Intuitive Bug-less Software?

Starlover writes "In the latest java.sun.com feature at Sun's Java site, Victoria Livschitz takes on some ideas of Jaron Lanier on how to make software less buggy. She makes a couple of interesting points. First, making software more 'intuitive' for developers will reduce bugs. Second, software should more closely simulate the real world, so we should be expanding the pure object-oriented paradigm to allow for a richer set of basic abstractions -- like processes and conditions. The simple division of structures into hierarchies and collections in software too simple for our needs according to Livschitz. She offers a set of ideas explaining how to get 'there' from here. Comments?"

Comments

Functional Programming et al.

[pc-0x90]

She misuses the term functional programming. I'm assuming she meant imperative languages. A lot of the problems could be solved with true functional languages (Haskell, OCaml, etc) but the learning curve is too high. Especially when you can get a team of second rate VB coders for the price of one haskell coder (if you can find one) But really, do you want working code now? Or perfect code in 10 years? That's where the problem is. Time.

Re:Functional Programming et al.

[Tailhook]

A lot of the problems could be solved with true functional languages (Haskell, OCaml, etc) but the learning curve is too high.

A lot of problems are solved with functional languages. Functional advocates claim to have the answer to software correctness and they decry the present state of imperative logic programming. What I think they fail to realize is that functional programming is ubiquitous, solving problems on a scale that contemporary imperative tools will never approach.

Microsoft Excel is, in essence, a functional programming language. It is utilized by non-"programmers" planet wide every day to quickly, accurately and cheaply "solve" millions of problems. It has, effectively, no learning curve relative to typical coding. I have found it to be an invaluable software development tool. I take it a bit further than the typical spreadsheet task by using to model software systems.

It is especially helpful with business logic problems. I recently implemented a relatively complex web-based product configurator. I know that if I can model the complete problem in a stateless manner using a spreadsheet, writing bug-free, efficient client and server side imperative code becomes a simple matter of translation. For any given state of a collection of inputs there is exactly one atomic result. In this case the result is a (possibly lengthy) structured document computed dynamically from a collection of input forms, both on the client (because page refreshes suck) and on the server (because validation must not depend on an honest client.) Both independent implementations (in different languages) are "obviously" correct in the sense that they are derived from a clear, functional model, built in a spreadsheet.

You may substitute any contemporary spreadsheet product in place of Excel; I have no love of Excel specifically. It's just what I've happened to have handy in all cases. The fact is that modeling most software problems requires very little of what any reasonablely competent spreadsheet can accommodate. Feel free to lecture me on precisely why it is blasphemous to suggest that a spreadsheet qualifies for the designation "functional programming." I know the difference because I've studied LISP and used Scheme. The subset of true functional programming that provides the most value is clearly represented by the common spreadsheet.

The two big reasons software is buggy!

[irhtfp]

This is all well and good, but I think there are two primary reasons software continues to be buggy:

The first is the intense pressure to get the product to market. This is especially true for custom code, written specifically for one client. They want it fast and cheap and in order to satisfy this desire, code invariably gets released/installed before it's ready. Then the "month of hell" starts as the client starts complaining about bugs, "bugs" and other problems and we bend over backwards to get it right.

As a ISV, we have no choice but to do it this way. If we don't quote the project with this in mind, the client will hire somebody else with a better "can-do attitude".

The second big reason software is buggy is because all the underlying tools (e.g. code bases, code objects, .dlls, etc.) are buggy as hell. I spend more time working around inherent bugs than I do debugging my own code.

Most programmers are perfectly capable of making their own code solid, given enough time.

That is exactly the wrong approach

[brokeninside]

To produce bugless software we need to start with software designs that are provably correct and then produce code that is provably in line with the design. Using more objects that more closely model the "real world" is an invitation to producing larger number of bugs as the ambiguity of the real world infects the design and implementation of the program.

sounds like the perfect politician

[circletimessquare]

avoiding the obvious while promising the impossible

this is an exercise in wish-fulfillment, in suspending disbelief

writing software with less bugs by making things more intuitive and less hierarchical?

i mean, that's funny!

we're talking about telling machines what to do, that is what software writing is

writing software is an extremely hierarchical exercise, the art is giving people want they want

Re:I'd rather have...

[MattRog]

Scatological reference aside, I do agree. Not only that, but educate them *properly*. Most higher education these days is a sham. They 'teach' products and not processes, cook-book approaches and not critical thinking.

Dijkstra has a few things to say on the topic as well:

On Education, Specifically:

The ongoing process of becoming more and more an a-mathematical society is more an American specialty than anything else (It is also a tragic accident of history).

The idea of a formal design discipline is often rejected on account of vague cultural/philosophical condemnations such as "stifling creativity"; this is more pronounced in the Anglo-Saxon world where a romantic vision of "the humanities" in fact idealizes technical incompetence. Another aspect of that same trait is the cult of iterative design.

Industry suffers from the managerial dogma that for the sake of stability and continuity, the company should be independent of the competence of individual employees. Hence industry rejects any methodological proposal that can be viewed as making intellectual demands on its work force. Since in the US the influence of industry is more pervasive than elsewhere, the above dogma hurts American computing science most. The moral of this sad part of the story is that as long as the computing science is not allowed to save the computer industry, we had better see to it that the computer industry does not kill computing science.

And then on Computer Science in general:

"I hope very much that computing science at large will become more mature, as I am annoyed by two phenomena that both strike me as symptoms of immaturity.

The one is the widespread sensitivity to fads and fashions, and the wholesale adoption of buzzwords and even buzz notes. Write a paper promising salvation, make it a "structured" something or a "virtual" something, or "abstract", "distributed" or "higher-order" or "applicative" and you can almost be certain of having started a new cult.

The other one is the sensitivity to the market place, the unchallenged assumption that industrial products, just because they are there, become by their mere existence a topic worthy of scientific attention, no matter how grave the mistakes they embody. In the sixties the battle that was needed to prevent computing science from degenerating to "how to live with the 360" has been won, and "courses" -- usually "in depth"!-- about MVS or what have you are now confined to the not so respectable subculture of the commercial training circuit. But now we hear that the advent of the microprocessors is going to revolutionize computing science! I don't believe that, unless the chasing of dayflies is confused with doing research. A similar battle may be needed."
--Edsger W. Dijkstra, My Hopes Of Computing Science, 1979

Why's it so difficult? Duh...

[Cereal Box]

Why is it so difficult, if not impossible, to write bug-free programs that contain more than 20 to 30 million lines of code?

Maybe because the programs contain 20 to 30 million lines of code.

Look, I understand that a lot of people are yearning for the good old days when software was less buggy. You know what? I suppose that if your entire application consists of something like 4000 assembly code instructions, you might just be able to make the program bug-free.

But it's not 1983 anymore and programs are on the order of millions of lines of code. Of course it's not feasible to go over the entire program manually and root out every single bug. The stuff I work with every day is considered extremely small and yet it depends on all sorts of external libraries, each of which may have dependencies, etc. It all adds up to amazingly large amounts of code. But, it requires large amounts of code to do extremely complicated things. Is this a surprise to her or something? I don't think there's any "paradigm shift" in the field of programming that's going to change the fact that:

* Doing complicated things requires lots of code.
* The more code you write, the higher the chance of bugs.

I reiterate: duh...

Re:I found it to be interesting

[ajs]

Perl's OO model isn't.

That's not to say it's bad, but it simply isn't. Perl provides you with all of the tools you need to build a GREAT OO system, but that's not an OO system.

This is one of those things that Larry does that's just unfathomable to the rest of the world. He didn't really grok OO back 10 years ago when P5 was in the works. He understood it well enough to program in the large in C++, but he didn't quite have his head fully around the implications, so when he added OO to Perl 5, he did so in such a way that all of the various ways of approaching code from an OO standpoint could be accomodated.

This means that writing OO code in Perl kind of sucks, but if you want to design an OO model for a programming language, no tool (other than a parser generator) will be more powerful.

Come Perl 6, Larry finally feels that he gets it enough to tell all of the people who are going to have to use his language how to do it. He doesn't take that responsibility lightly, and the fact that SO MANY other language designers do should worry you.

That said, if you want to write medium-sized programs that are heavily OO-dependent, I suggest Ruby or Python or even Java. If you are writing small tools, OO vs non-OO won't matter that much.

If you are building huge systems, then you don't care because the amount of work required to lay out how you will use OO in Perl is insignificant next to the architecture that you have to lay out for the rest of your app. It's just noise in your timeline, and you can fully re-use that policy in every other project that your company tackles.

What's amazing is how Perl lets all of these OO models interact. I'm always stunned by this, and frankly it's a tribute to the language and its designer.

As for your comment about typing less... I don't think that languages with the level of abstraction of Ruby or Perl really need to have line-count contests. Dynamic typing, run-time data structure definition and garbage collection make programming SO much easier that Perl and Ruby are in the same order of magnitude, and I don't see a reason to quibble over the details.