UserLinux Will Support KDE

Makes good business sense... by bc90021 · 2004-02-01 04:14 · Score: 4, Interesting

...and I quote:

"I already have a customer asking for Perens LLC to provide commercial support for KDE on the UserLinux platform. And we will do so, even though KDE is not the chosen GUI of the UserLinux project. This is an
option for any UserLinux service provider."

So, in other words, if your customers want it, you should provide it. Makes sense to me. ;)

--
libertarianswag.com

Re:Makes good business sense... by craXORjack · 2004-02-01 04:17 · Score: 5, Funny

And the name of the customer is... ...Trolltech!

--
Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
Re:Makes good business sense... by TrentC · 2004-02-01 08:25 · Score: 3, Informative

I haven't seen Perens Vaporware yet.

You're not looking very hard if you can't find the installation instructions using Debian unstable as a base (once a couple of needed dependancies filter down into testing, that will be the minimum required).

True, there is no install CD yet, but that's because UserLinux is going to use the new Debian installer for sarge.

Jay (=

Choice is good... by _Pinky_ · 2004-02-01 04:20 · Score: 5, Interesting

Thats the one driving force, even above open source, that I think pulls people to GNU/Linux...

I mean people clammer about window manager themes almost as much as the window managers themselves...

Think of the solitary driving force, it's choice... Even as far to the point where if you don't like a certain aspect of a piece of software you can look at the source and change it...

So, to exclude any piece of software would, at heart, be hypocritical, given the open source method.

Just my two cents as a staunch Gnome user...

Perens LLC, not UserLinux by valkadesh · 2004-02-01 04:25 · Score: 4, Informative

What Perens is saying is that is own consulting company will offer support for KDE as a service provider. Gnome is still the only chosen GUI for UserLinux.

Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux by yanestra · 2004-02-01 04:37 · Score: 3, Funny

What Perens is saying is that is own consulting company will offer support for KDE as a service provider. Gnome is still the only chosen GUI for UserLinux.
Uncool.
More people like you and /. will cease to exist.
Stop spoiling /. discussions with unnecessary realism or old-fashioned think patterns like truth and false.
Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-01 04:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

> KDE is at least as good as Gnome

KDE is technically not AS GOOD as GNOME, no it's far supperior over GNOME in many ways. Something usually developers can talk about since they offer the technical skills to do so.

The normal people usually bash about what they prefer to use rather than giving good constructive feedback.

> So why are only a select few distro's using it as the default WM?

First of all, neither KDE nor GNOME are Window Managers, they are Desktop Environments. A complete different thing but important word to say. People usually talk about GNOME and KDE but don't even know the difference about WM's and DE's and thus it makes me wonder why they talk at all.

Actually KDE is being used in a wide range of distributions and the amount of distros using KDE as default Desktop Environment is far higher than you want to make us believe here.

Please first learn the difference between WM and DE and then come back talking and judging about KDE.
Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux by manyoso · 2004-02-01 04:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

... which completely breaks Bruce's latest rationale for excluding KDE in the first place:

"it's just too hard to support both..."

also throws some cold water on the other ridiculous rationales he uses from time to time, depending upon if the mood suits him:

"Qt can't support a coveted cottage industry of proprietary developers..."

yah, well, except for the current 'cottage industry' that overwhelmingly has chosen Qt for commercial development...

so Bruce's is left with one rationale for his decision to exclude KDE from the default of UL:

"I've already made the choice ... inertia"
Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux by 10Ghz · 2004-02-01 04:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well, there's SUSE, Mandrake, Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris, Conectiva and several others that use KDE as their default. Distros that use GNOME as default are Red Hat/Fedora and UserLinux (are there others?). Rest are desktop-agnostic.

So it would seem that there are more distros useing KDE as default than there are distros using GNOME as default.

--
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Re:Perens LLC, not UserLinux by jrexilius · 2004-02-01 05:48 · Score: 4, Informative

I dont think the support is overwhelming and I I think Perens discussed the issues earlier surounding this debate. He is a level-headed guy and laid out good reasons why he was opting for one particular desktop.

The two key points are that 1) there is the licensing issue with Qt and 2) the desire to simplify end-user configurations that need to be supported by vendors and service providers.

The second point, in my opinion, is the more important of the two. UserLinux is just another distro for a specific purpose and shaping it to suit that purpose is effectively is Perens job.

If you want KDE on a desktop distro get suse or lindows. He is not eliminating choice just by customizing a distro for a specific purpose.

Re:Simple business decision. Why is this news ? by kfg · 2004-02-01 04:28 · Score: 5, Funny

Slow news day perhaps...

Well yeah. SCO's down.

KFG

Nothing new here by TrentC · 2004-02-01 04:33 · Score: 4, Informative

This is just a rehash of what Bruce Perens has been saying all along; even though UserLinux's standard GUI desktop environment will be GNOME, KDE will still work on it, and will be supported on demand for customers who want it.

I already have a customer asking for Perens LLC to provide commercial support for KDE on the UserLinux platform. [emphasis mine] And we will do so, even though KDE is not the chosen GUI of the UserLinux project. This is an option for any UserLinux service provider.

So really, nothing has changed.

Jay (=

Re:Nothing new here by StormReaver · 2004-02-01 04:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

"So really, nothing has changed."

Something has changed. This customer will not have to go out of his way to get Qt/KDE onto his systems, as Perens LLC will make sure that they are preloaded.

We all should be painfully aware of the power of preloads vs. the weakness of non-preloads. All desktop systems should be have both GNOME and KDE preloaded and ready, as neither desktop has a lock on desirable applications, and both desktops have higly useful applications.

The only predictable result of not doing so is a large segment of somewhat pissed users who will claim that Linux is hard because it makes users work too hard to get the basic libraries in place for the applications they want to run.
Re:Nothing new here by TrentC · 2004-02-01 05:35 · Score: 5, Informative

You seem to be confusing "Bruce Perens notes that he has a customer who wants a UserLinux system with KDE, which he will provide" with "UserLinux will offer both GNOME by default and KDE as an option".

This is not a change for the UserLinux project. GNOME is still the only officially supported desktop environment for the project, and Perens has said all along that providers using UserLinux can customize the distro however their customers want.

Jay (=

The article has confused wording by mjrauhal · 2004-02-01 04:34 · Score: 5, Informative

This is not about UserLinux including KDE
or supporting it. This is about Perens LLC offering
support for UserLinux with KDE added on for paying
customers. Perens has always maintained
that this is an option for any support provider,
as any support provider may offer support for,
say, UserLinux with MySQL added on.

This also means that a service provider supporting UserLinux
does not have to support KDE (or MySQL for that
matter) to live up to their advertising.

Re:Perens LLC by _Pinky_ · 2004-02-01 04:34 · Score: 5, Informative

I'm just guessing all this animosity toward Bruce is done without the recollection of how much he has given back to the opensource community...

He co-founded the Open Source Initiative with ESR..
He was a primary author of the Debian Social Contract..
He helped introduce Linux into the main stream corporate world by being a Linux proponent at HP.
He stood his ground, touting Linux over Microsoft, with disregard toward his employment with HP...
He routinely has showed up any SCO claims...
He often posts here on slashdot!
And, my favorite, he authored ElectricFence, which many of us have used...

And there are probably many, MANY other contributions he has given which I have overlooked..

So please, do give some consideration toward what he has done for all of the Linux community...

kettle calling pot black by iksrazal_br · 2004-02-01 04:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm confused. Perens prefers not to include KDE because they have a lgpl strategy to make money, yet userlinux will charge money to include it. WTF?

Ignore KDE and I ignore userlinux, its that simple.

That's uncalled for by The+Tyro · 2004-02-01 05:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

Perens has given a good deal of his time and energy to the open source community... and as another poster already mentioned, is a frequent /. contributor.

Not to mention (near and dear to my heart) the fact that he's an active HAM radio guy.

Ah well, it wouldn't be /. without ACs taking potshots at everyone...

--
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.

To many toolkits! by BillyBlaze · 2004-02-01 05:07 · Score: 5, Interesting

UserLinux is showing us that it's not yet possible to make a Linux distro with fewer than two GUI toolkits. Actually more, when you figure in FLTK, Motif, XAW, XUL, FOX and so on. This wastes disk space, memory, and developer time, and the end result is an inconsistent GUI with no single place to change the look-n-feel.

I think what Linux on the Desktop needs is something just like X, but with server-side widget-drawing and window management code. The client-server design is what makes X great, and should be kept. But with a default widget set, there'd be one place to change fonts, window decorations, colors, etc. And there'd be less repetition.

It wouldn't be inflexible. A good X replacemnt would have an X-server client so that X programs could run as part of it. So it would still be easy to use your own toolkit if you really wanted to. And the server would have a plugin system to allow a wide range of widget and window styles.

At the moment, I run KDE. I suppose X's architecture is better than Windows's putting everything in kernel-space, but it still pains me. I can't wait until I can easily run something like PicoGUI or Fresco on my desktop.

Re:Reality 1. Bruce 0. by Pentagram · 2004-02-01 05:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

So he's listened to his critics, considered the arguments, changed his mind to come around to your point of view and you're flaming him anyway? That's not exactly the best way to gain future converts.

Can't believe the outrage by GauteL · 2004-02-01 05:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

There are several KDE-only distributions around (Xandros, Lycoris, Lindows), yet no GNOMErs seem to care all that much.

The minute someone tries to create a GNOME-only desktop system, like UserLinux, a flock of people (slashbots) go mental about it. What is the point? There is plenty of room for an integrated GNOME-only desktop.

Choice is good people say, but including both desktop-systems make integration issues a lot more difficult, and resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Plus if choice is good, then having the choice of a GNOME-only desktop is good. Include KDElibs and Qt, and people can still run their KDE-apps.

Re:Can't believe the outrage by morgajel · 2004-02-01 07:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

the big deal is that this is supposed to be a unifying representative of the linux community- a professional and polished face to show the world.

it's not very representational if they don't at lease offer the choice one of the most widely used desktop environments.

I personally think it will be much more likely to be adopted if KDE is included. I base this off of a personal test I performed. when I switched my wife from windows to linux, I let her try several different DE's to see if she could find one she liked. she ended up choosing KDE because it was the most intuitive for a former windows user. This isn't to say that KDE isn't without it's flaws- far from it. it has lots of little problems that irritate the hell out of me.

It all comes down to what their main goal is- if they're trying to steal windows marketshare, they need to (sad to say it) emulate windows as much as possible. I'd bet, given the *choice* between kde and gnome, you're average geek might choose gnome... this this isn't about the average geek. it's a out secretaries and librarians, sales reps and architects. Try explaining "middle click" on a 2 button mouse to your grandfather- I had a hard enough time getting people to learn what "right-click" meant. They're gonna choose the path of lease resistance, and if kde is an *OPTION*, they may choose it simply because it looks and feels more like windows

As you said, Choice is good. But I think "Choice of a ______-only" anything is not a very good choice and will hence go the way of the dodo. It's sorta like getting spending $300 on an Ipod that could only play RealAudio files. userlinux needs every advantage they can get to compete with redhat, windows, and every other distro out there. I think kde *support* would be a great help. I'm not saying to make it the default, just keep include it.

The reason they'd not be including KDE is because of it's use of QT, so I doubt they'll be including QT, meaning kde-based apps won't run. This pretty much destroys your last comments chance of ever happening

This whole thing is a convoluted mess and I'll be the first to admit I don't fully understand WTF is going on. I am curious what the chances are of bruce being able to talk trolltech into releasing an lgpl license of QT, but I get the feeling it's very unlikely.

I'm all for learning so if anyone can help us understand the whole issue, let us know. That being said, back to my gnome workstation.

--
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.

KDE should be developed into an enterprise desktop by StressGuy · 2004-02-01 05:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

I finally had the chance to compare Gnome (2.4) and KDE (3.1.4) head-to-head. While there are things I like about Gnome, I came away feeling that KDE was the better desktop overall. Specifically:
.
While I prefer Mozilla as my browser, Konqueror is a good compliment to it as it will render Microsoft specific pages better than Mozilla. Galeon and Epiphany render the same as Mozilla.
.
I need to get to my office files via FTP and KDE is not only more intuitive, but I can't even get Nautilus to get to all my files because of the non-standard set up of the server.
.
.
Don't get me wrong, I think Gnome is good and I can even see some people prefering it. In fact, there are some things about Nautilus that I really like. However, KDE better suits my needs right now.

--
A goal is a dream with a deadline

And KDE 3.2 is out on Monday by akc · 2004-02-01 05:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

You will find even more to like when 3.2 is out on Monday. I am running a pre-release here, and it is faster, Konqueror seems less dodgy on rendering sites, and there are a range of new facilities,

I don't see any change in his position. by khasim · 2004-02-01 06:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

His COMPANY is willing to provide KDE on UL for a PAYING CUSTOMER.

He is NOT saying that KDE will be included with UL.

He never said that KDE could NOT support a "cottege industry". What he had said was that he wanted to give anyone setting up a "cottege industry" the option to do so without having to pay any license fees to anyone.

He never said that QT wasn't free. He said that, in this instance, he wanted the LGPL instead of the GPL. Again, this is for his "cottege industry".

He has still NOT changed his choice to limit the software included in UL. He still isn't including KDE, but his company will add it on FOR A PRICE.

Hey, if you don't like UL, then don't use it. If it was based on poor choices, then it will fail.

For my part, seeing that Bruce ALREADY has a PAYING CUSTOMER lined up for his company, it seems he has made the correct choice. Bruce will have credibility amongst the people who use UL. I'm sure he doesn't lose any sleep over what other people think.

QT license issues by solprovider · 2004-02-01 06:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

Nobody summarized them this time, so...

Gnome uses GTK+ which is LGPL. Both FSS and proprietary software writers can use it without paying anybody.

KDE uses QT which is dual-licensed GPL and "pay us if you sell an application":
- FSS developers MUST release their software as GPL.
- Proprietary developers MUST pay.

As a software developer, you are better with Gnome or Microsoft than with QT. If all you release is GPL, then it does not matter. If all you ever want to use is GPL, then it does not matter. But if you want to see Adobe Photoshop on Linux, expect your stupid QT license issues to matter, because Photoshop will not be sold with QT.

---
I spent the last week switching between Gnome (RedHat) and KDE (Slackware and a little SuSE) about hourly. I like KDE slightly better AS A USER, but I would not write commercial software for it.

--
I spend my life entertaining my brain.

Re:QT license issues by tackat · 2004-02-01 06:53 · Score: 5, Informative

> As a software developer, you are better
> with Gnome or Microsoft than with QT.

This would be correct if the cost of the Qt license would actually matter compared to the benefits you get by actually using Qt.

In reality the licensing costs for Qt are being weight out by the advantages that you get when using Qt and amortize within less than a month.

Just guess why companies like Adobe, Ati, Boeing, BP, Daimler Chrysler, Disney, Fujitsu, General Electric, Hitachi, Honda, HP, IBM, Intel, Motorola, NASA, NEC, Samsung, Sharp, Shell, Siemens, Sony, Toshiba, Toyota are actually using Qt already for their products.

> But if you want to see Adobe Photoshop on Linux, ... you are wrong concerning this as well.
Adobe already _does_ use Qt for their Adobe PhotoAlbum and there are rumors that they will use it for their other software as well.

Tackat

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