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Switching from Another Industry to Engineering/CS?
WomensHealth asks: "I am a physician, but contemplating a career change perhaps 5 to 10 years down the road. In addition to medicine, what I've always loved is computers and technology, and I think I have a pretty good appreciation for both. What tips could computer industry insiders offer to one who is willing to pursue an independent educational path towards a career in a Computer Science field? MIT's OpenCourseWare seems well put-together, though one can't get a degree using it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?"
How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
I'd recommend this...
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
1) Switch from Medicine to Computer Science
2) Move to India
3) ??
4) Profit!
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
I really hate to be so blunt - but where I'm from we're severely lacking Medical Doctors. Here in Ontario, we really need you people.
Please, stick with your current occupation. You're saving lives there, and I doubt you could say the same in an IT field.
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Go down to your local Fry's and buy a nice shiny computer. Use the computer to visit the GNU website and take a look at the projects that look like they need some help. Download the code and start working on it using Cygwin tools or Linux, if you've installed it.
Forget about making money in the industry, you're much better off getting a degree in plumbing, the pay is better and the hours are better.
I have been pwned because my
From someone who has been in the industry for 10 years: the answer is...don't. This is a dead end field now, especially with competition from markets that can support low wages and people willing to give away their work for free.
It was once a good field to be in, but has now become so devalued that I cannot recommend it.
Go ahead and do it!! Instead of doing something like certification courses (CCNA, MSCE, etc.) that might or might not be accepted, try and get into a MS degree program somewhere. And to do something like this is definitely possible... from where I worked at a couple of years ago, I had one person in my group who went from being a heart surgeon to a software engineer and someone else who went from a city cop to a chip designer. Sure, its not easy but at the end of the day, you will have what counts.
It's too late for me! I for one am looking to be out of IT in 5yrs. Seriously, why throw away a medical education for an industry of questionable future and even more questionable ethics and morality? In my opinion, if you sold real estate like software is sold, ou would be in prison. If you sold used cars like software was sold, you would be in prison.
my $.02
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
This is the first time I've seen a TROLL ARTICLE!
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
This question is insulting.
How would you feel if you got the following question from a patient?
I am a computer scientist, but contemplating a career change perhaps 5 to 10 years down the road. In addition to computers, what I've always loved is anatomy and biology, and I think I have a pretty good appreciation for both. What tips could medical industry insiders offer to one who is willing to pursue an independent educational path towards a career in a Medical field? I'd like to start operating on people right away; Gray's Anatomy seems like a good guide, though I apparently can't get a license by reading it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
I can't imagine going from something like medicine where you've got 8-10 years of college invested PLUS residency, into IT. Sure you could do it, and there are jobs that would pay you comparably, but the IT field is so unstable right now that it doesn't seem terribly wise.
Of course the flip side is that if all medicine gets under govermental control you may be in a much less lucrative job than you are right now. I think that if you're serious you should look at the programming/CS degree while you're practicing medicine and then apply both specialties by developing applications for the medical field. It's specialty work like that, where it takes somebody with inside knowledge to really know what is going on with the end result and not just the programming, that will be more difficult to outsource. Also the potential for true innovation from somebody within the medical field attacking programming is enough that you might secure yourself a position with a large company.
It would be a gamble any way you look at it. If you're really into it then find an online part-time CS program and enroll. Take a few classes over the course of many years. It will take you much longer to get the degree due to the changing nature of CS degree requirements, BUT... you'll know better by the end if you really want to leave medicine AND you'll still have the knowledge to grow from later.
CharlesP
wordtrip.com
I always thought doctors were supposed to be smart.
I thought the same about my fellow geeks. To wit:
Unless you got stuck being an anusologist, stay with medicine.
Anusologist? I believe proctologist is the correct term - google is your friend.
Actually, I think SCO could realy, really use a computer person who is also a skilled proctologist - that way someone would be there to remove Darl's head from his ass.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
The one advantage that you do have is in-depth knowledge about a potentially lucrative customer niche: medicine. Consider leveraging that to specify, maybe even design software and systems to help medical people.
You might be able to code up some demos and do some usability testing, but (IMHO) you ought to resist the tempation to try to implement production systems. Quality is important, and experienced developers automatically deal with issues that you wouldn't even think of for years to come. Hire quality people and let them make you rich!
One popular way for MDs to break into the industry is to go to related fields where medical knowledge is being used in the context of IT, such as Medical Informatics. For example, at the Yale Center for Medical Informatics the majority of faculty and scientists hold MDs or are MD/Ph.Ds. You don't need to obtain a degree per se; as long as you can show that you know what-you-are-doing(tm). Do a post-doc at an informatics department. Talking to the IT people at your hospital can help. Start playing more with computer hardware and programming languages. Implement and deploy IT solutions that assist in your medical care. Your colleagues having trouble with their nifty new handhelds? Take a look at them over the weekend. Not happy with your new-fangled patient tracking system? Talk to the developer and analyze the database.
There are tons and tons of existing resources available both in print and online that you can use to learn the stuff you need. An MD is already a terminal degree; unless you are looking for academic/faculty computer science positions, it is not entirely necessary to have to go to school for IT at this time.
As far as the market is concerned, there is always interest in people who possess both a human-oriented and computer-oriented skillset; especially for places that are full of one-kind-but-not-the-other. (Like in a setting where everyone is a physician but they don't know IT, or a group of IT people who want someone who understands the biomed field).
IT is leaps and bounds above other industries precisely because it is hard to define.
A software sales critter essentially sells ideas and unmeasurable claims. A product which not only does not exist, but also has not been designed!
They promise the V8, 4 wheel drive, A/C, automatic transmission etc. for $20000 and deliver a POS (such as a Yugo as an example of a small cheaply built car) for $40000, and defective to boot. In real estate you can go out and look at the lot, the nieghborhood and the building plan and decide if that is what you want.
The ephemeral nature of software means that any charlatan or con artist can have a field day. And then charge outragous sums for bug fixes called upgrades. Which is one reason I am getting out, I no longer want to be associated with such practices, which are accepted as the norm.
Not all capitalism is immoral and/or unethical, just as not all socialists are lazy. It is just that IT is the worst I have found to date, and I see no good way to improve the situation.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
If you enjoy computers then play with them. You will lose your joy if you become a professional. I like eating ice cream but I don't think I'd enjoy eating ice cream if I worked in an ice cream factory.
This business is harsh. I don't know what medicine is like but the IT industry is not pleasent anymore. It was at one time when the field was filled with brilliant innovators but now it's just shit.
Finally any doctor I know drives a nicer car, has a better house and a better looking wife then any computer professional I know.
Don't do it, you'll regret it later.
War is necrophilia.
I know I'm going to make some enemies with this post, but I seriously urge you all, who think that it's bad that jobs are going to India, to consider the benefits of offshoring IT jobs.
By having cheaper labor do the same work and produce equally good or better products and services is a good thing. Remember your college economics class? Comparative Advantange? It's important for a nation's economy to do what it does best. Just as the poster asked whether or not she should get into the computer science field, I would say, if you like it and you think you will be better at it than medicine, then by all means, go for it.
By having people do what they do best, it allows for specializiation and the way corporations work the way they do today. Specialization allows more output from the same input by increasing the productivity of workers. Similarly, specialization applies to the global level and when nations specialize in one service or good, that is better for the entire global economy. Just think back to the 70s and 80s when the auto industry was screaming bloody murder over the import of cheaper and better made Japanese cars. Americans learned to respond to that. Similarly, the currently shrinking job market in the IT field is not something to be afraid of. There are plenty of problems that require solving in the technological sciences involving computers that currently displaced employees can help solve and this is an overall benefit to global society. Yes, there will be a short-run hard hit to people at home, but allowing free trade is a good thing. And in this case, it's the free trade of jobs in the computer industry. But remember, in the long run, it's in the best interest of everyone.
I am an American medical student with several engineering friendss (pre-meds and engineers have lots in common at the undergrad level). When we contemplated the same question, we devised this: if you want to combine the two fields, please consider prosthetics research. Recent advances in neuroscience, materials science and computer technologies are making this field an up-and-comer over the next two decades.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
The market is currently quite rough, especially to break into. After being laid off when a product tanked on the market, I've gone a few months without having a single resume responded to - and I have almost a decade of professional programming experience that was applicable to the jobs I've applied for (and my resume used to keep the phones ringing daily for months when I posted it - the market has changed a bit).
I've been spending the extra time continuing development on my personal code library and projects, writing open source code, and working on a few products that I expect there to be a market for when they're done. That's how I'd suggest breaking into the field as well.
You have a very special situation though - you know, or can find out if you think about it and ask your colleagues, exactly what one fairly wealthy niche market needs. What software would help you - as a doctor - work more efficiently? What software have you and your colleagues found lacking? There's your first project :)
It won't be easy, and you won't make money fast. My recommendation would be to start learning about computers and computer programming now while thinking about products. As soon as you feel like you can design a useful program and have one in mind - take a shot at it.
Use CVS ( or for Windows, WinCVS ) or some other revision control so you can keep track of all the code you write (I wish I had when I started!). Estimate for yourself how long tasks should take - track those estimates, and figure out why they were right or wrong. Document everything, especially the code.
Once you have a product you think is worthy for your target audience - use it yourself in your work. Then let some colleagues try it out. Fix anything you find wrong with it, and ask your colleagues for suggestions.
Then, set up a website, advertise it, and try to sell it - or set up a project on SourceForge and make it open source - whichever you feel more comfortable with. On SourceForge, you'll be able to enlist the help of other more experienced programmers and together tailor the product towards excellence. If you sell it and it's successful, you'll be able to afford to switch careers to full-time programmer/entreprenuer and just work on your business.
That brings me to another point - if you aren't currently running your own doctor's office, start learning business skills too. They're just as hard to pick up as programming skills - possibly harder for some. Figure out what you'll need to do to start running your own software company. Even if you decide to write your own software as open source and become an employee for someone else professionally, this will help you at the negotiating table.
What I would NOT recommend is dropping out of medicine, getting a BS in computer science, and expect doors to be immediately open when you g
I write code.
First, you need to do what you like to do. I think a warning about the tough times in computing is fair. However, the employment situation is much better for harder skills (i.e. CS versus IT, research level CS versus UML/OOP/J2EE). I think there's still plenty of room for highly educated and motivated people.
Actually I saw a program at Dartmouth for a dual MD and PhD in CS (odd combination, but definitely useful). You may also be interested in the field of computational biophysics. It's all of the same ilk.
The article poster said he was interested in CS. Are you interested in research or business? There are a lot of different routes you could take. Do you want to deal with biomedical engineers, biochemists, or lawyers? Frankly, you were way too broad.
Incidentally, for what ever it's worth. You may get a kick out of http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/People/kauffman/">Stuar t Kauffman's work. He's regarded as one of the best in the field of complexity research. He also has an MD and no PhD. He taught himself quite a bit.
Some good Math and CS books:
"The (New) Turing Omnibus: 66 Excursions in Computer Science" by A. K. Dewdney
This book is a great advanced introduction to all of the major topics of CS (except neural networks). This book has sections on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Relational Algebra (database theory), viruses, operating systems, data structures, and more. This is a great book for you.
http://aduni.org/
This site has lectures from an entire CS curriculum online. It was an experimental program designed for people like you.
You'll need a good introductory book on programming. Since you're probably not worrying about polishing up your resume, and you seem to be more interested in learning, you should take a look at:
"The Little Schemer" or "The Little LISPer" by Daniel Friedman.
If you really want the traditional route, take a look at "Thinking in Java" by Bruce Eckel. It's free and most people recommend Java or C++ as a good first language.
If you're really daring, try the "Perl" book by Larry Wall or "Learning Perl" by Randall Schwartz. Although, I think Perl is a horrible first language to learn. It's way too exotic.
Take a look at "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" by W. Richard Stevens. It's a great book on the internals in Unix.
Learn assembly language, it's a poor man's computer architecture course. Try to make a small graphics program (draw some primitives [lines and circles]) with assembly. Of course, you can't do that in Windows (unless you call some Win32 libraries or are VERY good.
"First Order Logic" by Raymond Smullyan
This book essentially covers the mathematics of automated theorem proving. Armed only with this, I was able to read papers in the field. Some knowledge of basic logic (prepositional logic, maybe some slight familiarity with predicate logic) is required. I'd also recommend a whole lot of "mathematical maturity". I recommend any of Raymond Smullyan's books (technical and popular science) sight unseen. Even his thesis (Theory of Formal Systems) was pretty good.
Any book by Howard Whitley Eves or Robert R. Stoll
Both men wrote books on matrix theory (linear algebra and more) and set theory. Actually, both are top-notch textbook writers and many of their books are available from Dover Publications.
Calculus Made Easy by Silvanus P. Thompson (or by FRS [Fellow of the Royal Society] if it's really old) and Calculus by Michael Spivak
The first book is the closest thing to a competent Calculus for dummies. It's almost 100 years old and it's a classic. Incidentally Mr. Thompson was an engineer, not a mathematician. The second book is notoriously rigourous and is almost an introduction to analysis. I don't know if you really care about Calculus. You probably won't
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
There's some issues I read over and over...
"Programming! Programming!" - Any quality CS program is only about 1/3rd programming related. 1/3rd is theory, and the other 1/3rd is hardware architecture. Usually you'll have a few advanced classes which bring it all together (like operating systems design). A well educated computer scientist can switch languages with ease depending on the needs of the work and learn new ones quickly. In the CS world, programming is just a means to an end. I'm 1 semester shy of graduating with a degree in it and doing the programming is perhaps the least interesting part that I thankfully, spend little time in. I'm more interested in solving problems with *design* than typing away lines of code.
"There's no jobs!" - Yeah. Maybe if you don't have a CS degree which focuses on the *SCIENCE* part of it. There is a quite a demand for people in the engineering and scientific world who can design (as opposed to simply "program") advanced algorithms and computation software. Even if your speciality isn't scientific computing there is still a large number of jobs waiting for people with CS degrees out of well known schools in a variety of areas. IBM's making a big push for CS grads.
"*somethingsomething* IT! " - CS is *not* IT. Its like comparing the doctor's receptionist to the doctor. I'm not belittling the receptionist or the IT people - both the doctors and the CS folks need their records/networks organized and maintained with skill - but they do fundamentally different things.
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Here's a medical analogy for you.
;/
The situation in the computer industry is like medicine would be as if every kid who had dissected some fetal pigs decided to hang out a shingle and become an obstetrician.
You're looking at replacing a secure, varied and financially extremely rewarding field with a field which is insecure, hypersaturated, and arguably can be done by someone with very little education.
Not only that but IS work lends itself to ruts. Wherever you work, you're going to be learning an API or a network system, and then you're going to be writing for or supporting that API or network, until you get another job, where you could very well be doing exactly the same thing.
If you're interested in spending your time in overcrowded cubicle farms full of stressed, angry, reclusive programmers who live in constant fear that their jobs are going to be given to retrained bricklayers from bloody Pakistan, you're headed in the right direction!
Oddly enough, I'm in a position now where I can run screaming from the bloated tech industry, and I'm back in college getting ready for med school.
The only way your idea is not utterly BONKERS is if you want to somehow use your medical skill to get into something like bioinformatics where the money is potentially gigantic for doctors who have technical ability.
Here's what the computer industry is like right now. You have a lot of people who are very experienced and good at what they do. Then you have numerous carpetbagging amateurs who have installed kiddie Linux a few times, are good at bullshit, and have wormed themselves into positions of responsibility. It's almost like a kind of Ponzi scheme.
That's much of the reason why the industry lost a lot of its credibility. That's much of the reason why the industry started asking "Why are we paying this yoyo $120 an hour when Patel in Calcutta says that he can get the job done for rupees on the dollar?"
Look very very carefully at this before you do it. You've got numerous people here-- who should know-- telling you things like "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." This is no joke.
Sorry to rant but I'm sure most of ya all know what I'm talking about
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
keep in mind most of the people I know aren't even getting the average.
That's especially sad since here at Lake Woebegone, all the children are above average.
Are you affiliated with any local or regional hospitals?
Knock on wood, but we're not outsourcing. Too many bad experiences.
Do you want to continue on in the medical industry? There are PLENTY of opportinities there. If you are affiliated with a local hospital, see about getting on one of the technology commities. They're usually the IT staff who work with Doctors/Nurses/etc to get technology into their hands. Then gradually make your move into IS. No degree necessary.
I cant speak for where you live, but there are tons of opportunities for the medical community folks to work in IT here.
Forget programming, millions of people can do that -- but not many people can mix your two areas of expertise.
Berto
I'm sure there are plenty of companies out there that would love to have a CS person that has a strong background in medicine. You would probably have valuable insight that a normal CS person wouldn't have because of your experiences.
I have a Doctor friend and one thing i've noticed is that they have alot of contacts in the pharmaceutical industry. I would think that some of these companies are developing software for your industry and would be looking for someone with your experience.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."