Slashdot Mirror
DARPA Offers No Food for Thought
frank249 writes "Wired News has an article outlining the US Defense Advanced Research Projects agency's (DARPA) research into ways to keep soldiers fighting for up to 5 days without food. The DARPA project, called 'Metabolic Dominance' or 'peak soldier performance' is part of a wider, future-facing Pentagon research push to develop grunts who are pretty much immune to normal human demands. Perhaps they should call this the Universal Soldier project?"
Science offers us so many incredible possibilities to explore, things that can greatly enhance our everyday lives, and yet our tax dollars go to things like this.
I wish there were a militarily strategic reason to find a cure to cancer, stroke, or diabetes, because they'd all be cured by now just by the amount of money and focus thrown at them.
I also wish there were a law in the U.S. that for every dollar spent on the military, a dollar had to be spent on education.
I can say with authority that we were already asked to do things that were beyond normal human demands.
:)
And I wouldn't exactly call MRE's 'food' anyways, although some of them weren't bad as long as you had hot sauce.
Desert Combat had me not eating, or doing anything for that matter, for a couple days straight...
The Germans pioneered in this research during World War II. They called it "benzedrine."
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
I wonder if they also had a walkman with some heavy trance running...
!
Happy Trails!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
Actually, heroin kind of works. If you take enough of it, you can get shot without feeling it... though if you that much, you'll probably be to catatonic to fight. And also probably not a very good shot. Come to think of it, cocaine is probably a much better battle drug, as it decreases reaction time while increasing motor skills and sensory perception. Though, obviously, both have their downsides ;) Doesn't stop the Air Force from giving their pilots meth though.
The Air Force did the same thing to their pilots flying missions in Afghanistan from bases in Kuwait.
Having lived on MREs (v1.0) in the past while serving, I can see where this is actually a matter of enhancing troop welfare.
(I hear the v2.0 MREs are actually pretty good though.)
Your clever use of selective quotes masks the fact that the education total is for _every single state_! Also you are quoting figures for different years... While in 2003 the government spent $404 billion on 'national defense', it spent almost five times less--$82 billion--on education.
The only way I could even see this being possible is if we stole a little enginuity from plants. Humans are not able to turn fat directly into the sugar they need to survive (the reason why you can't just starve yourself thin), but plants can.
If someone collect a reasonable set of genes necessary to impliment this metabolic short cut, and then devise a method to insert these genes into the genome (probably of the mitochondria). then we could have soldiers who would rarely have to eat. You would just charge the grunts up with tons of pizza, donuts, and crisco before sending them out to battle. They may be a little fat and out of shape when the step on the battle field, but as they fight they will burn it all off by starving themselves.
I see this project as only taking about 50 years, maybe 100 if things don't go too smoothly.
A slightly more realistic goal may be to have soldiers wear beltpacks filled with a glucose solution and a needle inserted into a convenient vein. probably wouldn't last 5 days, and you'd have to worry about infection and carrying all the liquid weight, but it might be worth it to have an unholy army that could march relentlessly for days on end and then fight without tiring for extended periods of time once the got there.
Rice University Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology- "Engineering the freaks of tomorrow"
Actually, you're not far off from the truth. Among other things (namely DXM), Hitler's scientists developed powerful ampamines in an effort to keep soldiers up for weeks on end.
Their efforts resulted in a drug which is being re-synthesized after nearly 30 years, called yaba. Yaba will easily keep you up for 2-3 days; stronger addicts may be able to keep going for the better part of a month. Did I mention that this stuff is several times more addictive than heroin?
I'm not suggesting that this is what DARPA is working on, but I merely cite this as a historical example of the unintended consequences for this type of research.
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
I've always thought there should be no such thing as "rear-echelon" or "non-combat" troops- well, maybe chaplins. The idea of a front line pretty much ended on v.j. day; korea, vietnam, gulf I & II, somalia and all the others have been against scattered insurgents. I think the enlistment contract needs to be rewritten to say "YOU MAY BE SHOT AT! Accept this or leave quietly now" If nothing else, this should have been painfully obvious with what's-her-name from last year, you know, the chick who "joined for college money and ended up as "ms. world famous POW".
and you're out if you don't meet physical training standards
A couple years ago, the feel-good crowd at NPR was comparing OTH discharges for reservists - the Marine reserves as compared to the other N.G. and reserves. They were horrified that the marines would discharge a higher percentage "other than honorable" for things like fitness and attendance and wanted them to "be more like the others", I figure I was the only one listening who wanted the others to act more like the Marines.
At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
Alan Greenspan
Apparently the American pilot was on some sort of amphetamine when he bombed Canadian soldiers participating in training exercises in Afghanistan. He ended up killing 4 of them. But he could have sworn they were shooting at him, despite the fact he was told there would be Canadian soldiers in the area doing training exercises. Makes me think about how many friendly-fire or civilian-casualty incidents are caused by soldiers that have been forced to take these drugs.
I don't think you're entirely right. Look at how tough it is for the real police to have effective checkpoints in dangerous areas like Pakistan/India, Israel/Palestine, etc. If the Army (if you want to be specific, the Army is the only force I know of at these checkpoints, and maybe only Marines would be the other branch there) trained on policing, could they do much better than police?
I read the jokes about Universal Soldier, super soldiers etc etc...but once we start down that path, how far are we from genetically engineered soldiers?
Not very far.
"Normal" people have fat stores of ~11-15% body weight, in excess of the 3% (male) or 15% (female) essential body fat. For your basic 70kg marine, that means about 20 pounds of fat just waiting to be called up.
those drugs are only authorized in specific circumstances, and only to particular individuals.
For instance, pilots are authorized to take amphetamines for going "across the pond" (transatlantic flights), or for very long missions... they're not given routinely to anyone/everyone.
The worst of the negative effects that have been attributed to amphetamines are often dose and duration dependent. Paranoia, hallucinations, tremors, emotional instability... most of those come in people who have been using large doses, or for long periods of time. You can see these effects much earlier in someone with underlying mental illness (you wouldn't want to give these drugs to a bipolar or schizophrenic individual), but those people don't fly fighters.
I don't know what the final story will be on the pilots who bombed those canadian soldiers... but unless the pilot was an undiagnosed schizophrenic, I'd tend to doubt it was a drug-induced hallucination.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Long before the days of the South African government, Zulu warriors took a substance that had a very similar effect to the "bloodlust" spell in WarCraft. It would make the warriors literally "see red" and want to kill everything in sight. I saw it on an episode of the PBS show "Secrets of the Dead". They have a web page about it, but it doesn't make any reference to the bloodlust effects of the drug (I believe it is the Bushman Poison Bulb that has these properties). They also talk about some of the other crazy drugs that the warriors would be doped up on during battle.
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
Yes, it is a trademark of Bayer, but it comes from the German word "heroisch," and means "Heroic Treatment," or, more loosely translated, "Fanfuckingtastic drug." It was sold as a "safe" alternative, as were any number of dangerous substances, to morphine, which had relatively recently been found to be addictive. As such it was used for military purposes, but only in the "aftermath," as an anasthetic, and it was as an anasthetic that it could be used a cough rememdy by numbing the troat.
.200 maybe.
Nor was heroin developed in Germany. It was discovered in England in 1874, at St. Mary's Hospital Medical College where they were seeking such an anasthetic.
Parent poster wasn't completely smacked out. Batting
Other "traditional" drugs have certainly been used in wartime though to encourage heroism, particularly among "native" troops. In southeast Asia during the Vietnam war I have a report that Laotian paratroopers used to wear little carved Buddhas around their necks. Before every jump they would pop the Buddha into their mouth. Thought to be some sort of odd local religious custom, it turns out the Buddhas were carved out of opium.
KFG
The drug is aptly named; it cures diarrhea (remember The Dirtiest Toilet in Scotland?), which is what made malaria so fatal.
In his history _Opium_, Martin Booth estimates that heroin has saved more lives than it has cost.
Yes! I remember seeing this stuff on a another science program where they mixed up an historically-accurate brew (or as close as they could manage) and tested it with a pair of judo students.
First off, they sparred au naturale. They were pretty close in ability, with guy A maybe having a slight advantage over B. Then they did a brief series of physical and mental tests to measure reactions, co-ordination, even logic and short-term memory. Once again, their results were pretty close.
They then both drank "potions". One was the Zulu brew, one was a placebo. The students weren't told which was which (blind test). They then sparred and did the tests again.
Interestingly, guy B kicked guy A's ass in the ring, acting with significantly more aggression and strength. The really interesting bit was that in the tests, many of guy B's scores WENT DOWN, in areas such as fine motor control and logic. Maybe not such a good potion for master-level martial artists, where technique is the deciding factor in a combat, but good for a front-line grunt.
And us soldiers wouldn't have it any other way. Rattling sabers is how this country was built, and how we keep it free. Throw away the millitary, stop showing millitary power and watch just how long it takes before your suddenly under a different power. A life lost in a war is not a waste. At least they died fighting for their country no matter where they are fighting or who they are fighting, they are fighting for their country.
and if your a soldier, not willing to die for your country, your not a very good soldier.
Also, I siad 8000 lives, because it was 2000 dead and 6000 injured, that amounts up to 8000 lives ruined or screwed up by a weak act performed by weak people. Soldiers fighting soldiers is one thing, a few people attacking civilians is another, especially when war had not been declared.
Also in the Marines we understand were paid to be soldiers and shouldn't bitch when were sent off to do our jobs and our families, must understand that as well, we didn't recieve all this training just so we can sit around and not fight.
If you believe in total pacifism, I believe France has open doors for your kind.But if you believe in the honor of battle, the strength of will, and can understand that their are times to fight. We have open arms for you.
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
It came out during the investigation into why the USAF bombed a body of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. It turned out that one of the reasons the USAF's pilots disobeyed orders was that their judgement was impaired because they were high on "speed". These amphetamines were issued to enhance the pilots alertness on long missions.
The trouble was they were so alert they were trigger-happy.
They used Amphetamine (commonly referred to as Benzedrine or "bennies") and also Methamphetamine.
Their Methamphetamine prodution method lives on to this very day, in illicit clandestine drug labs... so-called "Nazi Dope" labs... named after the production method the Germans used for meth manufacture.
Most of the labs that law enforcement agencies clean up, particularly in the midwest, are Nazi Dope labs, primarily due to the easy availability of one of that production method's reagents (anhydrous ammonia).
Just FYI.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Clearly US economic interests can't be asserted to satisfaction with their current army and Weapons Of Mass Destruction.
... apart from me, because I'm locked up for 10 years for taking some Ecstacy and proclaiming my love for life.
But it's easy to see why some people could find this a little disturbing, or even hypocritical. You see, from my point of view, I understand that Australia's drug prohibition laws are a direct result of pressure from the US government. When I go out to a rave to have a good night ( or 2 ), and take a very soft drug that gives me a little energy ( and God forbid, makes me happy ) my government reserves the right to arrest and gaol me for 'breaking the law'. But when the US military use drugs regularly to increase their 'effectiveness as killing machines', that's the best thing since sliced bread.
Of course creating drug-fucked killing machines that go on the rampage for 5 days straight has no affect on the families of said soldiers when they return home from the killing fields. In fact they promptly return to what is wildly recognised as normal behaviour for US citizens, and everyone lives happily ever after
Fuck the US.
Indeed correct. A certain amount of...errr..enthusiasm is encouraged in the military, but outright teeth-gnashing fury is frowned upon everywhere except maybe the infantry. Even then, only when appropriate and control is emphasized.
There's a good reason that MREs come with Tobasco sauce
I thought it was because the crap they had in MREs tasted bland as all hell so as not to offend officers delicate palates. Could be multiple motives though... :)
I'd like to have somebody post as AC that has been in a tank for 4 days and taken these drugs. What does meth do for and to you? Exactly?
Never spent four days in a tank but I did spend most of a five-day field exercise in either an EFV or the back of a Hummer while tweaked out on meth. It makes the tedious, repetetive parts (guard duty, radio monitoring, or anything electronic warfare related*) much easier, but it starts to cause problems after a couple days of not drinking enough water or sleeping. The problem is that when you're given time to rest, you can't because you're still wired. The only choice is to not take any speed several hours before a rest break, but then you're tired for those several hours. It's really not a good solution for extended combat. I only did it the once, and swore I never would again. By day 5 I thought I was going to die. I was totally exhausted for three days after. While everyone else was enjoying the time off they gave us afterward, I was sleeping in the barracks. Not very efficient use of chemicals, if you ask me.
* EW is very boring. You have one guy (98J?)trying not to fall asleep while waiting for his radar detector to go bleep. Two or three guys (98G and 05H) listening to static on radios waiting to hear someone say something or use a morse key. Then you have one or two analysts (98C) filling out contact reports and waiting for the Golfs or DitDahs to come to life and start typing so you have something to analyze. I had picked 98C SigInt Analyst because I thought military intelligence would be interesting. Doh.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.