ATI PCI-Express Devices Revealed

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ATI PCI-Express Devices Revealed

Posted by Hemos on Monday February 16, 2004 @02:30AM from the building-towards-the-future dept.

JohnQ writes "According to Xbitlabs and AnandTech, the specifications for ATI's newest graphics cards have been revealed. Interesting to note is that all of these next generation video cards will run exclusively on the PEG (PCI-Express x16) interface. This does not bode well for those of us who just paid top dollar for the last generation of AGP cards. Read more about the roadmaps on Anandtech and Xbitlabs"

26 of 344 comments (clear)

Cheaper prices by di0s · 2004-02-16 02:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

This does not bode well for those of us who just paid top dollar for the last generation of AGP cards.

But it does bode well for those of us who want cheaper AGP Radeons.
1. Re:Cheaper prices by flewp · 2004-02-16 02:34 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  This does not bode well for those of us who just paid top dollar for the last generation of AGP cards.
  
  I actually fail to see why it hurts those of us that did buy the last generation of cards. I needed a video card, this was the best out there (well best bang for the buck) so I bought one. How does this news affect something I did in the past and why would it affect my future? Anyone care to explain?
  
  --
  WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
2. Re:Cheaper prices by Short+Circuit · 2004-02-16 02:41 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  As the parent pointed out, AGP cards may come down in price. So if you just bought the latest Radeon 9800 at $500, you'll have to watch helplessly as others buy it at $50 bargain bin prices a couple years from now.
  
  To be fair, I disagree with the assessment. If AGP cards become rare, while people hold on to their AGP-supporting motherboards (especially those running Athlon64's), their value is going to rise. At least, it'll rise up to just before the point where it's cheaper for people to get a new mb (and RAM, and CPU) along with their video card.
  
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  tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
3. Re:Cheaper prices by ViolentGreen · 2004-02-16 02:48 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  As the parent pointed out, AGP cards may come down in price. So if you just bought the latest Radeon 9800 at $500, you'll have to watch helplessly as others buy it at $50 bargain bin prices a couple years from now.
  
  This is true anyway. This year's top of the line card will be the low-end "bargain card" in two or three years. Anytime you buy the top-of-the-line anything you have to be aware of that. The only difference in this is that you will need a new motherboard for the new cards. But since these cards aren't available yet, what's the big deal?
  
  --
  Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
4. Re:Cheaper prices by JPriest · 2004-02-16 03:36 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  "ATI's GPUs will be available in both PCIe and AGP flavors throughout 2004."
  I guess even the submitter did not RTFA.
  
  --
  Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
buyers of last-gen AGP cards? by SoTuA · 2004-02-16 02:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

Nopes, if all the new products are PCI-X... it doesn't bode well for people who bought high-end AGP-supporting MOTHERBOARDS. Bought it thinking upgrading the vidcard awhile down the road? Think again :/
People who have the last-gen AGP cards will continue to use them...
1. Re:buyers of last-gen AGP cards? by ckotchey · 2004-02-16 02:36 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Note that there are two differnet standards - PCI-X is different than "PCI Express".
2. Re:buyers of last-gen AGP cards? by DrMindWarp · 2004-02-16 02:49 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  PCI-X != PCI-Express
  Check out PCI-SIG.
great! by satramell · 2004-02-16 02:34 · Score: 5, Funny

at least someone besides viagra is concerned about performance enhancments
Nature of the beast by Bronz · 2004-02-16 02:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

"This does not bode well for those of us who just paid top dollar for the last generation of AGP cards."

Come again? Why do people consider than advances in technology retroactively negate past purchases? If you bought a nice AGP card yesterday, it will continue to be a nice AGP card today.
For those of you like me... by zegebbers · 2004-02-16 02:35 · Score: 5, Informative

who know nothing about this so called PCI Express x16, check out these useful sites... True, they're not in english, but as if it's any harder to read than xbitlabs and anandtech ;-) .

--
Unpretentious Sydney reviews by unqualified Sydney reviewers
1. Re:For those of you like me... by wowbagger · 2004-02-16 03:00 · Score: 5, Informative
  In a nutshell:
  
  PCI, AGP, and ISA are all parallel systems - you have a wire for each data bit.
  
  PCI express uses a VERY high-speed serial bus to carry the data. How high speed? One serial channel will carry more data than a standard 64 bit 66MHz PCI bus.
  
  The advantages to a serial system are:
  
  No timing skew. With a high speed parallel bus, you have to insure that all the data paths are the same electrical length, or else some bits get to the card before other bits, and you have to reduce the clock rate to prevent errors. With a serial system you have far fewer lines to worry about.
  
  Simpler board design. When you are dealing with a 64 bit data bus, 64 bit address bus, plus control lines, the board design gets a bit complex. With a serial system, you have less than ten lines per channel - a much simpler board layout.
  
  Serial systems usually use a MUCH lower signaling voltage, resulting in MUCH lower EMI and on-board noise.
  
  PCI express allows you to gang serial channels for more bandwidth. Video card saturating one channel? Use two.
  
  Unlike AGP, PCI express is a bus - so each device can busmaster to system memory or to other cards as needed. This helps you when your video card wants to store textures in system RAM rather than on-card. Imagine how much fun John Carmack could have with a video card that can support 1G of textures.
  
  It is far easier to design disconnects for a serial bus, thus allowing for PCI hotswap. In fact, the PC card group is working on a new standard for PC cards (nee PCMCIA) that brings 2 PCI-X channels to card - Cardbus on steroids.
  
  It is possible to route a PCI-express channel out of the computer case to an external chassis. While this is of limited use to the usual computer user, for guys like me it is a boon to be able to have an external chassis that looks just like it is on the main system bus, because it IS.
  
  PCI express *could* allow you to have a computer that has bays that accept anything - hard disk, video card, extra CPU, NIC, whatever, and plug them it without restarting (unless you are running Windows (cheap shot, as I beleive MS is working on fixing that)). It will allow your video card to REALLY have fast access to system RAM, and especially in 64 bit systems, that could be a LOT of system RAM.
  
  Good stuff - I can hardly wait 'til it becomes commonly accepted.
  --
  www.eFax.com are spammers
Um, no by thetzar · 2004-02-16 02:35 · Score: 5, Informative

JohnQ, are you some kind of idiot? If you READ the article, you'd see that ATI is releasing dual chipsets of identical performance, one each for PCIe and AGP.
Why doesn't it bode well???? by NiteHaqr · 2004-02-16 02:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

Manufacturers will continue to put AGP slots on mother-boards for the next while - as far as I can tell you will be able to plug a PEG gfx card into ANY PEG slot on your board

This just takes us back to the old PCI/AGP days.

No need to spread FUD on the GFX card market - anyone who just paid top dollar will be able to use their top dollar car din their new top dollar PEG capable board for the forseeable future.

What this does herald is the next generation of GFX cards that are coming, but I dont think there
will be much difference between PEG and AGP GFX cards for a while - at least not before the shine on the new FX5950 and 9800's has long worn off.

Standard Slashdot sensationalism (but you gotta love it)
PCI-E about features by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-16 02:38 · Score: 5, Interesting

PCI-E is not about more performance. In fact, a well designed PCI-E card will not show any real deficit in performance vs. an AGP one, provided all other variables are identical.

PCI-E is about making the video processor useful for more than just dumping graphics data. Modern graphics chips are essentially giant geometry calculators, and could be used for far more than they currently are. Due to the fact that PCI-E allows data to be communicated back to the system after it has been processed on the card, this opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. Many 'glitches' in current rendering techniques should dissapear now that the card can relay what the output looks like back to the game driver, allowing it to make on the fly corrections to the image.

PCI-E is all about features, not performance. It should perform like any other interface really, maybe a couple percent faster due to the increased bandwidth, but nothing major. I doubt games will truly begin to take advantage of it for a couple years. Upgrading right now to get PCI-E is ridiculous, however buying a top of the line AGP card at this juncture is equally ridiculous...
1. Re:PCI-E about features by LankyBoycie · 2004-02-16 02:53 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Nope - AGP can go both ways too, this is not a new feature on PCI-Express. PCI-Express is all about replacing PCI and AGP with a common interface.
  Using the host processor "to make on the fly corrections to the image" would be madness as you would have to transfer the whole frame buffer off the GFX card to host mem and then back again. An incredible waste of bandwidth when you can do pretty much most things with pixel shaders anyway, without the round trip.
Took them a while. by NegativeK · 2004-02-16 02:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

Having a single AGP bus has miffed me for a while. I've always wanted to stick my GF 4 and my GF FX in the same computer, but nooo.. It'll be nice when one can run more than two monitors and a very nice quality for a game. =D

Of course, I'll be able to achieve this in four years, when I have enough money.. =T

Three screen Quake3, anyone?

--
This statement is false.
Re:Yeaaaahhhhoooo! by lukewarmfusion · 2004-02-16 02:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

Anand's site often recommends (for users with a budget, anyway) that people buy stuff that will run the software(games) they want to run now. I agree and make this recommendation often.

Don't spend $400+ on a video card for the performance you'll get on a game in a year or two. Spend $200 on a 9700 Pro (or whatever your pref.) for the games you play now. Then spend another $200 in a couple of years for whatever card you need to run your games. Buying top of the line means paying top dollar.

Then again, this is /.
Huh? by SuperBanana · 2004-02-16 02:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

This does not bode well for those of us who just paid top dollar for the last generation of AGP cards
Let me get this straight, you're whining about obsolescence in the graphics card market? What planet or cave are you from? Leapfrogging happens...what, at least twice a year? New GPUs, different VRAM technology, faster PCI bus interfaces...it's old news, and by now anyone who buys a top of the line card should full well know it's going to be next week's "1" on the benchmark scales and worth half as much as it was when they bought it.
In fact, anyone who has bought -any- computer components in the last 30 years should know this, including the people who bought Apple Lisas(Helloooo, $6k down the toilet!)
By all means though, don't stop- if you did, the graphics card market would probably implode, as you're no doubt single-handedly funding the R&D efforts, and those of us buying 1-2 'generations' back want to keep seeing the not-so-latest, not-so-greatest drop in price ;-)

--
Please help metamoderate.
I just paid top-dollar for an AGP card... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-16 02:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

...and couldn't care less that it will be 'obsolete' in a year. If you base all your purchasing decisions on when the latest, greatest thing is coming out, you'll never buy anything.

Yeah, I'll wince when I see the same card I bought last week selling in three months for $100 less, but in the end I don't think I'll have a problem sleeping because of it.
Does this mean anything for non-gamers? by G4from128k · 2004-02-16 02:44 · Score: 5, Interesting

As a non-gamer I am truly curious about the impact of these latest graphics cards for regular everyday use (spreadsheets, word processing, photoshop, etc.). Do these cards do anything to improve 2-D performance (scrolling, image manipulations, large screen displays?). I would assume that the inproved memory bandwidth helps a few percent, but that all the vertex shaders & pipelines mean little to 2-D office and graphics applications.

I'm just curious.

--
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
1. Re:Does this mean anything for non-gamers? by wwwrun · 2004-02-16 03:00 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Of course if you're running OS X or anticipating Longhorn then your whole desktop will be 3d-accelerated. Daft some might say, but why waste all that powerful hardware if it's there? And OS X does look extremely pretty.
Re:Why? by dave420-2 · 2004-02-16 02:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

Try putting two AGP graphics cards into your computer :)
This is the next evolution in peripherals. Every slot in your PC will be able to take every sort of device you can think of, including the latest and fastest video card(s). Like the old PCI-only days, but with better-than-AGP speed, across the board.
Re:Drivers by parksie · 2004-02-16 02:49 · Score: 5, Informative

Linux 2.6 + XFree86 4.3

Enable the "radeon" DRI driver in the kernel, use "radeon" in your XF86Config, and all is good. If you want to stick with 2.4, *disable* all DRI support in-kernel, and grab the DRI project R200 drivers.
asortyl UT2K4 WILL BE BEGGING FOR MORE hagluhsulg by J.+Jacques · 2004-02-16 03:07 · Score: 5, Funny

Want longer, more intense gaming sessions? Try ATI's new line of graphics cards! Using our proven, all-natural herbal formula, you'll be mapping those bumps and shading those pixels like never before! Your computer won't know what hit her, but she'll never be able to get enough! hualw8erlasdhgl39a

--
http://www.questionablecontent.net
PCI-Express == Vector CoProcessor by BuildMonkey · 2004-02-16 03:26 · Score: 5, Interesting

In my lab we're working on surgical simulation including organ physics, cutting, bleeding, etc. We need all the perfromance we can possibly get. The GPU is a monsterously fast parallel vector processing engine, and can be used for non-graphics computation. Asymmetric AGP bandwidth has prevented us from using the GPU as a coprocessor thus far: across the AGP bus you can push data down to the GPU through a firehose, back up through a straw.
AGP was a hack onto PCI. PCI-Express will give us the symmetric bandwidth we need. Yeah!