that API or network, until you get another job, where you could very well be doing exactly the same thing.
If you're interested in spending your time in overcrowded cubicle farms full of stressed, angry, reclusive programmers who live in constant fear that their jobs are going to be given to retrained bricklayers from bloody Pakistan, you're headed in the right direction!
Oddly enough, I'm in a position now where I can run screaming from the bloated tech industry, and I'm back in college getting ready for med school.
The only way your idea is not utterly BONKERS is if you want to somehow use your medical skill to get into something like bioinformatics where the money is potentially gigantic for doctors who have technical ability.
Here's what the computer industry is like right now. You have a lot of people who are very experienced and good at what they do. Then you have numerous carpetbagging amateurs who have installed kiddie Linux a few times, are good at bullshit, and have wormed themselves into positions of responsibility. It's almost like a kind of Ponzi scheme.
That's much of the reason why the industry lost a lot of its credibility. That's much of the reason why the industry started asking "Why are we paying this yoyo $120 an hour when Patel in Calcutta says that he can get the job done for rupees on the dollar?"
Look very very carefully at this before you do it. You've got numerous people here-- who should know-- telling you things like "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." This is no joke.
Sorry to rant but I'm sure most of ya all know what I'm talking about
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
is DON'T. Here are a few reasons why you really ought NOT to get a tech degree / persue a tech career: ... just for 10 minutes". As a tech, you're expected to save your neighbors from themselves continuously. ... as a CAREER path in this day and age, though ... you really don't need the hassle. You served your "8-years-of-hell" already going through med school; no need to repeat it with a career. ... but it's not seen that way these days.
:( Sure, I have Gray's Anatomy, have done dissection, and know what bursae are ... but guess what? That doesn't get me a damn dime.
... it was crazy.
* As an MD, your next-door neighbors don't really expect you to "just pop over and check out Bob's heart a bit
* As an MD, your time is respected (see above).
* As an MD, you're employable.
* As an MD, it pretty much stands that you're in a respectable profession with reasonable people. The same assumptions will not neccessarily be made in tech.
* As an MD, if the patient dies, people are typically understanding. As a tech, if you can't revive someone's 80086 to run Windows XP PRO, then YOU SUCK.
* As an MD, you'll see the field saturated with Indian and Pakistani folks. As a tech, you'll see the field cornered with Indian and Pakastani folks(1).
* As a HOBBY, computers are great and are quite rewarding
* If you're looking for some Mad Money / Retirement Money, look elsewhere. I personally ended up coming back to school for advanced degrees rather than go work in Texas for $28,000/year as a professional.
* Respect, respect, respect. MD == "professional". Engineer/IT Person == "professional" also
G'luck. I personally wish that I'd have done what you did (med school and kept computing as a HOBBY) rather than the other way around.
N
(1) I have nothing against either; I worked for/with Pakastanis in a mom-and-pop shop in the mid-90s
Yeah well he has a point though... these "inside jokes" do get old at some point. I mean, come on... there's like thousands of 'em 1-2-3 profit jokes by now or something, attached to every story for too long to remember.
What's also funny to notice is that it's usually the still pretty "novice" users (like uid 400000+) who label them as "inside jokes" and still laugh about them. To *you* perhaps, it's an inside joke, because that's how *you* got to know slashdot. That's how *you* got, at least in your head, connected to this "community" with all these friends and stuff.
To others, however, it pretty much seems like the quality of the discussion has been deteriorating with each year's new load of "insiders", who keep recycling the shitty lame jokes they saw some trolls make when they first hit slahsdot. Impressed with all the "funnyness", they are apt to adapt and adopt.
Together it kinda reminds me of the way we used to keep "connected" as a social group in high school. Like make the same old joke in a different way, laugh about it and know you're all on good terms and such. You know? Like needing a family or something.
We solved that by getting a life.
There's a lesson for you somewhere in there.
On the other hand, I'm in IT consulting, so I might be biased. I also really don't know that industry. Everything in this book may be wrong.
He's got a point... right now the industry is being outsourced left and right, and the job market is ridiculous. Most people (such as myself) are trying to get _OUT_ of the industry.
He isn't some college sophmore with nothing to his name. If he goes into a CS program, he doesn't get his MD revoked and he will probably start in a Master's program at least. Being a physician and in a tech will put him far above almost everybody else here on slashdot. This biocomputing or whatever with the supercomputers to solve biology problems, is one of the best fields to be in.
Forget programming, millions of people can do that -- but not many people can mix your two areas of expertise.
Berto
I was in your position 10 years ago, with an active Family Practice and a love of computers. I took advantage of a family move for my wife's career to change mine from medicine. I looked hard at CS, but ultimately decided that I'd be happier _using_ computers to do something, rather than supporting computers for those doing the research. So I ultimately ended up in Biochemisty/Biophysics researching protein crystal structures. It provides plenty of opportunity to work with computers in depth, while I still feel like I'm pushing back the limits of our knowledge. And the medical background has been quite valuable. It has been a fun move for me.
Good luck. Duke out.
In any industry you need to grow as a person and constantly increase your skills and knowledge to stay competitive. When I hear people whining about this outsourcing, all I can think of is the scores of developers I've seen in banks and other corporations that use their employers as resume mills and places to play with new tech.
While I am no longer able to bill $250/hr like I was during the dot-com days, I still have head hunters calling me up regularly, and have had no problem finding work.
To the original asker -- I know one woman who was a very successful doctor, and very successfully transitioned into software development, and now owns a company. Successful people are good at whatever they do. Get yourself a book and make a fake little project and start banging out some code. Attitude and personality transcend job type.
"Ain't I a stinka..." - Bugs
Nice a fellow Prarie home companion listener! Everyone makes a good point though. The world needs in general to restructure because there are too many tech workers an not enough demand for tech. I have a CS/EE BS degree and I hoped to do Unix Sys Admin or Embeded programming with that. Right now I am considering general electronics repairman because the market is so bleak. For the most obscure job expect a minimum of 100 applicants. My advice to all of you is stay in school or your current field/career. Don't quit your day job. Lastly the Tech fields and especially the computer field requires an encredible ammount of patience. It is extremely stressful in other ways that a physician might feel stress. In computers your patient doesn't always give you the feedback you need to fix them up. Your work is demanding and has health risks(carpel tunnel, back issues from sitting extended periods, ect). A doctor can feel stressed because you have a human life on your hands. A computer technician, programmer, sys admin feels the same stress because you have millions of company dollars on your hand. If you hoped to change careers because you didn't like the stress or hours of being a doctor your in for a rude awakening as a computer professional.
There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
I respectfully disagree. You may be "old at 40" in many jobs relative to the age of new hires, but you are not at any disadvantage in terms of software development skills, creativity, experience, smarts, know-how, people skills, patience, etc.
As an old fart in my late 30s-early 40s I have watched young 18-year-old or 20-year-old hotshots from MIT come do a year or two of internship, or newly graduated 23-year-olds fresh from the compsci mills, and they are a marvel to behold; they talk fast, think fast, and type fast. However, they also make a big mess because they haven't learned how to be engineers yet, only coder/hackers. They are disorganized, they make huge mistakes in their designs, can't document for shit, they go down blind alleys... all the mistakes we also made as neophytes. Don't get me wrong--we love these young tykes and we know that when they're 35 they'll be awesome, but right now most of them can't program their way out of a paper bag. At the better companies, the management knows this as well. By contrast, I've noticed that older beginners tend to be more patient and humble and tend to "grow up" in the field a lot faster.
Regarding your contention that someone can be too old for anything, I would say that can't possibly be true. There are millions of people every year who discover their true calling and proceed to change careers in mid-life. This is what makes the U.S. such a great country; it's not the crooked politicians, the rigged elections, the oligarchical corporations, malls, racism, the self-centered lawsuit-happy masses, etc. It's the freedom and opportunity to go back to school and reinvent yourself, something which is next to impossible in most other places.
Ironically, I just had an interview today for a hospital volunteer position; I'm thinking of switching from software engineering into the healthcare field, maybe even medical school. The interviewer is a person who was once in theatre, now in hospital work, and is studying to become an ordained minister. Needless to say I got a very sympathetic hearing on my career aspirations.
One thing I've learned through all this is to never tell someone they can't achieve something. There are enough obstacles in the road so why create imaginary ones? If the O.P. wants to go into computers, more power to'em. Heck, if nothing else, they can moonlight in an E.R. once a month to pay the bills and still do what they love.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.