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Massachusetts' Big Brother Tech to Watch Taxpayers
rocketjam writes "The Boston Globe reports that the Massachusetts state Revenue Department has launched a new technology offensive which strives to piece together all the stray bits of financial information about individual taxpayers that is contained in various public databases in order to catch tax cheats. The databases have been around for years, but technology has only recently enabled the state to assemble and review the information in a time-efficient manner. The so-called 'Discovery' initiative is already bringing in an additional $1 million a week. While denying the state is playing 'Big Brother', the Revenue Department Commissioner, Alan LeBovidge predicted the state may eventually be able to track so much financial information on individuals that the state could complete the citizens' returns for them."
Oh, that's just great... Especially since there's about fifty ways that even a simple tax return can be computed. You've heard of those experiments where they take relatively simple tax information for a fictional family, and send it to 30 different tax accountants, and the result is about 25 or more different returns, ranging from "you owe $1800" to "you're getting $2300 back"? Gee, I wonder which computation Massachusettes would take...
I suppose they think they can include the $20 my wife's employer paid me in cash the other day for fixing one of their computers (it was a pretty minor problem). Granted, $20 doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things - but it is still possible, using greenbacks, to make one's financial transactions very hard to track. Consider people who receive paychecks instead of direct deposit, cash their checks at the grocery store, and keep their cash on-hand. How well do you track that?
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
One would think this could be used the other way around to refund people who have overpaid. Who wants to take bets on whether they'll monitor for this as well? My money is on "not a chance."
While denying the state is playing 'Big Brother', the Revenue Department Commissioner, Alan LeBovidge predicted the state may eventually be able to track so much financial information on individuals that the state could complete the citizens' returns for them.
Considering how much whining the tax software companies did when the IRS wanted to let citizens electronically file for free without needing a tax application to do it, I'm sure they'll whine some more if Massachusetts obviates the need for state tax forms.
but they won't.
They'd never accept the liability for doing the returns.
We're left with all the intrusions and none of the benefits.
Am I the only one that wishes the IRS would sent me a summary of what has been reported to them? At least that way I could reconcile *before* signing my name to something.
t
How about the state not spend so much fucking money? Is it really that hard?
If you live in a state that has a sales tax, you can't really avoid taxes by shopping online, by phone, or by mail. Yeah, you avoid the sales tax, but by causing to have imported into the state a taxable item you owe a use tax, which is usually equal to exactly the sales tax you would have had to pay on an in-state transaction.
The problem is, for an individual, it's hard to collect a use tax on most things. Your state can't ask an out-of-state vendor for their sales records because they're out-of-state and therefore not under your state's jurisdiction. They can't really force you to give a true answer because you have the ability to plead the Fifth Amendment if you're ever accused of not paying a use tax you should have.
It's a problem the states have wanted to solve ever since online shopping got big, but there hasn't exactly been a breakthrough. The states that don't have a sales tax have no reason to help the states that do. Tax classifications can vary from state to state, or even county to county or city by city, so computing what tax is really owed is a complex task that nobody wants to do either. So, it's still one of those problems in the unsolved bin at this moment.
Most citizens' financial information is already known by the government. Working people pay taxes through paycheck withholding. The only ones who can cheat on their taxes in any significant way are corporations who are basically on the honor system when it comes to paying taxes these days. That's who this kind of system is designed to detect. Don't believe the hype. Working people are being ripped off by corporate tax cheats. The tax burden is being shifted to the middle and upper-middle classes while the elites get off scott free.
- Hail to our fearless misleader! Fool speed ahead!
Is that the reactions are too easy to predict. Personally, I like seeing tax cheats get caught, because it means I pay less. As long as there a legitmate system for addressing grievances, I don't see a problem. Big Brother is an overused cliche.
Well, unless those people cashing their checks are being paid under the table, they are probably having taxes taken out for them based on their income linked to their social security number. It doesn't matter how you cash the check, the company has filed what it paid the person with the social security number to the government on their tax return.
And even if taxes aren't taken out, if the person is making over $600 he/she's being 1099'd and again the business is going to be reporting that amount to the government on their tax return.
There are a number of things that still won't be accurately tracked, but it's going to be remarkably easy to keep track of what people are earning from honest and legally operated businesses.
--
RumorsDaily
So what don't you want the state to spend money on? Education? Improving roads? Medicaid?
Apparently it's hard for the millions of Americans in credit card debt, and the thousands of companies that go bankrupt each year.
Why do you expect the government to be any better at handling finances?
Good work.
I know I'm trolling. No need to remind me.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
I'm not a lawyer or a legal expert but something about pulling this data together and possibly going on "witch hunts" smacks of "unreasonable search..." Either way, it's scary.
Happy Trails!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
What the hell do they need that they don't already get? It's all reported! They get a copy of your W-2 forms too, and they get a copy of any other similar forms. I wish the gubmint's computers would just send me a tax refund check Jan 1st instead of making me send them something and then get it back. Better yet, a federal sales tax coupled with a large capital gains tax so the rich don't get off scott-free. Actually, you don't even need the capital gains tax if you make sure the sales tax applies to stock trades etc.
Eat at Joe's.
I work a number of different jobs throughout the year, and have to deal with the considerable annoyance of having each one attempt to deduce what my yearly earnings are going to be and tax me accordingly.
The jobs that pay me $200/week (even if I'm only working two days there) will take out almost no taxes becuase they assume I'm making $10,000/year. When I'm paid $2000 for one week of work, I get taxed on the ludicrous assumption that I'm going to be making $100,000/year. Neither assumption is accurate and both leave the government taking out a grossly incorrect percent of my wages in tax anticipation.
Why can't the government compile a system that will help companies to estimate what my tax payment should be not simply by what I'm being paid in the current week, but by looking back over the whole last year and seeing how much I've made this tax-year (through different employers) and what that average income is going to end up being near.
Better yet, why can't we come up with a system that doesn't depend upon weird estimates as the year goes on, but allows you to announce at the beginning what your income is going to be near and then simply take out the percent that that tax bracket would warrant. Then, if you were accurate, you'd have no refund and no taxes do and you could just fold everything up and go home.
Damned taxes.
--
RumorsDaily
"Information wants to be free", right?
Hasn't this been the whole point of the last century of effort in the field of computing? The constant push for faster processors? The drive for larger, faster storage, in smaller form factors? The constant advances in memory efficiency and effectiveness? For generations now, everybody has been working for smaller, cheaper, faster, computing--working very successfully at it.
Everybody wants it. Everybody wants their information to be more portable, more accessible. That's what the Internet is for. That's why relational databases were invented. That's why SQL and cross-platform development tools are so important. That's why everybody is lusting after Wi-Fi.
It's all so that more information can move with greater speed over greater distances, and be organized and studied with greater ease. That's what you've been working for. That's what you want. It's what everybody wants. The academics who used the original ARPAnet want it. The government wants it. The Open Source community wants it. Microsoft wants it. Your boss wants it. You want it. I want it.
Privacy was an illusion, perpetuated for millenia by a lack of technology. But the information is out there. It always has been. And you want it to be free. Now, you're finally getting what you want, and it's only going to get cheaper and easier from here.
Everything is going according to plan. Your plan.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
I have to agree with the parent. Generally, those who will be affected most are those with some substantial money and knowledge to use sophisticated tax shelters. Obviously, these will usually be businesses (big corporations) and high-powered investors. Typically, somebody making $20K won't have the means or the savvy to cheat taxes with anything more sophisticated than merely lying.
Which is, of course, why some "little guys" will get hurt. I used to wait tables (during college) and many servers would claim only 10% of sales (assuming an average of 15% tips), some would only claim credit card slips (because they are recorded), and some wouldn't claim tips at all. Dangerous because the whole restaurant could get audited, but as far as I know it never did. Of course, many of these people were strapped for cash in one way or another, so it'd be kind of sad how it affects them.
I don't, however, see this as a "Big Brother" thing if there's no direct invasion of our privacy beyond what is already occurring. It says that this tactic collects data it already has and analyzes it to determine potential cheats. The information is already there, it is, I imagine, Massachusetts' right to use it. And at $1M a week, hopefully they put some good use to it.
And hopefully they'll be able to more easily detect and nail Enron/Ken Lay/etc. sorts of investors who act beyond their capacities.
Fortunately democracy allows you to remedy such matters by voting the higher taxing party out of government.
So either the people of Massechusetts are negligent and are forgetting to use their constitutional rights, or they are reasonably happy with their tax levels.
Best wishes,
Mike.
How about you just post as if there is no such thing as karma? Just post with respect and insight. The rest will come in due time, young grasshopper.
Spend money on educating kids, not on the admin that run the damn schools. You can't tell me that you honestly believe that state goverment is ran as efficently as possible.
Someone please tell me how this is a violation of my rights? Seriously. I am normally protective of my liberties but I do not see the connection.
Should the poster feel violated that he may get caught cheating on tobacco taxes?
By the very act of taxing tobacco, hasn't the government been already GRANTED (by the people) this power? I'm assuming that data existed before for people who did NOT cheat, and made some kind of non-cash transaction that required paperwork.
Tax cheating is not a "questionable accounting practice" -- it's shirking your societal obligations and shafting your neighbor with your bill. It's a crime and obviously the penalties are a joke. Forget fining them... send them to Texas for 12 months, so they can make blue jeans and sneakers in the state jails.
Or does the poster feel 'violated' because the government "knows" he purchased tobacco? Woopie. It's a taxable item.
It's not as bad as say, the government illegally tapping your telephone because you buy cous-cous and goat cheeze, violating due-process, Geneva convention un-enforcement, or even FCC censorship crackdowns for the public display of a female nipple.
Please find a real issue to complain about.
First, since the PA legislature has proven itself to be a wholly ineffective system run by ignorant dolts, they could eliminate their automatic pay raises, pet funds, and "perks". Why the fuck they should be able to make the taxpayers pay for half of their goddamn BMW (or an entire Taurus or Impala) when they're making 60K+ per year and can't even pass a fucking budget?.
Then, they could slash the shit out of the pay of the administration that's trying to turn the state schools here into diploma mills for morons with revolving part-time teachers and vastly lowered standards.
After they do that, they could quit paying the many levels of beauracracy in PennDOT that are causing basic reconstruction and maintenance tasks to take three, four, five years at a time over a single 1/2 mile stretch of road.
Oh yea... government spends it's money reeeaaallll well. If I blew my money like these idiots do, I'd be living in a fucking cardboard box down by the river. Frankly, if I thought I could get away with it, I'd cheat them on my taxes based on the fact that all they ever seem to do with the money is waste it anyway.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Why is it so fashionable these days to call things Orwellian when they obvious aren't. I recently saw an excellent BBC documentary on North Korea, and it really reminded of 1984.
Unless you've been commiting serious tax evasion, I doubt you have much to fear. And if you have, I hope this new initiative helps to catch you. People not paying tax raises the amount those of us that do have to pay.
Decode these
so instead of demanding a simpler form, you'd be willing to have them calculate something owed to them that's near impossible to double-check?
even credit card companies are not that dubious with their policies.
something tells me that the same people who are willing to accept a basically unaccountable bill from the government are the same people who don't bother to vote or pay attention to what bureaucrats are doing with our tax dollars.
They're the same overloads as before. They're just more public about it since the Bush administration has laid the groundwork for them to do whatever they want to citizens.
The Bush administration has exactly what effect on state government, again?
(Or, since this is Massachusetts we're talking about, perhaps I should say "commonwealth government" instead.)
IMO Bush is indeed a bad president, but it's reactionary and irrational to blame his administration for EVERY change in government that you don't like.
We are at a cross-roads, my friend.
If GWB wins the next elections, I'll be sitting in the gulags and you'll be posting on /.
Think about it.
Why are you paying your internet bill if you are having a hard time paying your kids?
Right. Let's blame the Bush administration for what happens in Massachusetts. This is the state that the Kennedys run and from which Bush's likely opponent, Kerry, hails, with Uncle Ted's blessing, of course.
Get a grip, Bush-bashers. What the Bush administration is doing was already happening all around the world before G.W. wet his first diaper.
Furthermore, if you're a conservative "thru and thru" I don't see how you could vote for Bush who's spending like a drunken sailor. Not my words, but those of the conservative leadership.
So, they're going to crack down on the cheaters. Do you think this means the tax rate might go down, then? HAHAHAHAHA!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
This time, they're just being more technical about it...kinda scarey though...
Their logic is backwards from the article tho. It says to the effect, 'if you don't want more taxes..pay the ones you owe'
I'd say...if you had more reasonable taxation...we'd be more willing to pay them....but, losing 30% or more our of my paycheck...is ridiculous....and that's just payroll taxes. Then sales tax, use tax, phone tax, gas tax, tax on cable...etc.
Enough is enough I say...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
In other words, implement the most regressive taxation possible, since taxes will be passed on evenly to all consumers whether they make $12K/year or $250K/year. But we agree on one thing: double taxation doesn't make a lot of sense.
I have a better idea. Let's eliminate taxes on corporations and pay for everything solely by a progressive individual income tax. That way the people who benefit from the status quo are the ones paying for the status quo.
It's never made sense to me why anyone, liberal or conservative, would want to tax corporations. From a conservative standpoint, it places an unnecessary drag on the free market, and introduces a pernicious incentive for corporations to directly meddle in politics. From a liberal standpoint corporations provide a social good it would be better to maximize: jobs and economic activity (albeit as a side effect of their actual function, generating profits). Besides, if you think about it, corporations, since they aren't human, can neither enjoy the benefits of government services, nor suffer by their lack. Only individual people can.
As it stands, I think corporate taxes (as long as they can be passed on to consumers) are seen by the wealthy as a way to hide an extra 15% sales tax on all goods and services from those who make less that $35K.
-- Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?
This is the kind of thing that precisely scares me about trying to use the govt. to 'create' jobs. Ditch digging jobs aren't the ones we need....
- We need manufacturing jobs.
- We need skilled labor jobs.
- We need skilled technical jobs.
I don't think higher taxes, to pay ditchdiggers at ditchdigger wages, is the answer to bringing good jobs back to US citizens, and pushing the economy forward...IMHOLight travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Yielding to God's authority and imposing self-control makes it much easier to create a libertarian nation. If control isn't imposed from within, it must be imposed from without, and that way likes authoritarianism.
This is a nice theory, but it ignores christianity's long history of oppression. Imposing self-control (which is certainly helpful for a free society) is entirely unrelated to religion.
2) becoming a Christian (accepting Christ as savior) must be a free choice and not forced conversion
This claim is inconsistent with the practices (such as the Inquisition) of christian churches in the past.
3) a high respect for human life (as its created in the image of God)
Also inconsistent with christianity's past history.
4) "love your neighbor"/"do unto others..." means that Christianity is very close to the libertarian "live and let live in peace". That's what I was getting at.
Unfortunately, while Libertarianism involves a true attitude of living and letting live, christianity (in practice) does not. Just look at the current hatred and bigotry coming from christian organizations these days over the subject of gay marriage.
...gov'ts would have done this earlier - while the Patriot Act presumably made some information easier to get that gov'ts would not have otherwise have gotten, the main impetus driving this collection is the ability to gather personal and financial data using the internet. Once that capability came along, it was only a matter of time. Bush didn't make it possible - the tech did. Once the capacity is there, people want to use to best enhance their power, and bureaucracies (sic) are no different.
Also remember that both Democrats and Republicans gave us the Patriot Act and its spawn - while Ashcroft (and by consequence GWB) can take the blame for some of its misuse, they didn't give themselves this power - our elected representatives did. Something to remember come November.
>
> doing it yourself, or having a 3rd party accountant or software do it is the way you keep the revenue service honest - true to their own convoluted, overly-complex rules.
Doing it yourself also makes it blatantly clear to you that the tax code has nothing to do with raising revenue, and everything to do with social engineering.
Seriously. With respect to those who died on the Challenger, did we really need Congress to direct the IRS to spend time writing up "Astronauts Who Die In The Line Of Duty" guidelines for the 2003 tax year? Do we really need laws that micromanage our lives to the point that seven people on the entire planet (maybe 6, I'm not sure if the law covers the Israeli, but if he earned that income from NASA, perhaps he also has to dual-file with the IRS) get a tax break?
If the goal of tax policy is the collection of revenue to fund projects that the State has decided to commit resources to, the answer is "no".
If the goal of tax policy is to remind the serfs who is Lord and who is Serf, and that the Serfs had goddamn well better keep in their place if they know what's good for them, then the answer is "yes".
Do your taxes by hand with a calculator. And decide for yourself on the basis of your observations, what the tax code is really all about.
I'm not gonna go Randroid and suggest that taxes should be abolished. I'm not even gonna go with my personal opinion that taxes should be reduced.
As someone who lives in America, the land that spends $200 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR in complying with ITS OWN GODDAMN TAX CODE, I am going to go so far as to say the Internal Revenue Code needs to be scrapped and replaced with something less complex, even if tax rates rise under a new system.
Either the US tax code is radically reformed, or I - someone who pays more in taxes than I spend on all other expenses, including my own food, shelter, and entertainment combined - will fucking walk to any country that'll have me.
It is, however, a great way of making sure productive citizens never accumulate sufficient wealth to flee to places where their capital is respected.
It's also a great way of making sure that there's a willing army of ditchdiggers who can always be counted upon to vote for more publicly-funded ditch-digging projects.
As for WMD, Bush acted on intelligence and the need to rid the world of an evil, mass-murdering dictator.
It has been widely reported that the intelligence that was gathered said that Iraq had NO WMD stockpiled. Presented NO real threat to the US. And if anything the country was suffering big time due to the current sanctions and was in no way shape or form ready to be able attack anyone, let alone us.
However, since the powers that be needed some form of scapegoat to show us sheep that we were going to do something about 9/11, Iraq was going to be as good as any target and would present a much lower casulty rate than attacking a real threat like North Korea. What they needed was thou was some "real" reasons to start a war and so any report that was favorable to this was sent right to the top while reports that were contrary to this effort were buried.
In short, you belived what you wanted to just like a good sheep and now stand on your pulpit banging the same lies that they expounded upon before because you'll be dammed if you have to accept the fact that you swallowed all that bs hook line and sinker before. (Don't get me wrong, democrats are just as bad about not wanting to belive that they got lied to and then get busted on it. Which is why someone like Dr. Howard Dean will never become a president. He's too damn honest.)
Bottom line, you were lied to. The truth wants to be free. You don't want to believe it because, gasp! it might actually make the president look like the vote grubbing, oil robbing, coke doing, drunk driving, AWOL loser that he really is. But hey, by all means keep your head in the sand brother! It's the new American Way!
Was it done by the Congress as demanded by the Constitution?
Yes. Or in as much as this war could have been approved by congress. Let me clue you in on a working of the government. All money and spending HAS to be approved by congress. They approved the funds and the usage of troops in Iraq.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984